How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[atpollard]

Well that is the bible! The saved as it is declared in Ephesians were chosen before teh foundation of the world.

Our job in time, is not to convince people to get saved, but to sow the seed of the gospel and bring in the wheat! We do not know the elect but God does! We act in time the thiings God knows is going to happen because He foreordained it!

Stop confusing these poor people! The last thing they came here for is to talk about what the Bible actually says. This is a "Calvin killed Servetus, so all Calvinists are mean and TULIP is EVIL!" topic.

 

[MatthewG]

My apologies.

 

[atpollard]

My apologies.

No sweat from me ... I welcomed the distraction.

 

[Charlie24]

I would never join any group that gets their beliefs using scripture to dismiss and contradict other scripture. Most do not know Calvin was a Roman Catholic lawyer that became a theologian, and the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. The gospel was given and paid for by Jesus not the Apostle Paul. Paul taught the very same gospel as Jesus. The good news is even though we have all sinned against God if you will believe and place your faith in Jesus repent and follow Jesus you will be saved just as Paul told the jailer what he had to do be saved was believe.

And Martin Luther was a Catholic monk. But don't be so hard on them, that was around 500 years ago and they didn't have the 20/20 hind sight that we have.

They knew enough to know something was wrong in the Church, and thank God they did something about it.

Yes, they made some mistakes, but they gave us what we have today. They should be admired for what they did.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Calvin it seems was double-minded. On one hand he said that in John 3:16 the world meant the entire human race. On the other hand he said that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. And that is exactly what we find in the Westminster Confession. But both cannot be true. If God offers salvation to all of humanity then he cannot contradict Himself and choose some for salvation. Indeed Christ plainly refuted that nonsense.

JOHN 3: GOD WANTS THE WORLD OF HUMANITY TO BE SAVED
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Now these are the actual words of Christ. "Whosoever" means anyone and everyone without exception. And Five Point Calvinism contradicts them. Calvinism substitutes "the elect" for "whosoever". But election is never for salvation but always for glorification and perfection (Rom 8:29,30).

No it doesn't. Jesus and Paul both spoke the truth. Jesus simply made a very simple dceclaration on who gets saved. It is a whosoever. Instead of listing everyone by name (remember God knew the saved before He created the world) He just simply the fact that whoever believes on HIm will be saved.

The whosoever verses say nothing about how or why a person gets saved- it just makes a simple statement that whoever believes the gosdpel will be saved. And this passage also doesn't declares the sho's are!

Paul in saying the believer is elect from the foundation of the world identifies who will get saved without naming names.

 

[Marine0311]

Three opening posts about "Calvinists" rejecting scripture and not a single verse of scripture or veracious statement about what the Doctrines of Grace (T.U.L.I.P.) actually teach. Par for the course.

"No one can come to me" [Total Inability] "unless the Father, who sent me" [Unconditional Election] "draws him" [Irresistible Grace] ", and I will raise him" [Limited Atonement] "on the last day" [Perseverance of the Saints]. - John 6:44

Doctrines of Grace ... aka "TULIP" ... aka "Scripture"

Historic Fun Fact: John Calvin never founded a church, never started a school of Theology, and never had student followers. There is no such thing as the "Calvinistic School of Theology" or the Calvinist Church. The state church in Germany (the Lutherans) believed that the second wave of reformers (of whom John Calvin was just one writer) had gone too far in rejecting the Tradition of the RCC and embracing radical "Sola Scriptura". It was the Lutheral Church that started calling members of the Reformation "Calvinists" as an insult to imply that they had rejected the teaching of the Church (in this case the Lutheran State Church) and were following the teaching of a man. The irony that Lutherans would accuse anyone of "rejecting the church" was apparently lost on Martin Luther's successors. The fact that those on this site still misuse the term "Calvinism" in exactly the same hateful and deliberately hurtful manner to attack those for whom Christ died for the unpardonable sin of disagreeing with you on the subject of sotieriology is disheartening.

Like most "Calvinists", I discovered the truths in scripture long before I ever heard of "Calvinism" and like most "Calvinists" I have never read the "Institutes" or anything else by John Calvin. However, like most that embrace "monergism" and believe that God saves sovereignly without asking or needing our permission, I have read the Bible and can tell you where GOD says exactly that.

If you attribute every decision of every human to God YOU make God the cause of sin, and scripture says God cannot be tempted to commit vil neither does God tempt any man to commit sin.

Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit-and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say,Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. John 3:16 also uses “ whosoever believeth”, which Calvinist change to fit their errors.

 

[Marine0311]

No it doesn't. Jesus and Paul both spoke the truth. Jesus simply made a very simple dceclaration on who gets saved. It is a whosoever. Instead of listing everyone by name (remember God knew the saved before He created the world) He just simply the fact that whoever believes on HIm will be saved.

The whosoever verses say nothing about how or why a person gets saved- it just makes a simple statement that whoever believes the gosdpel will be saved. And this passage also doesn't declares the sho's are!

Paul in saying the believer is elect from the foundation of the world identifies who will get saved without naming names.

God does NOT believe for us, God does not repent for us, and God requires those that come to Him must believe in Him Hebrews 11:6

 

[atpollard]

If you attribute every decision of every human to God

I don’t.
Nobody that I know does.
Problem solved (actually, non-extant).

 

[Marine0311]

I don’t.
Nobody that I know does.
Problem solved (actually, non-extant).

Every Calvinist I have ever spoke with believes God elected them before He created the heavens and earth. So those not elected were predetermined by God to be lost sinners, which if God determined for them to sin it would be God’s determination that they sinned. Same for Eve if she disobeyed God at His determination then scripture would contradict itself, because scripture says God cannot be tempted neither tempts He any man to commit sin.

 

[atpollard]

If you attribute every decision of every human to God YOU make God the cause of sin, and scripture says God cannot be tempted to commit evil neither does God tempt any man to commit sin. Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit-and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. John 3:16 also uses “ whosoever believeth”, which Calvinist change to fit their errors.

I note you ignored my quoted verse, so one good deed deserves another. Here are two verses and a question:

• [Genesis 3:8] “And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.”
• [John 3:19-20] "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”

Who is “whosoever” and who hides because their deeds are evil?

 

[atpollard]

Every Calvinist I have ever spoke with believes God elected them before He created the heavens and earth.

[Ephesians 1:3-6]

3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.​

So is Ephesians 1 true or false?
Do you believe that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ chose YOU in Him before the foundation of the world?

You are accusing every Calvinist that you have ever spoke with of having read and believed the Bible.
Is that something you really want them to be ashamed of?

 

[atpollard]

So those not elected were predetermined by God to be lost sinners, which if God determined for them to sin it would be God’s determination that they sinned.

Have I claimed that scripture teaches this?
No.

Then it is only YOUR invented “what if” that you hold against the Doctrines of Grace.

What you are railing against is Double Predestination. Specifically, it is “positive-positive double predestination” or the teaching that God actively causes some people to believe and in the exact same way God actively causes other people to sin. You are correct that this is not taught in scripture. You are incorrect that this is what Calvinism teaches.

The largest and most comprehensive guide to “Reformed Theology” (the actual term for classic ‘Calvinism’) is the Westminster Confession of Faith. I do not particularly recommend it unless you are caught in a flood … it is some very dry reading. However it teaches Predestination (God chooses some for salvation) because the Bible claims that God chooses some for salvation. It does not teach that God causes anyone to sin because the Bible is very clear that God causes no person to sin. The technical term is “positive-negative predestination”. God compels (draws) some to salvation and God does not compel (draw) others. God does not cause people to sin, He simple does not compel them to come to Christ.

You may feel that is “unfair” … to which I would refer you to Paul and Romans 9 where he talks about accusing God of being unfair for that very thing … but that is not the same as God forcing people to sin (which is what you claim Calvinism teaches).

As an aside, I don’t really care if anyone accepts or rejects Calvinism. I got no dog in that fight and I get no points for convincing anyone of anything. It just bothers me when people don’t even know what we teach because what we teach is found in scriptures. You should at least know (honestly) how we interpret the Word of God so you can HONESTLY reject what we actually believe rather than some sick cartoon version of our beliefs that you made up.

 

[dhh712]

\
The largest and most comprehensive guide to “Reformed Theology” (the actual term for classic ‘Calvinism’) is the Westminster Confession of Faith. I do not particularly recommend it unless you are caught in a flood … it is some very dry reading. However it teaches Predestination (God chooses some for salvation) because the Bible claims that God chooses some for salvation. It does not teach that God causes anyone to sin because the Bible is very clear that God causes no person to sin. The technical term is “positive-negative predestination”. God compels (draws) some to salvation and God does not compel (draw) others. God does not cause people to sin, He simple does not compel them to come to Christ.

You may feel that is “unfair” … to which I would refer you to Paul and Romans 9 where he talks about accusing God of being unfair for that very thing … but that is not the same as God forcing people to sin (which is what you claim Calvinism teaches).

As an aside, I don’t really care if anyone accepts or rejects Calvinism. I got no dog in that fight and I get no points for convincing anyone of anything. It just bothers me when people don’t even know what we teach because what we teach is found in scriptures. You should at least know (honestly) how we interpret the Word of God so you can HONESTLY reject what we actually believe rather than some sick cartoon version of our beliefs that you made up.

Lol--I thought it was the most fascinating thing I've ever read! For the first time ever the Bible was explained to me where there are no loose ends whatsoever.

I'm a Calvinist too and I know most Christians are not favorable to this way of understanding the Bible. It is plain that God calls all to come to him and he sets salvation before all as a free choice. And as I explained before--I was no puppet on a string when I turned to Jesus to be saved. It was entirely me on my own that did that (God did not drive me or force me to turn to Him; he simply enabled me to behold a fraction of his holiness and to see Jesus in the word and hear--by reading--the words of life). Those who do turn to God to be saved are the elect and God has sovereignly ordained them to have been saved, as he has revealed in Ephesians, before the foundations of the world.

Yes, God chooses to pass people over and not give them spiritual life. Why? I don't know. You'll have to ask him. It is his choice (He does give an answer in his word: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy. To get anything more you'll have to wait until you're done with this life). I think the better question however is why would he save anyone at all? Please name one thing, anyone, that would make it obligatory for God to have saved anyone of you. I am interested in the replies.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm a Calvinist too and I know most Christians are not favorable to this way of understanding the Bible.

How can anyone be in favor of a nonsensical gospel? Now all those who have tried to support it have not been able to come up with one VALID interpretation which contradicts John 3:14-17.

 

[Enoch111]

This is a "Calvin killed Servetus, so all Calvinists are mean and TULIP is EVIL!" topic.

Even if Calvin did not kill Servetus, TULIP is evil! When someone blatantly asserts that Christ did NOT die for the sins of the whole world, that is extremely evil.

 

[BeyondET]

Yes, I always like to say that I'm a Calvinist and an Arminian as both views are described in the Bible. God has chosen those who will believe upon him from the foundation of the world as he has revealed to us in I believe it is Ephesians. There is also the verses in the Gospel where Jesus says that all who turn to him he will in nowise cast out and "Come to me all who are weary and heavy-laden and I will give you rest...". So it is both a choice and a sovereign decree by God.

I know for sure that it was I myself in my own will that chose to believe in God, not that God has me on strings like a puppet and made me turn to him. So it has to be a choice that I willingly made. I like to quote a pastor at a Reformed conference (who would likely describe himself as a Calvinist as I typically do for myself) that salvation is 100% God and 100% man. We have no idea how that can be because our logic is finite and corrupt. But that is what is described in God's word and that is always what I will go with not some sect or denomination's view.

As I have heard (I've heard it credited to Luther, but not entirely sure of that) there is no one who is an infallible interpreter of God's infallible word. We all have something wrong in our understanding of it. It is not our doctrine or theological beliefs that save us.

Interesting read probably is both or either or, though reminded me of Paul on the road to Damascus in the sense he was heading to slaughter folks but that idea ended abruptly.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol--I thought it was the most fascinating thing I've ever read! For the first time ever the Bible was explained to me where there are no loose ends whatsoever.

I'm a Calvinist too and I know most Christians are not favorable to this way of understanding the Bible. It is plain that God calls all to come to him and he sets salvation before all as a free choice. And as I explained before--I was no puppet on a string when I turned to Jesus to be saved. It was entirely me on my own that did that (God did not drive me or force me to turn to Him; he simply enabled me to behold a fraction of his holiness and to see Jesus in the word and hear--by reading--the words of life). Those who do turn to God to be saved are the elect and God has sovereignly ordained them to have been saved, as he has revealed in Ephesians, before the foundations of the world.

Yes, God chooses to pass people over and not give them spiritual life. Why? I don't know. You'll have to ask him. It is his choice (He does give an answer in his word: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy. To get anything more you'll have to wait until you're done with this life). I think the better question however is why would he save anyone at all? Please name one thing, anyone, that would make it obligatory for God to have saved anyone of you. I am interested in the replies.

I'm not a Calvinist but I have much respect for John Calvin. I read his commentary quite often and have learned many things from him. Actually he is one of my favorite theologians.

I agree with him on many things but not predestination. I can only go as far as total depravity of man, and that's when I jump ship.

The Scripture says that God is no respecter of persons, Jesus said it is the Father's will that all men be saved, Peter said the Lord is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance.

This is one area where I believe Calvin missed the mark! Predestination is not God choosing the individual for salvation, or not choosing individuals for salvation, it is God's plan of redemption that is predestined for the individual.

We, (mankind) were predestined before the foundation of the world to be redeemed by God's plan of redemption.

When Christ said, "you have not chosen me but I have chosen you..." He is speaking of what Calvin taught us of total depravity of man. Man cannot and will not choose Christ unless he is called by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Gospel. This is the calling for all men, and man will accept or reject that calling. This is why it is so vital for us to spread this Gospel.

The same holds true when Christ said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." All initiative toward salvation is on the part of God toward man, and not man toward God. This initiative is the hearing of the Gospel that is the only way man can be saved.

 

[atpollard]

Even if Calvin did not kill Servetus, TULIP is evil! When someone blatantly asserts that Christ did NOT die for the sins of the whole world, that is extremely evil.

Sufficient for all, effective for all that the Father has drawn … not sufficient for all and effective for none, until man finishes what God only started.

Ephesians 2 … did God make them alive while they were yet dead in sin or not?
Did Jesus actually save anyone or not?
Did Jesus actually save EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION or not?
Which of us is REALLY denying what Scripture teaches (hint: not Calvinism).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Stop confusing these poor people! The last thing they came here for is to talk about what the Bible actually says. This is a "Calvin killed Servetus, so all Calvinists are mean and TULIP is EVIL!" topic.

OOOOOPS! My bad!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God does NOT believe for us, God does not repent for us, and God requires those that come to Him must believe in Him Hebrews 11:6

No He does not believe or repent for us.

But He gives us the faith to believe, and also the power and desire to repent. Otherwise no human would repent ever if the Word of God is true.