Homosexuality

[Vengle]

Salvation is about transformation and redemption, not about how much knowledge we have.

Don't wise yourself right out of that transformation. What you just said is not only meaningless but it is also dangerous if believed.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

What is it about truthful and important words that make that true?

Proverbs 2:1 ¶My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
10 ¶When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
15 Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;
17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God.
18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead.
19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.
20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.
21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.


Stop ignoring the answers the scriptures give you. You nullify God's words when you do that.

That transformation is this:

Ephesians 4:23-24 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

You are living dangerously to believe what you believe. And that would be OK for you but that you see yourselves as teachers of God's Word and so do harm to others with such faulty truths.

 

[aspen]

Don't wise yourself right out of that transformation. What you just said is not only meaningless but it is also dangerous if believed.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

What is it about truthful and important words that make that true?

Proverbs 2:1 ¶My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
10 ¶When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
15 Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;
17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God.
18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead.
19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.
20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.
21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.


Stop ignoring the answers the scriptures give you. You nullify God's words when you do that.

That transformation is this:

Ephesians 4:23-24 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

You are living dangerously to believe what you believe. And that would be OK for you but that you see yourselves as teachers of God's Word and so do hram to others with such faulty truths.

Think about the Pharasees for a minute.....they were dead right. They had all the knowledge needed to contract their way into a relationship with God. Jesus saw them as paper tigers....He cut across their dualism with love. They could have past any written test on doctrine and theology, but they missed the larger point......love. We were created to be in relationship with God and each other......our transformation is the path back to becoming fully human....it requires lots of practice serving and loving our neighbor under the guidance of the HS. Our redemption is acheived when we can love like a human was created to love...selflessly. it can only be acheived complete,y in Heaven. That is salvation. Some people need a more complete understanding of doctrine than others before they begin overthrowing the old man/ego/false self.........the part of us that is selfish and afraid, which leads to a puffing up. God only knows our True Self.....selfless, secure, redeemed..........those choosing to ignore His invitation to love by hiding in their heads for example will be asked to depart from Him because He will not recognize them.

By the way, I do not consider myself a teacher...I am merely giving my theological opinion, just like everyone else who posts here.

 

[lawrance]

I see what Vengle is saying is the truth and others are trying to twist his words for their own ends.

 

[Vengle]

Yes, I tend to speak in general terms. I am addressing the general lack of regard I see for knowledge. I will speak more about what I see later (if I can remember ).

You bring up a good point. But those Pharisees did not have the knowledge you think.

Paul said: Romans 10:2 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

I think I see some hint though that you are correctly distinguishing between mundane knowledge (which of itself has no value in making us a better person) and the "epignosis" of Romans 10:2.

The Greek word "gnosis" means knowledge. So what Paul said at Romans 10:2 has extra meaning. The Greek preposition "epi" means basically "to rest upon" or "to sit upon" and it denotes that action of assuming that position.

Therefore "epignosis" means a more intimate knowledge (a more complete knowledge).

The Pharisees had knowledge but they lacked that deeper more vital knowledge.

At 1 Corinthians 8: 1-3 what Paul is really telling us is that the absence of love causes that incompleteness of our knowledge. Paul is not at all trying to tell us that we are not dependent upon knowledge.

As we continue to grow in love we will continue to grow in our knowledge.

But without love our knowledge will remain incomplete and only really be right in our own eyes.

 

[Vengle]

By the way aspen, I also like that comment by Rach which you keep in your Signature window.

"We must hold tightly enough to our doctrine to let it guide our lives, but not so tight that it cannot be guided by scripture. - Rach"

What I see is that quality knowledge has gotten lost in this world by the rush of everyone to be able to say that they know.

Does that make any sense to you? Did I say it clearly enough?

In the frustration of beginning to recognize that I too began pushing the "All We Need is Love" idea, not seeing that I yet had more to learn.

I mean, sure, I would tell you that I had more to learn. Looking back on that I realize that though I was sincere when I would tell you that, none-the-less, I had no idea what I yet had to learn and certainly thought that I knew something.

1 Corinthians 8:2 "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."

I was very good at running with that incomplete knowledge. Perhaps I even excelled the Pharisees. :lol:

Look around us. People are spending all of their value transformation time (time that could be used by the quickening power of God's Word for beneficial recreation of their heart, mind, and soul) on mundane debates that even if they prove right only are good to boost their ego.

Where I was when I first began to see that allowed me to throw the baby out with the bath water. By that point in time of my growth, I saw that love was the important thing but was hindered at growing in my love for allowing my repulse at the greedy rush for knowledge that I saw to cause me to dismiss the importance of the right kind of knowledge right along with the more mundane knowledge.

I have been a lover of God from diapers. I know of many people who could swear to you that is not true of me. They witnessed the external symptoms of the internal tribulations in this man and probably thought I was a demon at times. I sure felt like a demon at times.

The Bible does not lie one iota when it says that God absolutely scourges anyone He receives as a son.

Please do not ever think I am dogging you. I dog myself. I speak nothing too you but that which God had to teach this fool in some very tough ways.

 

[goodshepard55]

Vengle, darling I hate to burst your bubble, but I consider myself to be growing each day in Christ, darling I walk with Him hand in hand...if you could see the miracles I see daily, you would understand...I can take your advice and would consider it closely, if for one minute I thought you were correct, if you were my best friend and saw me daily, then I would consider closely what you say, I would talk with my Pastors and ask them to verify what you are saying. Darling, I have to walk with God so close I feel His breath on me...Let me tell you a little about my self..I run a charity full time, one that was started by myself and husband with the guidance of the Spirit of God..We are full time volunteers, we do not get a paycheck, we live on faith totally, I can say I live a very full and blessed life. God has not let me down one time, never has He denied me anything I have desired. I only have to ask for food and get pallet loads, I have to very specific with my Father, for you see He has a great sense of humor. He loves to have someone drive up and unload a semi full of rice only, or a semi load of clothes all in one size...

When I first came to Australia, I thought I knew Jesus, I thought I had a relationship with Him...Boy was I ever wrong, He has turned me inside out, and then put me back together into what He desired. I have a Father that delights in giving me things, I have a Father that has taken a broken heart, mended that heart and shown me what love really is, one that has stripped away the pain of sexual assault, and showed me how to totally trust others, one that has taken the anger, the foul language and turned it to one of peace and happiness and nicer words. A Father that sends others to me, that have been assaulted or beaten so bad they can hardly see, because He knows I have felt their pain, and will lay down my life to protect them from ever going through that again...

Like I said my Father loves me, and I worship Him, one that has shown me not to judge others as I judged myself. One that has shown me to forgive others, but most important to forgive myself. So darling when God get finished with me here, He will send me home and I will throw open the doors of the Pharisee Church, and bring the Holy Spirit alive there...I will stand in my post and pray against the religious spirits that invade the churches of America, I will pray they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I will have great pleasure, changing peoples minds about the gifts of the Spirit...Love you darling and praying for an invasion of the Spirit of God in the churches of my great country...

Shep

Just food for thought...I do not receive any funding from this great country of Australia, no government funding what so ever. We run on donations only, and out of $32,000 last year..we gave away 1.3 million in goods and services..since we only received $7,000 this year Christmas was going to be really tough on the families we support. We have about 100 kids that we want to supply toys for...So I get a phone call the other day, asking me if we would like to be the beneficiary of a fundraiser for Christmas. Of course I said yes...expecting 200-250 people at this fundraiser...They have to bring a new toys of gift for children, well I find out later that it is by the gay community...I laughed so hard, because sure enough my Father is showing me something..and guess what that is? It is to go out there and tell them how much He loves them and how much He wants a relationship with them, how much He wants to be apart of their life. To show how a follower of Christ is suppose to treat others, I might not like their lifestyle, I do not agree with same sex marriage or partners, He does not agree, but guess what ...It is not up to me to change them, that is His department, I am just to love them, and tell them about Him and what He has done for them...Have a blessed night or day...and remember God loves ALL..sinner that I was, He never left me, He stood beside me weeping at my pain and at the pain I was causing Him, for He died for all, and until I realized that very fact, I could not heal or forgive...I could not let Him off that cross...

 

[Vengle]

That is a beautiful attitude Shep.

There is no way that I am saying we need to be 100% correct in all of our knowledge. That is why I emphasize the need to distinguish between what is essential and what is more mundane.

Philippians 1:9 "This I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment;
10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent; that you may be sincere and without offense to the day of Christ;
11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God." [World English Bible]

PS/ Don't ever worry as though I have a bubble to burst. :lol:

I used to have though.

Thank God for helping me grow out of that.

 

[jiggyfly]

I really enjoyed your post Shep, thanks.

 

[biggandyy]

Veggie, I saw what Vash wrote and I discount in on the grounds that the harder one repents does not equate to greater rewards or salvation either in this life or in the next. "I [the Lord] desire obedience, not sacrifice" means we can repent until we are blue in the knees (that is our version of sacrifice in this dispensation), what the Lord wants is us to obey. There is no extra reward for our obedience, that is, after all, our reasonable service (Rom 12:1-2).

God has already given us our reward, salvation through Christ Jesus! Begging for more is tantamount to saying "My eternal life is not enough, give me more." How self centered and greedy that opinion is.

 

[Vengle]

Veggie, I saw what Vash wrote and I discount in on the grounds that the harder one repents does not equate to greater rewards or salvation either in this life or in the next. "I [the Lord] desire obedience, not sacrifice" means we can repent until we are blue in the knees (that is our version of sacrifice in this dispensation), what the Lord wants is us to obey. There is no extra reward for our obedience, that is, after all, our reasonable service (Rom 12:1-2).

God has already given us our reward, salvation through Christ Jesus! Begging for more is tantamount to saying "My eternal life is not enough, give me more." How self centered and greedy that opinion is.

Well :lol: Oddly enough you and I agree on that.

The only difference may be that I see repentance only as genuine if it produces obedience.

Repent means to turn around from the old way and walk in a new way. When one turns around and away from disobedience and starts walking consistently in obedience, that is repentance. Anything short of that is a facade of repentance.

I will take one step further. God owes me nothing. He does not have to give me everlasting life just because I am obedient to Him. But still, I owe Him to be obedient to Him for the very breath I take in and out all day long everyday that he allows it.

 

[us2are1]

If you are receiving help from evil people How is God Helping you? will you stand before the throne of God Holding the possessions of evil deeds and say "God has given them to me to help others"? You deceive yourself and you have allowed the devil to destroy your understanding. Now Go out and in faith feed five thousand with two Loaves, that were attained by righteous means, Then God has given you something to Help others with. The testing grounds are on the horizon. The day is about to dawn. True faith in God alone is about to be tested. Billions will die because they can not bring water out of the face of the rock and manna down out of the sky. Why? Because their faith is not in God but in the perversions of this world which will soon pass away. The transition into the kingdom of God is about to start and only those of faith in God will survive.

 

[jiggyfly]

If you are receiving help from evil people How is God Helping you? will you stand before the throne of God Holding the possessions of evil deeds and say "God has given them to me to help others"? You deceive yourself and you have allowed the devil to destroy your understanding. Now Go out and in faith feed five thousand with two Loaves, that were attained by righteous means, Then God has given you something to Help others with. The testing grounds are on the horizon. The day is about to dawn. True faith in God alone is about to be tested. Billions will die because they can not bring water out of the face of the rock and manna down out of the sky. Why? Because their faith is not in God but in the perversions of this world which will soon pass away. The transition into the kingdom of God is about to start and only those of faith in God will survive.

And the people of Israel did as Moses had instructed; they asked the Egyptians for clothing and articles of silver and gold.36 The Lord caused the Egyptians to look favorably on the Israelites, and they gave the Israelites whatever they asked for. So they stripped the Egyptians of their wealth!
Ex 12:35-36 (NLT)

 

[Buzzfruit]

Veggie, I saw what Vash wrote and I discount in on the grounds that the harder one repents does not equate to greater rewards or salvation either in this life or in the next. "I [the Lord] desire obedience, not sacrifice" means we can repent until we are blue in the knees (that is our version of sacrifice in this dispensation), what the Lord wants is us to obey. There is no extra reward for our obedience, that is, after all, our reasonable service (Rom 12:1-2).

God has already given us our reward, salvation through Christ Jesus! Begging for more is tantamount to saying "My eternal life is not enough, give me more." How self centered and greedy that opinion is.

God is giving us other things in addition to eternal life. The Jesus says the Father is giving us the kingdom. The the scripture also says those who overcome will inherit all things.

 

[us2are1]

And the people of Israel did as Moses had instructed; they asked the Egyptians for clothing and articles of silver and gold.36 The Lord caused the Egyptians to look favorably on the Israelites, and they gave the Israelites whatever they asked for. So they stripped the Egyptians of their wealth!
Ex 12:35-36 (NLT)

The Point being that all of the wealth of this world will not be able to buy a single mouth full of water in the bitter destruction that is coming.
None of mans creations or support will make it threw into the Kingdom of God.
Every bit of water and food on earth is all going to dry up and be gone in less than a year leaving two and a half years of nothing for seven billion people to share.
It is time to begin building faith in the lord alone.
Remember Elijah and the widow? You will have to at least have the faith of Elijah to survive.
Remember Moses and the rock gushing water? You will have to at least have the faith of Moses to survive.

 

[us2are1]

God ended up destroying all of people who came out of Egypt. Because of what they took out of Egypt, mainly in their heart. David tells about it in this psalm.

Psalm 106
13 They soon forgot His works; They did not wait for His counsel,
14 But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, And tested God in the desert.
15 And He gave them their request, But sent leanness into their soul.
16 When they envied Moses in the camp, And Aaron the saint of the Lord,
17 The earth opened up and swallowed Dathan, And covered the faction of Abiram.
18 A fire was kindled in their company; The flame burned up the wicked.
19 They made a calf in Horeb, And worshiped the molded image.
20 Thus they changed their glory Into the image of an ox that eats grass.
21 They forgot God their Savior, Who had done great things in Egypt,
22 Wondrous works in the land of Ham, Awesome things by the Red Sea.
23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them.
24 Then they despised the pleasant land; They did not believe His word,
25 But complained in their tents, And did not heed the voice of the Lord.
26 Therefore He raised up His hand in an oath against them, To overthrow them in the wilderness,
27 To overthrow their descendants among the nations, And to scatter them in the lands.
28 They joined themselves also to Baal of Peor, And ate sacrifices made to the dead.
29 Thus they provoked Him to anger with their deeds, And the plague broke out among them.





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[aspen]

You have been quite clear in your posts. vengle and I appreciate our dialog.

 

[Vengle]

Ahhh...Vengle...I do think that Vashti was actually talking to me...I have a God of mercy, love and grace Vashti..I have a God that does not turn the sinner away, when they repent, whether they be 10, 50 or dying...The Word says...That ALL who believe in Him has every lasting life...Some do not believe until they are staring death in the face, then they call on the One True God...Go to work in a hospital...see what I am talking about....Love you darling and enjoying your post...

Please understand that I was not in reference to anything you said in any of your posts. I was addressing only the point that Vashti was making. I do not know what you said that spurred it. So if you imagine I was speaking about you or your comment you are mistaken.

The point Vashti made (irregardless of why he saw a need to make that point) is all I was addressing. I believe that point fit well with what I was discussing with the party to whom I was speaking.

So no, no counsel was being given to you by me.

I thought I would let you know that because it only now dawned on me that is how you perceived it.

That just goes to show I have no bubble. :lol:

It is next to impossible for anyone to offend me these days. I am free from all men.

To the extent that men have power over us to offend us, to that extent we are as a slave in their hands. The truth of Christ sets of free from that and many more forms of captivity. It gives to us a sharing in God's tranquility.

 

[Vengle]

If you are receiving help from evil people How is God Helping you? will you stand before the throne of God Holding the possessions of evil deeds and say "God has given them to me to help others"? You deceive yourself and you have allowed the devil to destroy your understanding. Now Go out and in faith feed five thousand with two Loaves, that were attained by righteous means, Then God has given you something to Help others with. The testing grounds are on the horizon. The day is about to dawn. True faith in God alone is about to be tested. Billions will die because they can not bring water out of the face of the rock and manna down out of the sky. Why? Because their faith is not in God but in the perversions of this world which will soon pass away. The transition into the kingdom of God is about to start and only those of faith in God will survive.

Did I see you once standing in the rain on a New York street corner? :lol:

Or was it somewhere in Missouri?

 

[jiggyfly]

The Point being that all of the wealth of this world will not be able to buy a single mouth full of water in the bitter destruction that is coming.
None of mans creations or support will make it threw into the Kingdom of God.
Every bit of water and food on earth is all going to dry up and be gone in less than a year leaving two and a half years of nothing for seven billion people to share.
It is time to begin building faith in the lord alone.
Remember Elijah and the widow? You will have to at least have the faith of Elijah to survive.
Remember Moses and the rock gushing water? You will have to at least have the faith of Moses to survive.

No the point I was making was the error in your previous post. You condemned someone from accepting funds from a homosexual group on the premise that it is wrong to use such money to help others and that God would not do such a thing.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

If you are receiving help from evil people How is God Helping you? will you stand before the throne of God Holding the possessions of evil deeds and say "God has given them to me to help others"? You deceive yourself and you have allowed the devil to destroy your understanding. Now Go out and in faith feed five thousand with two Loaves, that were attained by righteous means, Then God has given you something to Help others with. The testing grounds are on the horizon. The day is about to dawn. True faith in God alone is about to be tested. Billions will die because they can not bring water out of the face of the rock and manna down out of the sky. Why? Because their faith is not in God but in the perversions of this world which will soon pass away. The transition into the kingdom of God is about to start and only those of faith in God will survive.

Firstly, God causes all things to work for the good of those that love Him.

Secondly, Every single company I have ever worked for has been crooked. Even the one I currently work for that claims to be Christian. Having a job and working (which is good) and recieving money from a company that does wrong is what?

If someone from the Mafia gave you $1million, what would you do? They wont take it back, and you have the money. Is it sinful to feed the poor with the ill gotten gains of criminals? If you're talking about doing something wrong to get money, then I agree.

Edited to add:

Isn't this supposed to be a debate on if homosexuality is a sin?