HOMOSEXUALITY REVISITED

[Selene]

I don't think debating with you on this will gender anything constructive in the long run. As you may know "anyone convinced against their will is of the same opinion still".

I responded to David's post when he posted: " If it takes only one sin to earn a person spiritual death, then every sin is serious."

I simply quoted scripture showing that there are some sins that don't lead to death according to St. John. Your argument is that St. John was referring to a physical death and pointed to 1 Corinthians 11, which you took out of context. What you are saying is that those who ate and drank the bread and wine physically died because they did not discern that what they were eating and drinking was the actual body and blood of Christ. It was not a physical death because they didn't just keel over and died right after they ate and drank.

In the same way, God told Adam and Eve that on that day when they eat of the forbidden fruit, they would die. Adam and Eve did not physically die on that day. They physically died many years later. But on that day, they spiritually died.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Sad to say, you are the one that is misquoting the scripture so lets look at it.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples.

John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Jesus was speaking to Jews that believed on him. The discussion about sin and judgment had passed.

Three things are pointed out here. Continuing in His word. Being his disciples. Knowing the truth that will set them free. This has nothing at all to do with sin and judgment as those who are bible literate and don't use any verse to make a point, which sad to say, you have done, which suggests you can't find any verse that says that if you tell the truth you are being judgmental.

You couldn't have misunderstood me more if you gave it your all. I don't know who you're preaching at, but it isn't me.

Nowhere in the New Testament do I find evidence that homosexual behavior is the unpardonable sin.

And in fact there is no single sin that is the "unpardonable sin". I like how Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answer Man) explains it. What's unforgivable is a progressive hardening of the heart to the point one can blaspheme even the Spirit of Truth. It's not something that's stumbled upon, it's a culmination of resisting the love and grace of God. Homosexuality can be forgiven and that's the message we should lead with when witnessing to homosexuals.

 

[Dodo_David]

And in fact there is no single sin that is the "unpardonable sin". I like how Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answer Man) explains it. What's unforgivable is a progressive hardening of the heart to the point one can blaspheme even the Spirit of Truth. It's not something that's stumbled upon, it's a culmination of resisting the love and grace of God. Homosexuality can be forgiven and that's the message we should lead with when witnessing to homosexuals.

That is my point. Thank you for rephrasing it.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I simply quoted scripture showing that there are some sins that don't lead to death according to St. John. Your argument is that St. John was referring to a physical death and pointed to 1 Corinthians 11, which you took out of context. What you are saying is that those who ate and drank the bread and wine physically died because they did not discern that what they were eating and drinking was the actual body and blood of Christ. NO dear, that's transubstantiation Such as I don't hold to and scripture does not teach! It was not a physical death because they didn't just keel over and died right after they ate and drank. Who said they had to?

The principle in 1 Cor gives us a clue as to what John would be referring too. It also holds good in the OT. As to the dropping dead thing you missed the thrust of the scripture -Failing to discern/judge own behavior & discipline from God even unto death if they have past the point of no return, to which only God knows.

Finally, to shed a little more light on the subject, here is another and for those who have ears to hear will understand the mind of God in this matter.

James (5:14, 15)—[SIZE=13.5pt]"The prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."[/SIZE]

 

[Selene]

The principle in 1 Cor gives us a clue as to what John would be referring too. It also holds good in the OT. As to the dropping dead thing you missed the thrust of the scripture -Failing to discern/judge own behavior & discipline from God even unto death if they have past the point of no return, to which only God knows.

Finally, to shed a little more light on the subject, here is another and for those who have ears to hear will understand the mind of God in this matter.

James (5:14, 15)—[SIZE=13.5pt]"The prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."[/SIZE]

Of course you don't believe in the actual body and blood of Christ being present in the Eucharist despite the fact that it is there in the Holy Bible. That is why St. Paul says that some of them were weak, sick, and fallen asleep....because they were not discerning what they were eating and drinking. You're only looking at one line....."discerning their behavior" and not looking at the entire context of what St. Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 11. St. Paul ends that chapter by telling the Corinthians that if they are hungry to eat at home. When they gather together to break bread, they are not to eat the way they eat at home.

As for James 5, what has that have to do with the two different type of sins? There are two different types of sins as St. John says. The lesser sins do not lead to death. Your only argument is that you are assuming that it is a physical death instead of a spiritual death.

So, let me see if I understand you correctly according to this biblical passage written by St. John.

1 John 5:15-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

So, according to your view....the lesser sin does not lead to "physical" death, but the greater sin leads to "physical" death??. Murder is a very grave and serious sin. So, why didn't murderers physically die?? Or are you going to tell me that those who commit the lesser sin did not "physcially" die, while those who committed the greater sin died a "spiritual" death, not a "physical" death??

We will all eventually die a "physical" death regardless of the kind of sins we commit. But the one who commits a lesser sin (what we call "venial sins")...their souls are not lost in the fires of Hell. Sins hurt the souls of people. Diseases and illnesses hurt the bodies.

 

[Rex]

The sin unto death is unrepentant hearts

I like Matthew Henry's condensed commentary on 1 John 5:13-17

1 John 5:16 I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death, that is in reference to the saved man still trapped in a body of rebellious flesh destine to die. It is not the type of sin but who has sinned. In this case it's a Spirit filled believer. That is the only way to interpret it because all sin leads to death, that is a closed door to everyone unless you be found in Christ.
1 Cor 15:53-54

In short your looking to add weight and gravity to sin, this is not the subject or point of 1 John 5

Commentary on 1 John 5:13-17

(Read 1 John 5:13-17)
Upon all this evidence, it is but right that we believe on the name of the Son of God. Believers have eternal life in the covenant of the gospel. Then let us thankfully receive the record of Scripture. Always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that our labour is not in vain in the Lord. The Lord Christ invites us to come to him in all circumstances, with our supplications and requests, notwithstanding the sin that besets us. Our prayers must always be offered in submission to the will of God. In some things they are speedily answered; in others they are granted in the best manner, though not as requested. We ought to pray for others, as well as for ourselves. There are sins that war against spiritual life in the soul, and the life above. We cannot pray that the sins of the impenitent and unbelieving should, while they are such, be forgiven them; or that mercy, which supposes the forgiveness of sins, should be granted to them, while they wilfully continue such. But we may pray for their repentance, for their being enriched with faith in Christ, and thereupon for all other saving mercies. We should pray for others, as well as for ourselves, beseeching the Lord to pardon and recover the fallen, as well as to relieve the tempted and afflicted. And let us be truly thankful that no sin, of which any one truly repents, is unto death.

 

[Selene]

The sin unto death is unrepentant hearts

I like Matthew Henry's condensed commentary on 1 John 5:13-17

1 John 5:16 I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death, that is in reference to the saved man still trapped in a body of rebellious flesh destine to die.
1 Cor 15:53-54

In short your looking to add weight and gravity to sin, this is not the subject or point of 1 John 5

Commentary on 1 John 5:13-17

(Read 1 John 5:13-17)
Upon all this evidence, it is but right that we believe on the name of the Son of God. Believers have eternal life in the covenant of the gospel. Then let us thankfully receive the record of Scripture. Always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that our labour is not in vain in the Lord. The Lord Christ invites us to come to him in all circumstances, with our supplications and requests, notwithstanding the sin that besets us. Our prayers must always be offered in submission to the will of God. In some things they are speedily answered; in others they are granted in the best manner, though not as requested. We ought to pray for others, as well as for ourselves. There are sins that war against spiritual life in the soul, and the life above. We cannot pray that the sins of the impenitent and unbelieving should, while they are such, be forgiven them; or that mercy, which supposes the forgiveness of sins, should be granted to them, while they wilfully continue such. But we may pray for their repentance, for their being enriched with faith in Christ, and thereupon for all other saving mercies. We should pray for others, as well as for ourselves, beseeching the Lord to pardon and recover the fallen, as well as to relieve the tempted and afflicted. And let us be truly thankful that no sin, of which any one truly repents, is unto death.

The human body is perishable and mortal. The soul is imperishable and immortal. In the end of the world on Christ's second coming, the human body will change. It will become a glorified body like Christ, who rose from the dead in body and spirit. The glorified body is imperishable and immortal.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Rex]

I added a bit more to my post but as usual you had alread pulled the trigger on your reply

1 John 5:16 I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death, that is in reference to the saved man still trapped in a body of rebellious flesh destine to die. It is not the type of sin but who has sinned. In this case it's a Spirit filled believer. That is the only way to interpret it because all sin leads to death, that is a closed door to everyone unless you be found in Christ.
1 Cor 15:53-54
At least it took you 5 min this time instead of 5 sec.
Give it a bit of thought Selene

 

[Selene]

I added a bit more to my post but as usual you had alread pulled the trigger on your reply

1 John 5:16 I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death, that is in reference to the saved man still trapped in a body of rebellious flesh destine to die. It is not the type of sin but who has sinned. In this case it's a Spirit filled believer. That is the only way to interpret it because all sin leads to death, that is a closed door to everyone unless you be found in Christ.
1 Cor 15:53-54

At least it took you 5 min this time instead of 5 sec.
Give it a bit of thought Selene

There is some sort of weight to sin. The two types of sin that St. John spoke of is what we call "mortal sin" and "venial sin." There are three criterias in committing a mortal sin. Mortal sin is extremely serious and if the person does not repent from a mortal sin, they will be in Hell. The lesser sins is what we call "venial sins." An example of a venial sin is when a person did something unknowingly or was forced into doing something against his will or under threat of death or torture.

 

[Rex]

I well aware of your churches position on the gravity of different sin, and they will lead you by the hand to the verse in question, but it's not about different sin it's all about the people that sin. To say that one sin doesn't lead to death and another does is a complete injustice other verses.

Romans 6:23
James 1:15
1 Cor 15:22

The only reason I'm posting this is not to change your mind, but to show others to not engage the enemy on his ground.
Being lured into a discussion on the gravity of sins is foolishness.

IMO of course

 

[Selene]

I well aware of your churches position on the gravity of different sin, and they will lead you by the hand to the verse in question, but it's not about different sin it's all about the people that sin. To say that one sin doesn't lead to death and another does is a complete injustice other verses.

Romans 6:23
James 1:15
1 Cor 15:22

The only reason I'm posting this is not to change your mind, but to show others to not engage the enemy on his ground.
Being lured into a discussion on the gravity of sins is foolishness.

IMO of course

Rex, all of us have sin. But God is the one who will judge us because he's the only one who knows the heart of a person. The gravity of sin is not foolishness. If a mother deliberately uses abortion like birth control, that is a very serious sin. There are actually mothers who have had six abortions and don't think anything of it. To kill an unborn child is murder. It is a mortal sin. On the other hand, if a 16 year old teenage girl found herself pregnant and being pressured by her parents to get an abortion...that's a different story. This 16 year old pregnant teen feels trapped. She doesn't want to get an abortion, but her boyfriend abandons her, and her parents threatens to kick her out of the house if she does not get an abortion. If her parents drags and pressures her into abortion, God knows her heart. And God will be the judge of which of these mothers will be condemned. And thank goodness, it is God who makes those judgement calls. Why? Because all of us are sinners and only God knows the heart of a person.

 

[marksman]

I SAID; I am not aware of any scripture that says if you tell the truth you are being judgmental. I do know that if you know the truth, it will set you free.

Vale of Tears said: It really is one of the most misquoted scriptures in the Bible, particularly by those who aren't even Christian to begin with and want a cudgel to keep us from speaking the truth. Those of us who are Bible literate know Jesus was saying not to judge hypocritically.

I said: Sad to say, you are the one that is misquoting the scripture so let’s look at it.

Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, If you continue in My Word, you are truly My disciples.

John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Jesus was speaking to Jews that believed on him. The discussion about sin and judgment had passed.

Three things are pointed out here. Continuing in His word. Being his disciples. Knowing the truth that will set them free. This has nothing at all to do with sin and judgment as those who are bible literate and don't use any verse to make a point, which sad to say, you have done, which suggests you can't find any verse that says that if you tell the truth you are being judgmental.

VOT said: You couldn't have misunderstood me more if you gave it your all. I don't know who you're preaching at, but it isn't me.

Just to make clear. I don't preach at people as that is not my gifting.

Two things. If you look at all the above comments, it is obvious that you have not been misunderstood and it is obvious that my responses are in response to what YOU said. If they are not, can you tell me who said what you said.

venial sin."

Excuse my ignorance, but where does it talk about venial sin in the New Testament?

 

[Selene]

Excuse my ignorance, but where does it talk about venial sin in the New Testament?

Where does it say "Bible" or "Holy Trinity" in the New Testament? Just because it isn't there does not mean there is no Bible or Holy Trinity.

1 John 5:15-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

"Venial sins" are the sins that don't lead to death (as St. John speaks of). But you can always call it "sins that don't lead to death" if you want.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Excuse my ignorance, but where does it talk about venial sin in the New Testament?

Where does the Bible grant itself status as the sole and final arbiter of doctrine and Christian teaching?

There is some sort of weight to sin. The two types of sin that St. John spoke of is what we call "mortal sin" and "venial sin." There are three criterias in committing a mortal sin. Mortal sin is extremely serious and if the person does not repent from a mortal sin, they will be in Hell. The lesser sins is what we call "venial sins." An example of a venial sin is when a person did something unknowingly or was forced into doing something against his will or under threat of death or torture.

An example I like to use to demonstrate the different indictments of sin is when Jesus tells Pilate "Therefore, the one who delivered me to you has the greater sin." What delegates people to perdition isn't any single sin, but rejecting the love and grace of God. Put more simply, those who choose to live apart from God will continue to do so in eternity; and that decision was made over many acts, not just one.

 

[marksman]

"Venial sins" are the sins that don't lead to death (as St. John speaks of). But you can always call it "sins that don't lead to death" if you want.

Thankyou Selena for that explanation but that is not what I asked for. What I wanted to know where "venial sin" is spoken of in the New Testament. In other words, what verses talk about "venial sin" and that doesn't mean what man thinks is venial sin.

TVOT asked - Where does the Bible grant itself status as the sole and final arbiter of doctrine and Christian teaching?

John 5 v 24; John 8 v 31; Hebrews 6 v 1; 2 Timothy 3 v 16; Titus 2 v 10; 2 John 1 v 9; Revelation 2 v 15; Revelation 3 v 8.

Selene said - Where does it say "Bible" or "Holy Trinity" in the New Testament? Just because it isn't there does not mean there is no Bible or Holy Trinity.

You do realise I hope that the word Bible does not appear in the New Testament because it did not exist when it was written? It is very hard to write about something that is not there, unless you indulge in science fiction.

And I hope you realise that the New Testament as a whole is a testament to the existence of the Holy Trinity as all three persons of the Godhead are spoken of numerous times leaving no doubt as to their existence.

Selene said - I know of someone who prayed for her homosexual son to give up homosexuality. God answered her prayers. This does not mean that her son is no longer a homosexual. I'm sure he may still find men attractive, but he gave up the ACT of homosexuality. He is no longer living that lifestyle

Just to clear up a misunderstanding about this topic. When a person gives up homosexual activity he ceases to be homosexual as what he does makes him homosexual. Having an attraction to men does not make him homosexual the same as having an attraction to the opposite sex does not make a person heterosexual.

Both have a sexual attraction or orientation to their respective sex but it only becomes a matter of fact when they involve themselves in acting it out.

I know of a 70 years old who is single and has never married (he is famous) and people have said he must be homosexual. He admits that he had sex with a woman twice before he converted to christianity, but has been celibate since.

Is he homosexual or heterosexual? Not relevant according to him because he admits to having no interest in sex.

One other point. To say "I am sure he still finds men attractive" sounds to me that he may not find men attractive anymore so making pronouncements about what may or may not be true is unethical.

 

[Selene]

Thankyou Selena for that explanation but that is not what I asked for. What I wanted to know where "venial sin" is spoken of in the New Testament. In other words, what verses talk about "venial sin" and that doesn't mean what man thinks is venial sin.

I already answered that question in my post, and I even gave you the biblical verse for it.

You do realise I hope that the word Bible does not appear in the New Testament because it did not exist when it was written? It is very hard to write about something that is not there, unless you indulge in science fiction.

And I hope you realise that the New Testament as a whole is a testament to the existence of the Holy Trinity as all three persons of the Godhead are spoken of numerous times leaving no doubt as to their existence.

I still don't see the word "Bible" or "Holy Trinity" in any of the New Testaments. You can claim that the existance of the Holy Trinity as all three persons......but there is nothing in the Bible that says "Holy Trinity." So, where did the words "Bible" and "Holy Trinity" come from??......certainly not from scripture. It is the same with the word "venial sins."

 

[marksman]

I already answered that question in my post, and I even gave you the biblical verse for it.

No you didn't as the verse you gave does not contain the word "venial."

I still don't see the word "Bible" or "Holy Trinity" in any of the New Testaments.

You are stubborn Selena. Let me put it another way. 20 years ago you would not have seen the words "cruise control" in any car advertising for the simple reason it did not exist. The word Bible was not mentioned because it did not exist as a concept. Tell, me How can you talk about something that does not exist?

You can claim that the existance of the Holy Trinity as all three persons......but there is nothing in the Bible that says "Holy Trinity."

There is plenty of evidence for the Trinity in the New Testament. They just didn't call it a Trinity. If I talk about me, my wife and my child, obviously I am talking about a trinity, but no one calls us a trinity but it doesn't alter the fact that we are.

So, where did the words "Bible" and "Holy Trinity" come from??......certainly not from scripture.

Christian use of the word bible ("the books") can be traced to circa 223 AD. The biblical scholar F.F. Bruce noted that Chrysostom appears to be the first writer in his Homilies on Matthew, delivered between 386 and 388, to use the Greek phrase ta biblia ("the books") to describe both the Old and New Testaments together.

And as we know, the New Testament was written long before that date.

As for the term "Trinity" Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity", "person" and "substance" to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "one in essence—not one in Person".

It is the same with the word "venial sins."

I don't think so as these facts will show.

"Each venial sin that one commits adds to the penance that one must do. Penance left undone during life converts to punishment in purgatory. A venial sin can be left unconfessed so long as there is some purpose of amendment. One receives from the sacrament of reconciliation the grace to help overcome venial, as well as mortal sins. It is recommended that confession of venial sins be made. Venial sins require some kind of penance."

This comment makes it quite clear that venial sin is a concoction of the Roman Church in an attempt to build a system of religious activity that enables it to control those who are part of it. I say this because there is nothing about doing penance in the New Testament for sin. There is nothing about purgatory in the NT. There is nothing about a sacrament of reconciliation in the NT. There is nothing about mortal sin in the NT.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Rex, all of us have sin. But God is the one who will judge us because he's the only one who knows the heart of a person. The gravity of sin is not foolishness. If a mother deliberately uses abortion like birth control, that is a very serious sin. There are actually mothers who have had six abortions and don't think anything of it. To kill an unborn child is murder. It is a mortal sin. On the other hand, if a 16 year old teenage girl found herself pregnant and being pressured by her parents to get an abortion...that's a different story. This 16 year old pregnant teen feels trapped. She doesn't want to get an abortion, but her boyfriend abandons her, and her parents threatens to kick her out of the house if she does not get an abortion. If her parents drags and pressures her into abortion, God knows her heart. And God will be the judge of which of these mothers will be condemned. And thank goodness, it is God who makes those judgement calls. Why? Because all of us are sinners and only God knows the heart of a person.

What you have described above is nothing less than 'situation ethics'. Your good works for salvation campaign doesn't cut the mustard.

Again. I think it wholly improper that a Catholic would instruct the children of light(elect) on the things of GOD. Why? As one has to have the spirit of GOD(Christ) to understand the mind of God. You can do so much with the intellect as shown by you, but beyond that you're in the dark.

 

[Selene]

No you didn't as the verse you gave does not contain the word "venial."


You are stubborn Selena. Let me put it another way. 20 years ago you would not have seen the words "cruise control" in any car advertising for the simple reason it did not exist. The word Bible was not mentioned because it did not exist as a concept. Tell, me How can you talk about something that does not exist?


There is plenty of evidence for the Trinity in the New Testament. They just didn't call it a Trinity. If I talk about me, my wife and my child, obviously I am talking about a trinity, but no one calls us a trinity but it doesn't alter the fact that we are.


Christian use of the word bible ("the books") can be traced to circa 223 AD. The biblical scholar F.F. Bruce noted that Chrysostom appears to be the first writer in his Homilies on Matthew, delivered between 386 and 388, to use the Greek phrase ta biblia ("the books") to describe both the Old and New Testaments together.

And as we know, the New Testament was written long before that date.

As for the term "Trinity" Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity", "person" and "substance" to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "one in essence—not one in Person".


I don't think so as these facts will show.

"Each venial sin that one commits adds to the penance that one must do. Penance left undone during life converts to punishment in purgatory. A venial sin can be left unconfessed so long as there is some purpose of amendment. One receives from the sacrament of reconciliation the grace to help overcome venial, as well as mortal sins. It is recommended that confession of venial sins be made. Venial sins require some kind of penance."

This comment makes it quite clear that venial sin is a concoction of the Roman Church in an attempt to build a system of religious activity that enables it to control those who are part of it. I say this because there is nothing about doing penance in the New Testament for sin. There is nothing about purgatory in the NT. There is nothing about a sacrament of reconciliation in the NT. There is nothing about mortal sin in the NT.

I already told you that venial sins are defined as sins that don't lead to death. You don't see the words "venial sins" in the Bible?? Well, you don't see the words "Holy Trinity" in the Bible as well.

And for your information, St. Jerome used the word "venial sins." In fact, he used both venial and mortal sin. According to St. Jerome:

“There are venial sins and there are mortal sins. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe but a farthing. We shall have to give an accounting for an idle word no less than for adultery. But to be made to blush and to be tortured are not the same thing; not the same thing to grow red in the face and to be in agony for a long time . . . If we entreat for lesser sins we are granted pardon, but for greater sins, it is difficult to obtain our request. There is a great difference between one sin and another" (Against Jovinian 2:30 – 393 AD)

As for Tertullian........yes, he used the word "Holy Trinity", but he also used the word "mortal sin." And if he used the words "mortal sin", then he was fully aware of what venial sins are. After all, he and St. Jerome were not living that far apart in time. According to Tertullian:

“Discipline governs a man, power sets a seal upon him; apart from the fact that power is the Spirit, but the Spirit is God. What, moreover, used [the Spirit] to teach? That there must be no communicating with the works of darkness. Observe what he bids. Who, moreover, was able to forgive sins? This is his alone prerogative: for ‘who remits sins but God alone?’ and, of course, [who but he can remit] mortal sins, such as have been committed against himself and against his temple?" (Modesty 21 – 220 AD)

What you have described above is nothing less than 'situation ethics'. Your good works for salvation campaign doesn't cut the mustard.

Again. I think it wholly improper that a Catholic would instruct the children of light(elect) on the things of GOD. Why? As one has to have the spirit of GOD(Christ) to understand the mind of God. You can do so much with the intellect as shown by you, but beyond that you're in the dark.

We are saved by Grace. And grace comes through faith which is expressed through works, for we are created to be God's workmanship to do His work rather than our work. The Holy Bible is against "faith alone."

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[aspen]

Cutting the mustard? Lol, is that like making a 'mute point'?