How are miracles performed?

[Adam]

The question - "how are miracles performed?", has a very obvious answer - God does it whenever He chooses an appropriate time, and I don't dispute that miracles are ultimately by God's will; but with humans as the intermediary, what role does an individual play in the unfolding of the miracle?

There are examples of people in the Bible who try to cast out demons in the name of Jesus, but fail - which I have difficulty understanding. In fact, Jesus even criticizes them for this, implying that they should have been able to do this, and the fact that they cannot do this (or other miracles) indicates that there is something wrong with their strength of will.

Matthew 17

18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Acts 19

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Similarily, Peter was able to walk on water, and only sank when he doubted:

Matthew 14

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

So there is a personal prerequisite of faith that the miracle will occur in order for it to happen. If one has any doubts there will be a miracle, it will fail.

Now there are stories of people who took LSD and jumped out a window because they thought they could fly (and their belief did not save them) so clearly just believing something will happen is not enough to make it happen; but there is a definite trend in the Bible of people being required to believe as a prerequisite for a miracle to be possible. When Jesus comes to His own country, he does not perform any great miracles (aside from some healings) because the people there do not believe.

Matthew 13

54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

So a potential conclusion is, God will only perform miracles as a reward, to confirm the faith of those who already trust Him, but will do them freely for those who truly believe (within reason - Jesus still refused to turn stones into bread or throw Himself from a cliff when tempted by Satan).

But things are still unsettled, because there is a passage which indicates an additional condition of the human soul, beyond belief, which seems to be a prerequisite for performing great works. Namely: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

In Acts, we see these exact things unfolding, and it is always by individuals who "receive the Holy Spirit". Now if you ask any Christian if they have the Holy Spirit, they will say Yes, because they believe... but there is a passage that contradicts the idea that all Christians will indwell the Holy Spirit through belief alone.

Acts 8 (NIV)
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

The people of Samaria already believed, already accepted the Word of Jesus, and had already been baptized in the name of Jesus... and still lacked the Holy Spirit. How is this even possible? Yet when the apostles laid their hands on them, something happened. It was not specified what exactly what, but it was visible to onlookers and so impressive that Simon the sorceror offered the apostles a bag of gold if they would teach him how to do it.

So, I am at a loss. I don't suppose anyone here knows how to perform miracles or we'd be living in very interesting times. But it seems like there are two conclusions from these passages that I find troubling:

1. Faith and baptism in Jesus is not synonymous with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a special quality not given to every believer; and receiving the Holy Spirit is an event which visibly changes a person.

2. A person with the Holy Spirit can (or should be able to) call upon a miracle by their own initiative.

So - what exactly must a person do to receive the Holy Spirit in such a way as the Samaritans did? And what kind of miracles does Jesus expect His followers to perform? And consequently - does it indicate a moral failure in a person to be unable to perform or witness a miracle?

 

[Randy Kluth]

So, I am at a loss. I don't suppose anyone here knows how to perform miracles or we'd be living in very interesting times. But it seems like there are two conclusions from these passages that I find troubling:

1. Faith and baptism in Jesus is not synonymous with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a special quality not given to every believer; and receiving the Holy Spirit is an event which visibly changes a person.

2. A person with the Holy Spirit can (or should be able to) call upon a miracle by their own initiative.

So - what exactly must a person do to receive the Holy Spirit in such a way as the Samaritans did? And what kind of miracles does Jesus expect His followers to perform? And consequently - does it indicate a moral failure in a person to be unable to perform or witness a miracle?

Faith Doctrine is a bust because it turns into a formula things that biblically are explained as a Walk with God. When a person walks with God he learns what is his own will and what is God's will. There's a lot of leeway in what we choose to do, but in matters that require miracles there has to be a sense of what God Himself wishes to do, precisely because He is the one doing it!

When men get baptized, go to church, or express faith that Jesus is Messiah, those things do not require walking with God. At best they are the beginning of that--something that requires growth, spiritually. One does not know God well as an infant. One has a lot to learn and to grow up in as he learns what walking with God means.

Some people grow up in church and go through religious rituals originally designed for those who are spiritually reborn. And so, many who grow up in church get baptized by rote, and have yet to really experience spiritual conversion.

They don't yet have a sense of the Holy Spirit. And they certainly aren't going to see miracles when they don't have a real sense of the God who performs them. In Nazareth those who didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God saw few miracles.

And then there are those who do sense the Holy Spirit, and go through the various Christian rituals. But they never really commit themselves fully to God as Lord.

And so, they live out carnal lives, disguised in religion, but only serve God spiritually on occasion. They may experience the Holy Spirit, and they may even work miracles as they testify to Christ. But it doesn't mean they're saved. Judas Iscariot apparently did this!

One thing that is vital when serving God in Signs and Wonders is that the person be living in concert with God's will and Spirit. Walking with God he learns to pursue what God is interested in along with what he himself is interested in.

In this condition a person can expect that as he does things to testify to God that God Himself will confirm the works as done in concert with Himself. Signs and Wonders may mean miracles, or they may mean coincidences. Or, they may mean conviction from the Holy Spirit. But God confirms His own word.

The Apostles did miracles because Jesus told them they were doing a special service in bringing the Gospel to the world, and becoming the foundation upon which the Church is built. And they were told miracles were important as a Sign in this.

Do miracles still happen, well after the Apostles have died? Yes, but again, it depends on what God wishes to do to confirm His word in our lives.

We just need to walk with God and learn to hear Him and so live in a pleasing way for Him. He will show us when to expect miracles or not, and He will provide the necessary signs and wonders.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

So, I am at a loss. I don't suppose anyone here knows how to perform miracles or we'd be living in very interesting times. But it seems like there are two conclusions from these passages that I find troubling:

1. Faith and baptism in Jesus is not synonymous with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a special quality not given to every believer; and receiving the Holy Spirit is an event which visibly changes a person.

2. A person with the Holy Spirit can (or should be able to) call upon a miracle by their own initiative.

Preventing the 'loss' and winning with God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided - ie:

God's Context Of:
prophecy/covenants, twelve apostles, gospel of the kingdom to/for Israel.
with:

Filling Of The Spirit, By Covenant Promise, for power, signs, and wonders...
...Confirming The spoken word...until The Written Word is Completed...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

God's Other Context Of:

ONE apostle, Gospel Of Grace, The Completed Word Revealed
(The Mystery = Rom - Phm), and Written to/for The Body Of Christ,
with, The Filling Of The Spirit, By faith, for ALL-Sufficient Grace - ie:

God's GRACE Word for our infirmities
---------------------
Precious friend:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!

 

[Aunty Jane]

So, I am at a loss. I don't suppose anyone here knows how to perform miracles or we'd be living in very interesting times.

First of all we need to consult the Bible and see what miracles are and what they accomplished?
Were they to last up to our day?

Some miracles were seen in the OT, but more in the NT with Jesus and his apostles. Those acts that God performed that are amazing to humans, are merely the exercise of his power.....IOW miracles are a big deal to humans because they are outside of our natural capabilities, but they are no big deal to God who provides the power to perform them. Holy spirit is the exercise of God's power.

Reading through the NT accounts of miracles, we can see something familiar in all of them.
Revelation 21:2-4 is a prophesy about what we can expect the world to be like once God's kingdom rules this earth.

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

If we read the creation account in Genesis and see why all those unfortunate things became part of our life, Revelation is God's promise that all the things that cause pain, suffering and death will be done away with. Those "former things" will no longer exist.

Look at the miracles that Jesus and his apostles performed....every one of them was a foregleam of the things we can look forward to in the new world to come under the rulership of Christ and his elect.
We see a healing of the sick, no matter what affliction they suffered....and we see a raising of the dead so that families were reunited with a lost loved one. We see other miracles of that time that would not really be considered 'miracles' in our day....for example the speaking of different languages that were not learned by the person speaking them. This facilitated the preaching of Christ's message in Jerusalem for visitors from different lands hearing the word of God in their mother tongue.....often called "the language of the heart".

At the time when the holy spirit was poured out on Jesus' disciples after his ascension.....Acts 2:5-8 says...
"At that time devout Jews from every nation under heaven were staying in Jerusalem. 6 So when this sound occurred, a crowd gathered and was bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were utterly amazed and said: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·leʹans, are they not? 8 How is it, then, that each one of us is hearing his own native language?"

Not really a modern day miracle because we have devices now that can translate one language into another and web sites that are available in all languages. All can access the word in their native language, but this does not detract form the miracle back then.

But it seems like there are two conclusions from these passages that I find troubling:

1. Faith and baptism in Jesus is not synonymous with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a special quality not given to every believer; and receiving the Holy Spirit is an event which visibly changes a person.

The holy spirit is what helped those in the first century to perform supernatural feats, but according to Paul, once the Christian congregation were firmly established and growing stronger, the need to see miracles was replaced with something much more important.

In his beautiful description of what "love" is and what it is not, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, Paul said...
"Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

So, giving way to the need to see miracles, which Paul sees as "the traits of a child", he said that now in order to 'grow up' or to mature, "faith, hope and love" were to be the primary evidence of the true Christian faith, and having seen the miracles back then and we can read about them in God's word, people could put their full confidence in God's promises for those things to become a permanent reality under the incoming Kingdom of God in the future. For now, we are stuck in the devil's world, filled with misery and suffering, until God removes him.

2. A person with the Holy Spirit can (or should be able to) call upon a miracle by their own initiative.

Not so....if miracles were a temporary demonstration of things to come, then no miracles were to be expected after the apostolic period, since it was only the apostles who could pass the gifts of the spirit on to others. The miracles accomplished what God sent them to do but they were not to be permanent. When the apostles died, the gifts died with them....but not the "faith, hope and love" that they engendered in Christ's disciples for the future.

It is noteworthy to realize that "miracles" and "powerful works" in the latter periods, were attributed to the devil and the apostasy that he created. The devil is a trickster who can mimic healing and the speaking of tongues....but the one thing he cannot do is raise the dead. If genuine miracles were still happening then every hospital would have those miracle workers and no one would die or remain ill. The scriptures tell us that thousands of people turned up to experience those miracle and hoped even for the shadow of one of the apostles to fall on them and make them well. (Acts 5:15-16) The miracles were never performed on believers...only on unbelievers to bring them to Christ.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians....concerning "the man of lawlessness" who would be misleading people into ever deeper apostasy, he said...
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved."

We have to keep our wits about us because the devil is crafty and he knows the allure of the supernatural. He too can do supernatural things and present himself as "an angel of light" encouraging his ministers to do appear to do likewise. (2 Cor 11:14-15)
But can you not see what would happen if both God and the devil were competing with miracles? How would we know which were the genuine ones? This way we do know.....miracles today do not come from God. They are a satanic hoax and can only entrap the spiritual babies...those who have not 'grown up' to manifest the more important traits that Paul mentioned.

So - what exactly must a person do to receive the Holy Spirit in such a way as the Samaritans did? And what kind of miracles does Jesus expect His followers to perform? And consequently - does it indicate a moral failure in a person to be unable to perform or witness a miracle?

Miracles today don't mean anything, but that the devil is trying to fool people into falling for his tricks. The holy spirit today works in a much more direct way...on the hearts of individuals because as Jesus said....
John 6:44, 65...
"No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him. . . .This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

There is no failure in not manifesting the miracles in your life...it is proof that the devil has not misled you.....and hopefully once armed with the truth...he never will.

 

[St. SteVen]

Great thread. Thanks for posting this.

The people of Samaria already believed, already accepted the Word of Jesus, and had already been baptized in the name of Jesus... and still lacked the Holy Spirit. How is this even possible? Yet when the apostles laid their hands on them, something happened. It was not specified what exactly what, but it was visible to onlookers and so impressive that Simon the sorceror offered the apostles a bag of gold if they would teach him how to do it.

I recently launched a topic on this exact question. Here's the link.

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? (2)

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit? Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else. Acts 8:14-17 NIV When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that...

www.christianityboard.com

So, I am at a loss. I don't suppose anyone here knows how to perform miracles or we'd be living in very interesting times. But it seems like there are two conclusions from these passages that I find troubling:

As you stated in your opening, miracles are from God, not from us.
Even Jesus performed miracles in his humanity, not in his deity. (some will be offended by that)
How could expect us to do miracles if you have to be God to do them?
He said we would "do greater things..."

1. Faith and baptism in Jesus is not synonymous with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Having the Holy Spirit is a special quality not given to every believer; and receiving the Holy Spirit is an event which visibly changes a person.

My topic briefly covers the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. That is key.

2. A person with the Holy Spirit can (or should be able to) call upon a miracle by their own initiative.

I would say, never by our own initiative. Even Jesus looked to see what the Father was doing and partnered in it.
Jesus said, "I do nothing on my own..." - John 8:28 NIV

If we want to do miracles, we need to be a "do nothing". - LOL

I act when God speaks to me. Typically, "Talk to that person." (a complete stranger)
To which I ask, "What should I say?" A question that is always met with silence. (sigh)
When I obey, it becomes obvious to me.

So - what exactly must a person do to receive the Holy Spirit in such a way as the Samaritans did? And what kind of miracles does Jesus expect His followers to perform? And consequently - does it indicate a moral failure in a person to be unable to perform or witness a miracle?

My topic covers this pretty well. Read and post questions there.

The question - "how are miracles performed?", has a very obvious answer - God does it whenever He chooses an appropriate time, and I don't dispute that miracles are ultimately by God's will; but with humans as the intermediary, what role does an individual play in the unfolding of the miracle?

Correct.
We need to make ourselves available for the Holy Spirit to manifest any spiritual "gift".
In fact, "gifts" is a misnomer from my perspective. We don't own the gifts, the gifts own us.

 

[Behold]

The question - "how are miracles performed?", has a very obvious answer - God does it whenever He chooses an appropriate time, and I don't dispute that miracles are ultimately by God's will; but with humans as the intermediary, what role does an individual play in the unfolding of the miracle?

Regarding the unbeliever, God sets aside all laws that govern nature and time, and miraculously changes whatever bad circumstance is the problem, into a corrected or restored event, that can be instant or over time.

Regarding the Born again.....Then "Christ in you" who is connected to your spirit, who Himself is Life, restores health from inside you, or He changes the circumstance that is harming your life, by removing it, or restoring it over time or miraculously.

The role the believer has, in all this, is to believe and receive.

God is touched by our tears and our pain........... but its our Faith that activates the miraculous.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As you stated in your opening, miracles are from God, not from us.
Even Jesus performed miracles in his humanity, not in his deity. (some will be offended by that)

Of course we *should* be offended by that! Only Deity can perform miracles *by definition!* If everybody could perform miracles, then it wouldn't be a "miracle!"

How could expect us to do miracles if you have to be God to do them?
He said we would "do greater things..."

Nobody has to be God to do miracles. One must be given by God to do miracles, or they couldn't be done. People must be led by God to do miracles, or they can't be done.

I would say, never by our own initiative. Even Jesus looked to see what the Father was doing and partnered in it.
Jesus said, "I do nothing on my own..." - John 8:28 NIV

I would absolutely agree with this. We need to be "led" to do miracles.

If we want to do miracles, we need to be a "do nothing". - LOL

I wouldn't say we need to be a "do nothing." We aren't blind followers, but rather, partners with God. The role we play and the role God plays is an interplay. And yet, God must take the initiative in order to accomplish the miracle. The best we can do is to either make the request or to follow orders.

We need to make ourselves available for the Holy Spirit to manifest any spiritual "gift".
In fact, "gifts" is a misnomer from my perspective. We don't own the gifts, the gifts own us.

On the contrary, "gifts," by definition, are given to somebody. We therefore "own" the gifts. And yet these gifts operate by an interplay between God and ourselves so that we use them in partnership with God. He must always play a role in the working of miracles, just as He plays an essential role in the performing of our personal gifts.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a matter of total commitment to the ways of Christ, to the guidance and partnership of the Holy Spirit. And yet, it can be viewed both as a "slavery" and as being an "heir" of what God owns, the rights of children to their Father's inheritance.

We are enslaved, in our flesh, to the ways of the Spirit. And yet, after committing to the ways of the Spirit, we are then obligated to follow the Holy Spirit, who is then given to us, to help us live out the spiritual gifts we are given, as a consequence. The Scriptures say that God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him. When we choose to fully commit to Christ, we receive his Spirit, and then receive personal gifts to act out this spiritual life, lived in conjunction with Christ.

We are not slavishly told what to do most of the time. We are free to act out who we are, and in the process, sometimes display supernatural attributes. And yet the miracle, the supernatural, comes from God, and not from us.

But it is very difficult to explain these things, ie the interplay between God and ourselves, and who we are as individuals as opposed to who others are in Christ. My major disagreement is only that we must attribute to God the miracle, and you may not, in your words, be denying that at all--only saying that spiritual gifts must be done by the person, or we would cease, by definition, to do any miracle at all.

This is indeed a great subject. Only the "initiated" can enter through these doors!

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

which I have difficulty understanding

Mat 17:20[ERV] Jesus answered, "You were not able to make the demon go out, because your faith is too small. Believe me when I tell you, if your faith is only as big as a mustard seed you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. You will be able to do anything."
Mat 17:21[ESV] But this kind doesn’t go out except by prayer and fasting.”

It is believed that an increase in prayer and fasting may strengthen their faith, which will aid them in casting out the demons they are struggling with.

Now there are stories of people who took LSD and jumped out a window because they thought they could fly

They have tempted God, and as you know, God cannot be tempted by evil.
Jas 1:13[ERV(easy to read)] Whenever you feel tempted to do something bad, you should not say, "God is tempting me." Evil cannot tempt God, and God himself does not tempt anyone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mat 17:20[ERV] Jesus answered, "You were not able to make the demon go out, because your faith is too small. Believe me when I tell you, if your faith is only as big as a mustard seed you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. You will be able to do anything."
Mat 17:21[ESV] But this kind doesn’t go out except by prayer and fasting.”

It is believed that an increase in prayer and fasting may strengthen their faith, which will aid them in casting out the demons they are struggling with.

They have tempted God, and as you know, God cannot be tempted by evil.
Jas 1:13[ERV(easy to read)] Whenever you feel tempted to do something bad, you should not say, "God is tempting me." Evil cannot tempt God, and God himself does not tempt anyone.

This is a great point to consider. I have long been told that it is *belief* that causes miracles to take place. It's like a muscle exercise, that if we work to erase all doubt, and add to it intensity, like fasting, we are guaranteed to work a miracle.

But over the decades this has never worked for me, and I've had to re-work my theology. I discovered that we read way too much into the Bible if we come to this conclusion.

As you say, faith is *not* presumptuous, and is certainly not a formula. When Jesus recommended "faith," he was not suggesting faith is an essential part of an equation to achieve, scientifically, a certain result--one that can only take place by God's power.

Rather, Jesus often chastised, or mildly reproved, those who were given guidance to work a miracle, and yet chose to doubt. It was a choice *not to believe* that prevented the miracle, rather than the recommendation that any thing hoped for, and supported by "faith," would achieve any miracle at all.

Faith is a relationship between God and ourselves. We can do nothing spiritual apart from the Holy Spirit. And so we cannot even live the Christian life apart from an essential dependence upon Christ. This interplay of our choosing to produce Christ in our lives requires recognition of God's leadership, as well as our recognition of who God has called us to be.

And so, we make our own decisions, but we always do them in consultation with God so that we act consistently with who God called us to be and in concert with God's guidance. This cannot be reduced to a formula, since it is a matter of personal recognition of who we are as individuals and how God is guiding us each day.

We may add things like fasting and prayer not to "get the miracle," but only to safeguard that we are dying to our flesh, and depending upon God to be who we are called to be, sacrificing carnality for the ways of Christ. Then we will see more clearly how God is guiding us, and we should see some kind of "signs and wonders" confirming that we are walking in the way of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

First you say...

Only Deity can perform miracles *by definition!*

Then you say...

Nobody has to be God to do miracles.

I guess you weren't offended for long. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

This is indeed a great subject. Only the "initiated" can enter through these doors!

Can you testify to the miracles God has used you to perform?

 

[Randy Kluth]

First you say...

Then you say...

I guess you weren't offended for long. - LOL

You aren't seeing the distinction I was making. Only God can do miracles *by definition.* But we are the vessels through whom those miracles are performed. We aren't doing the miracles. We are orchestrating them. I lack better words--sorry!

Let's say an orchestra director performs a musical number. He can say he is performing it. But the actual mechanics of performing the music takes place via the musicians. They are doing the work.

It's the same with miracles. God is doing the miracles. He is orchestrating them *through us,* as we lay our hands on the sick or make a confession of what we see God doing.

As Jesus said, he can do nothing apart from the Father. Neither can we perform miracles apart from God doing the work. He performs them through us but only by his own power.

So I'm talking about who has the power and who determines when it will happen. We may have something to do with when it will happen, but God must confirm that. And we have limited power to speak words or to lay hands. But we do not have the power to work the miracles. Some of this is a semantics problem. I hope you understand?

But if you say God does not do the work, but we do, then I will always have a problem with that!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you testify to the miracles God has used you to perform?

I have no interest in boasting, but only in depreciating myself in order to elevate Him. I can testify to many works that God has done *for me.* The things we do for other people are like when we arrive at the pearly gates and say, "Lord, when have we done good things for you?" And He will answer, "Every time you served one of these, my brothers, in the simplest way, will be recognized as having been done for me."

I don't have a gift of miracles. I'm not a prophet. But I do have gifts. They are all susceptible to error, but are real, and supernatural. They cannot be done by me alone--God is the One supplying supernatural power.

 

[St. SteVen]

You aren't seeing the distinction I was making.

No, I agree with your whole post.
My eye was caught by the seeming contradictions. No worries.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, I agree with your whole post.
My eye was caught by the seeming contradictions. No worries.

Thanks, I like your discussions. I have an obnoxious habit of picking on the peripheral matters, and the language. I need to be careful to explain when I agree with the central thought, and only disagree on whether a "t" should be crossed, or an "i" dotted!

 

[St. SteVen]

Thanks, I like your discussions. I have an obnoxious habit of picking on the peripheral matters, and the language. I need to be careful to explain when I agree with the central thought, and only disagree on whether a "t" should be crossed, or an "i" dotted!

You're a better man than I. Usually dot my Ts and cross my eyes. - LOL

 

[Randy Kluth]

You're a better man than I. Usually dot my Ts and cross my eyes. - LOL

Being obsessive-compulsive is not really a virtue. lol!