How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[keras]

Regarding a 'rapture', what we should all be looking forward to is the fulfilment of God's promises to His people, be they descendants of Jacob or grafted in, of going to live in all of the holy Land, as so well prophesied in Isaiah 60, 61 & 62. There, we will be 'wedded to Him' and live in peace. 144,000 will be selected from each tribe and sent out to the nations to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Not a removal to heaven; to do what?
Yes, God knows who His people are, still scattered among the nations;
What if WE are Israelites?
Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.”
Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37
Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?
The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His people when they go back into the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27

The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite and Gentile nations and then the way of atonement for anyone who believes in Jesus. The meaning and the outcome of present world events, then Israel’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom.
The truth about the Lord’s plan for all Israel is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people who will live as He originally intended, eventually under the rule of His Son, Jesus.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek Y’hovah: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you were cut. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.
Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.

When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to the Israelites, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is, the period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us, now in 2014, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come. It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirms that their fulfilment is imminent.
The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of His people.

 

[Chuckt]

The Rapture was taught by early Church Fathers. The usual argument was that the rapture wasn't taught until the 1600's.
Irenaeus, AD 170

Against Heresies 5.29 - When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be."
Tertullian, AD 207

That sounds like a pre-trib statement to me by Tertullian!

Against Marcion 5.16 He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, "...By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones?"

Ancient Church Fathers (What the Disciples of the Apostles taught) by Ken Johnson Th.d.

See page 105.

There are more quotes in this book but I don't want to copy heavily from this book.

Found it in the commentary:

Isaiah 60:8 Commentaries: "Who are these who fly like a cloud And like the doves to their lattices?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

ChuckT, I have perused your blog; I was edified by much of it. I believe you are born again. And since iron sharpens iron, I would caution you to not seek the approbation of men. Trust no man.

There will be no excuse before the King of kings for one's failure to perform due diligence.

Irenaeus, AD 170The Rapture was taught by early Church Fathers. The usual argument was that the rapture wasn't taught until the 1600's.
Against Heresies 5.29 - When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be."

Tertullian, AD 207

That sounds like a pre-trib statement to me by Tertullian!

Many rapture writers have a nasty habit of quoting some early writer on the subject of prophecy, and then cutting off the quote just when the statement shows the writer was post-tribulationist. They then assert that the ancient authority believed in the pre-tribulation rapture!

For example:

Irenaeus is a close link to the disciples for he was taught by Polycarp, who was a disciple of The Apostle John. Concerning the 10 kings of the Apocalyptic period, Irenaeus wrote “And they will...give their kingdom to the Beast and put the church to flight.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.26.1).

In another quote, Irenaeus again places the church in the tribulation, as he quotes Revelation’s author John: “But he indicates the number of the name now [666] in order that when this man comes we may avoid him by being aware who he is.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30).

The interesting thing about this practice, ChuckT, is that virtually anyone can prove the rapture writers are intentional liars (not by slur, but by Scriptural definition) with just a bit of research. Thus, those that continue in error will be without excuse.

 

[Chuckt]

ChuckT, I have perused your blog; I was edified by much of it. I believe you are born again. And since iron sharpens iron, I would caution you to not seek the approbation of men. Trust no man.

There will be no excuse before the King of kings for one's failure to perform due diligence.


Many rapture writers have a nasty habit of quoting some early writer on the subject of prophecy, and then cutting off the quote just when the statement shows the writer was post-tribulationist. They then assert that the ancient authority believed in the pre-tribulation rapture!

For example:

Irenaeus is a close link to the disciples for he was taught by Polycarp, who was a disciple of The Apostle John. Concerning the 10 kings of the Apocalyptic period, Irenaeus wrote “And they will...give their kingdom to the Beast and put the church to flight.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.26.1).

In another quote, Irenaeus again places the church in the tribulation, as he quotes Revelation’s author John: “But he indicates the number of the name now [666] in order that when this man comes we may avoid him by being aware who he is.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30).

The interesting thing about this practice, ChuckT, is that virtually anyone can prove the rapture writers are intentional liars (not by slur, but by Scriptural definition) with just a bit of research. Thus, those that continue in error will be without excuse.

The Church will be here after the Rapture happens because of two reasons. (1) People will believe the Rapture after it happens and believe in Christ and be martyrs as a result. There might actually be millions of conversions. (2) The visible church is here and that is different from the invisible Church. The visible Church are your false believers who will be here.

I don't believe people who have false views of the book of Revelation can properly understand it or our ancient record because spiritual truth has to be illuminated, has to be revealed, has to be inspired or you won't understand it. You wouldn't know much about God unless God revealed Himself in the first place and you wouldn't know His mind unless He revealed that too.

Thank you. I am born again.
I don't know what blog you are talking about. I don't blog.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Thank you. I am born again.
I don't know what blog you are talking about. I don't blog.

Sorry about that misunderstanding. I was referring to your posting history here.

As for the remainder of your post...

The Church will be here after the Rapture happens because of two reasons. (1) People will believe the Rapture after it happens and believe in Christ and be martyrs as a result. There might actually be millions of conversions. (2) The visible church is here and that is different from the invisible Church. The visible Church are your false believers who will be here.

I don't believe people who have false views of the book of Revelation can properly understand it or our ancient record because spiritual truth has to be illuminated, has to be revealed, has to be inspired or you won't understand it. You wouldn't know much about God unless God revealed Himself in the first place and you wouldn't know His mind unless He revealed that too.

...there's no proof offered of any "rapture." And one's opinions count for nothing. Perhaps you could post some scripture in support of your reply.

 

[Chuckt]

Sorry about that misunderstanding. I was referring to your posting history here.

As for the remainder of your post...




...there's no proof offered of any "rapture." And one's opinions count for nothing. Perhaps you could post some scripture in support of your reply.

Any?


[SIZE=10.5pt]How the Word “Rapture” or “Harpazō” is used in the Bible.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]By Chuckt (C) 2014[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up [/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] [SIZE=10.5pt]together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Strong's G726 - harpazō[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=9.5pt]1)[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] to seize, carry off by force[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=9.5pt]2)[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=9.5pt]3)[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt] to snatch out or away[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=9.5pt]AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1[/SIZE]​

​

[SIZE=9.5pt]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&t=KJV[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=9.5pt]Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take (harpazō) it by force (harpazō).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.5pt]Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=9.5pt]John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]) them, and scattereth the sheep.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.5pt]John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall (harpazō) never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt]) them out of my hand. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=9.5pt]John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] [SIZE=9.5pt][them] out of my Father's hand. [/SIZE]


Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] him by force [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up [SIZE=9.5pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]harpazō[/SIZE][SIZE=9.5pt])[/SIZE] unto God, and [to] his throne.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

[SIZE=10.5pt]How the Word “Rapture” or “Harpazō” is used in the Bible.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]By Chuckt © 2014[/SIZE]

lol @ the copyright!

Most people are unaware that the pre-trib "rapture" theory is the marketing vehicle for the false doctrine of dispensationalism. My point was that the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. And saying that it is, only serves to fuel that false doctrine.

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, Your words: "The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection."

I disagree with your conclusions. I do believe in a rapture, just not a pre-trib one. Everyone wants to add all kinds of eschatologies and theologies to a simple biblical truth. Modern day believers view the rapture in simple terms, the act of being "caught up" as referenced by 1 Thess. 4:17 and our "translation" is described in 1 Cor. 15:51-54. Whether one believes the duration of time between when we meet the Lord in the sky and our return to earth is five seconds or five years is really irrelevant to the usage of the term "rapture".

If we throw out all the controversy surrounding this simple fact the evidence of a "rapture" is clear even if the term makes one uncomfortable because they have difficulty separating the simple act from the theological controversy concerning it.

I was raised pre-trib but changed to pre-wrath after reading Rosenthal's book. In my efforts to discredit it, I found I couldn't. As time went on my idea of the timing has changed from the typical pre-wrath position to something I haven't yet put a label on. I haven't found anyone who seriously wants to study these issues with me, not even on this board so for now, I still consider myself a pre-wrather which is far different from a pre-tribber.

 

[Chuckt]

lol @ the copyright!

Most people are unaware that the pre-trib "rapture" theory is the marketing vehicle for the false doctrine of dispensationalism. My point was that the word "rapture" is not found in the Bible. And saying that it is, only serves to fuel that false doctrine.

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

The word rapture is in the Latin Vulgate and it is our Greek word "Harpazo" which means "caught up" or "taken away by force" which is the bunch of verses I posted.

The rapture is taught today. There are colleges devoted to teaching premillennialism, dispensationalism, the rapture.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In the days of Noah, people scoffed that they had to be in the ark (Jesus) and something happened that didn't happen before. They that were in the ark were lifted up and everyone else died and then the ark came back down to earth which would be symbolic of the second coming because Jude says:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

That is when we come back down to the earth.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

.

The word rapture is in the Latin Vulgate and it is our Greek word "Harpazo" which means "caught up" or "taken away by force" which is the bunch of verses I posted.

!) Which "Vulgate" would that be?

2) "harpazo" is not "rapture."

The rapture is taught today. There are colleges devoted to teaching premillennialism, dispensationalism, the rapture.

And that makes it right? The Majority has always been wrong; the majority is on the broad path to hell. Scripture warns us repeatedly to trust no man.

...the ark...

...and Enoch also...

The ark wasn't "raptured;" Enoch wasn't "raptured."

I disagree with your conclusions. I do believe in a rapture, just not a pre-trib one. Everyone wants to add all kinds of eschatologies and theologies to a simple biblical truth. Modern day believers view the rapture in simple terms, the act of being "caught up" as referenced by 1 Thess. 4:17 and our "translation" is described in 1 Cor. 15:51-54. Whether one believes the duration of time between when we meet the Lord in the sky and our return to earth is five seconds or five years is really irrelevant to the usage of the term "rapture"

When a person imprisoned in the Rapture Cult hears someone does not believe in the ”rapture,” what he (or she) thinks he hears is someone saying they don’t believe the Lord is coming back at all. The fact is, Cultspeak is a verifiable phenomenon, in that all cult systems have misappropriated religious terminology for their own advantage.

This aspect of my reply is related to the assumption factor. It is the assumption of the existence of the so-called “rapture” that is part of the problem. Indeed, if someone says they believe in the “post-tribulation rapture,” they are still putting forth the existence of the “rapture,” in that they are characterizing the legitimacy of the term, even in a post-trib context. Conversely, if you say you believe in the second coming, you are saying essentially the same thing -- but you are saying it in a fashion that does not tend to validate the existence of the fraudulent concept itself.

This point merits repetition as it’s crucial. If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist, and then sought to study it. In fact, for many years, we’ve strongly encouraged believers to study the resurrection of the believer, as it is a concept that is categorically enunciated in Scripture; and when a student of Scripture fully understands the resurrection, they will have learned there is no way for the “rapture” doctrine to be valid.

The very title of the OP is formed in fraud ala "How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???"

If we throw out all the controversy surrounding this simple fact the evidence of a "rapture" is clear even if the term makes one uncomfortable because they have difficulty separating the simple act from the theological controversy concerning it.

There you go -- you've said it yourself. Touch not the unclean thing!

I haven't found anyone who seriously wants to study these issues with me, not even on this board so for now, I still consider myself a pre-wrather which is far different from a pre-tribber.

Well, you've found one now.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, I think you're over-complicating the issue. You just can't "pretend away" the scriptures because you don't like the evidence they represent.

Would you accept the evidence from scripture even if I presented it?

Your words: "If you set out to study the “rapture” in the Scriptures (or even in an interaction with another believer), you have already forfeited a completely accurate result, for you’ve projected the existence of something that does not exist, and then sought to study it."

For something that "doesn't exist", there is ample scriptural evidence proving otherwise.

Your words: "they will have learned there is no way for the “rapture” doctrine to be valid."

Give me three simple NT scriptures that refute the possibility of a rapture.

Your words: "There you go -- you've said it yourself. Touch not the unclean thing!"

It doesn't bother me at all. I was referring to folks who share your belief.

Your words: "Well, you've found one now."

I appreciate your offer but to be an effective "study buddy" regarding pre-wrath, one would have to acknowledge the existence of a rapture which you don't. However, I would be open to other topics if your offer was valid.

Please answer one question. What do you think happens to living believers at Christ's second coming?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi Michael, If you read through the discussion you would see that I agree that God isn't done with Israel yet.

Your words: "if you know exactly how He is going to deal with His kin according to the flesh"

The same way He is going to deal with everybody else.

Acts 10:34 - "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

Rom. 2:11 - "For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law."

Gal. 6:9 - "And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

You see, it's man that thinks blood line is a big deal, God does not. He doesn't care if we are Jews or Gentiles. For those of the NT, He only cares if we are covered under Christ's blood or not. For those of the OT, they will be judged by the law and the faith they had in their God. It's not mysticism or a guessing game similar to lottery nos. God provides us the answers in His word.

Most of the promises left unfulfilled for the nation of Israel are the land promises and they will be fulfilled by the 144,000+ in the millennium.

First, I'd like to apologize for not reading the entire discussion: This particular discussion is one of many such discussions about an imaginary doctrine that fearful and faithless people cling to in desperation, despite the fact that there is absolutely no explicit teaching of such a doctrine anywhere in scripture, including the passage found in chapter 4 of 1st Thessalonians (which is about the 1st resurrection and the glorification of the church, described briefly in Revelation chapter 20.) The Holy Bible promises a restoration of the kingdom of Israel (not specifically of the church) after all of God's curses against Israel for its unfaithfulness to God (also known as Jacob's trouble) are completed. (see Deuteronomy chapter 30)
Also, please note that the 144,000 "virgins" described in the book of the Revelation (and possibly the same as prophesied by Zechariah), are witnesses and Martyrs for Christ, not survivors of the tribulation period. The vengeance of God for their blood is not met out upon the inhabitants of the earth until their number is completed by the death of the last two witnesses (Revelation chapter 11).
I fully understand the confusion within evangelical Christianity over Christ's return since so many reputable teachers have been proclaiming "rapture" doctrine as a genuine biblical doctrine for at least as long as most of us have been alive, but declaring something true is no guarantee of its legitimacy and I don't know of any sound doctrine that isn't explicitly declared in scripture. On the contrary, we have the advice of the Apostle Paul to avoid thinking beyond what is written, specifically for the purpose of avoiding division through pride and carnality (1st Corinthians chapter 4). Though I don't always completely agree with Retrobyter, I'll always stand with him over the interpretation of what is plainly written in scripture for our understanding and the working out of our salvation through godly living.

But lets put on our thinking caps for a moment and try to do some simple reasoning from God's word. First what did God say through the Apostle Paul about unbelieving Israel?
28. Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31. even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32
So, with the exception of a believing remnant among the Jews, God Himself has caused the Jews to miss their Messiah for our sakes, that we might be beneficiaries of the gospel.(?)
Now this is where we really have to think a little harder.
If I dig a pit in your path somewhere so that you might fall in, or set a trap for you that you might stumble, am I acting in an unrighteous manner? According to God's law, such actions break His commandments.
Now another rhetorical question or two: Is there unrighteousness with God? Does He break His own commandments? Clearly not.
So how are we to understand Paul when he wrote:
30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33. As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, and whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.'' Romans 9:30-33
In chapter 9 of the book of Romans, Paul was quoting from Isaiah chapter 8:
13. The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.
14. He will be as a sanctuary, but a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15. And many among them shall stumble; they shall fall and be broken, be snared and taken.'' Isaiah 8:13-15
Both Isaiah and Paul wrote these passages about national judgments, not about individual salvation or condemnation.
Now, we might cause someone to stumble blindly and fall to their own hurt, but it would be unrighteous of us to do so, even if we believed that this was what was deserved or just.
If the Lord is in some manner or to some degree responsible for Israel to "stumble and fall," (as suggested by scripture) even in His national judgments, then He will certainly restore that which He has taken from them in His wrath, because He is entirely righteous and doesn't maintain some form of "double standard." His word already tells us that this was His plan from the time that He gave the law through Moses, so don't you think that we should believe it, given that He said it.
Oh, I forgot, this whole thread is another in the ongoing argument over a doctrine not explicitly written in scripture, that pits itself directly against what is written (and therefore what is written must be reinterpreted to mean something other than what it actually says. Stupid me!)

 

[Chuckt]

.

!) Which "Vulgate" would that be?

2) "harpazo" is not "rapture."


And that makes it right? The Majority has always been wrong; the majority is on the broad path to hell. Scripture warns us repeatedly to trust no man.

The Latin for the Greek word "harpazo" is 'Raptus'.

Through time, the rapture was probably the minority opinion. Within Evangelicalism, it is a dominant belief.

Survey: Majority of Evangelical Leaders Believe in Rapture; Imminent Return of Jesus

Six in 10 evangelical leaders, or 61 percent, say they believe in the Rapture of the Church compared to 32 percent who say the End Times doesn't happen exactly this way, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life survey.
The survey was based on responses from nearly 2,200 evangelical leaders at the Third Lausanne Congress on World Evangelization – a global gathering of 4,500 evangelical leaders from over 190 nations that was held last fall in Cape Town, South Africa.
Majorities of leaders from the Global South – which included Asia & the Pacific, Central & South America, Middle East/North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa – and the Global North – which included Europe and North America – with the exception of Europe believe in the Rapture of the Church.

Evangelical leaders from sub-Saharan Africa were the most likely to believe in the Rapture, with 82 percent subscribing to this End Times belief.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/global-evangelical-leaders-believe-in-rapture-imminent-second-coming-of-jesus-51504/

When you talk about the majority has always been wrong, the majority of what?

The Bible teaches the rapture. The disciples of the Apostles taught the rapture.

Progressive revelation is what? Why don't the Jews believe in their messiah? The only way for the Jews to believe in Messiah is from progressive revelation. God knows the future. Many of the things God knows are impossible to know. You don't believe because you haven't put together the progressive revelation or it hasn't been revealed to you. Unless it is revealed to you, why would you believe?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

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Hi S4C, I think you're over-complicating the issue.

O contraire, it is the “rapture” cult who has done that. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor. 11:3 AV)

You just can't "pretend away" the scriptures because you don't like the evidence they represent.

There is no “evidence” for the false doctrine of dispensationalism (and its marketing vehicle, the pre-trib “rapture” theory) to "pretend away."

Would you accept the evidence from scripture even if I presented it?

Of course. But you’re misunderstanding the issue.

Although significant numbers of “believers” recoil at the term cultist, it is very instructive to recognize how many characteristics that are classically identified with the term cult may be applied to rapturists. Cult experts everywhere have noted that one must be very careful in communicating with such people because terms that mean one thing to most Christians frequently mean quite another to an individual that has had their decision-making processes impaired through spiritual deception.

To put it another way, one of the primary difficulties found in any interaction with a cultist is that people that are programmed into a particular mindset attach meanings to words that others would not perceive in the same way. When you’re talking with a rapture cultist, you may both speak English -- but he/she frequently does not hear your words with the meaning attached to the concept that you intended to convey. The word “rapture” itself is a prime example.

The Latin for the Greek word "harpazo" is 'Raptus'.

For instance, I declare here and now that the word “rapture” never appears in the Bible. Now a rapturist will respond ‘that’s not true! I know the word IS in the Bible!’ and in a twisted way of looking at things, he’s right. Let me illustrate.

In Thessalonians 4:17 we see that “...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together...in the clouds.” In this verse, the Greek word that Paul originally used when he wrote I Thessalonians was “harpazo.” This word means to be caught up or snatched up violently. When Catholic scholars produced early translations of the New Testament, they wrote in Latin. In those translations, they used the Latin word rapere as their equivalent for harpazo. This word rapere is the root word and the origin of the English word rapture. The root has other words associated with it -- including our word raptor, which describes a destructive bird of prey.

The New Testament was written in Greek. It was translated from the Greek into English by a team of spiritually blessed men of God back in the time of King James. I don’t speak Latin, no scriptures were ever given to any of the Lord’s Hebrew prophets in Latin, and no prophet of the Lord wrote in Latin. The only Latin writers I have any knowledge of were Catholic, and I am persuaded that the Scriptures demonstrate that Catholicism provides a significant component to what Revelation calls Mystery Babylon. Thus, the argument that the word “rapture” is in the Bible is dependent on a Latin translation -- i.e. work that is derived from Scripture, but is not scripture. Therefore, the word Rapture IS NOT IN THE BIBLE.

There is another way to approach the word game that is played by those what are caught in the cult. When they tell you the word “rapture” is in the Bible, ask them if the word Chernobyl is in the Bible. If they’re honest at all, they’ll say ‘of course not.’ Then show them Revelation 9:11 where after the 3rd trumpet the fresh waters are made bitter during the tribulation. The text says “And the name of the star is called Wormwood, and the third part of the waters became wormwood.”

Many of us know that the Ukranian word for “wormwood” (which is actually an herbal purging substance) is Chernobyl. Now, how many of you speak or read Ukranian? It’s likely that this wormwood episode is describing a nuclear contamination of fresh water at some point in the tribulation, but you could hardly say the actual word Chernobyl is in the Bible. It’s a Ukranian word -- not Hebrew, Greek, or English. Indeed, 50 years ago if you said ‘You know, the word Chernobyl is in the Bible!’ people would have sent for the boys in the white coats to give you some Prozac.

The analogy is the same. Why pull out some strange word from a dead or foreign language that has no original connection with the scriptures? The only reason is to defend a doctrine that is not expressly taught anywhere in scripture.

I appreciate your offer but to be an effective "study buddy" regarding pre-wrath...

No, I’m no more interested in studying the manmade “pre-wrath” doctrine than I am the manmade dispensational doctrine. Again, before you’ve even started, you’ve shot yourself in the foot with the presumption of the validity of the doctrines in the first instance.

Please answer one question. What do you think happens to living believers at Christ's second coming?

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

Through time, the rapture was probably the minority opinion. Within Evangelicalism, it is a dominant belief.

The pre-trib "rapture" theory is one of the relatively new arrivals on the apostacy platter.

 

[Chuckt]

I fully understand the confusion within evangelical Christianity over Christ's return since so many reputable teachers have been proclaiming "rapture" doctrine as a genuine biblical doctrine for at least as long as most of us have been alive, but declaring something true is no guarantee of its legitimacy and I don't know of any sound doctrine that isn't explicitly declared in scripture. On the contrary, we have the advice of the Apostle Paul to avoid thinking beyond what is written, specifically for the purpose of avoiding division through pride and carnality (1st Corinthians chapter 4). Though I don't always completely agree with Retrobyter, I'll always stand with him over the interpretation of what is plainly written in scripture for our understanding and the working out of our salvation through godly living.

But lets put on our thinking caps for a moment and try to do some simple reasoning from God's word. First what did God say through the Apostle Paul about unbelieving Israel?

I debated two pastors. I have whole books on the subject.
The pastors I know won't debate me on the subject of the end times or the rapture. The believers on another board I left will not debate me anymore on the rapture.

When I grew up, I heard everyone argue about salvation and the end times. I stored up everything I heard and then I went through scripture. I spent a lot of hours on it. I can start a new debate on the rapture if you would like but it would have to be a separate discussion.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I debated two pastors. I have whole books on the subject.
The pastors I know won't debate me on the subject of the end times or the rapture. The believers on another board I left will not debate me anymore on the rapture.

When I grew up, I heard everyone argue about salvation and the end times. I stored up everything I heard and then I went through scripture. I spent a lot of hours on it. I can start a new debate on the rapture if you would like but it would have to be a separate discussion.

I'm already pretty much convinced that the pre-trib. "rapture" doctrine grew out of anti-Semitism which was rampant before and after Christ's first appearing. Some people like to argue that the doctrine is a recent creation while others go to writings from "church fathers" in their attempt to validate it, but anti-Semitism isn't new, nor has it ever been absent completely from the gentile church. Martin Luther went on record with anti-Semitic comments and I'm reasonably sure that he wasn't the first to allow emotion to cloud reasoning. Fear is also a powerful influence that distorts reasoning and tosses logic out the window. The scripture tells us that some will be saved through fear, but it also tells us that God is not pleased with cowardice and that we should fear God alone, so I suspect that some will be saved through their fear of God (if not all.)
I understand that some Pastors equate the hope of the rapture with the hope of the resurrection, yet the hope of the resurrection was a motivation of the saints before Christ's resurrection and seen in the writings of King David, Isaiah, Daniel, and the book of Job (to name a few), and prior to the creation of the New Testament cannon of scripture there was no rapture doctrine or even a notion of two resurrections: The Jews who believed in a resurrection, believed that it would occur at the end of all things and as the time of God's judgment upon humanity.
I wouldn't want to be boiled in oil, but the Apostle John was (and survived it). I wouldn't want to be blown up, cut down, shot dead, burnt to death, electrocuted, asphyxiated, etc., etc., etc. I think most people would rather die in their bed at night while sleeping rather than endure any pain or drama that comes with persecution or disease or war, etc., but saints have suffered all these sorts of things from day 1 and onward and not one of them is a temptation unless there is the provision of an easy out which denies God. Are they expressions of wrath? If so, then God has poured out wrath on His saints since the murder of Abel.
I believe that all these arguments and debates will be moot soon enough, given the times, but the thing that you have to ask yourself when you participate in them is simply, "What is my motive and can the things I say or write cause a brother to stumble if I'm wrong?" Think about it. What are the consequences to the saints if the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine isn't invented as a clever deception, and what are the consequences to the saints if it is?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I believe that all these arguments and debates will be moot soon enough, given the times, but the thing that you have to ask yourself when you participate in them is simply, "What is my motive and can the things I say or write cause a brother to stumble if I'm wrong?" Think about it. What are the consequences to the saints if the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine isn't invented as a clever deception, and what are the consequences to the saints if it is?

What I commonly find in the cult is a consistent willingness to resist the truth -- even as they speak of love and grace. You can't have love and grace without the truth. This is what is meant by rightly dividing the word of truth. Regarding the period preceding the return of Christ, Paul wrote that there is a "deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth..." (II Thes. 2:10). This verse speaks volumes to me, for I believe it directly applies to the subject of this thread.

The issue of the timing of the return of Christ is not directly one of salvation, for a mistaken understanding of Christ's return was not included in the short list of unpardonable sins found in Matthew 12:31. I believe the most dangerous aspect of this controversy is also the greatest weapon the enemy has been utilizing from the very beginning: Deception.

The passages dealing with the Thief of Sardis clearly detail that an accurate understanding of this issue is a signpost -- a benchmark as to the individual's walk with Christ. If that walk is not where Christ desires it to be, the manifestation of that error is a misunderstanding of this issue -- "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief..." (Rev. 3:3). Remember, when dealing with prophecy, the enemy has three weapons: deception, deception, and deception.

Whoever is deceived on this subject is more vulnerable to the next layer of lies the enemy is planning to unleash in his final assault on the church of Jesus Christ. At some point, it will be undeniable that the tribulation period has begun. Pre-tribulation rapture oriented Christians that find themselves in this period with no scriptural preparation, emotional anticipation, or physical provisions to deal with the devastating circumstances inherent in the tribulation period will be very susceptible to a more serious lie. Many believers will undoubtedly reason that since their pastors misled them on the rapture issue, perhaps they were also in error on other aspects of salvation and the true nature of the Gospel.

Indeed, history seems to indicate that a series of false assumptions in the early church concerning the return of Christ was the motivation for the Apostle Paul's letters to the church at Thessalonica. Satan doesn't change a game plan that works. In fact, he's been using the same tactics for thousands of years, so there are some powerful indicators that this failure to perceive the truth may even be related to the great "falling away" spoken of by Paul in that same second letter to Thessalonica. Note, for example, this predicted departure from the faith occurs at the time of the emergence of the Antichrist.

For many, the much easier path offered by the harlot church will undoubtedly have more appeal than a brutal martyrdom and the very real possibility of seeing one's family starved, imprisoned, or worse. The way of the true Christian has always been personified more by the martyrs of the Roman Coliseum than the credit card laden modern church of the Mercedes-Benz.

Even though the momentum is building among various fellowships, para-church ministries, and other Christian media for a more balanced, Berean-like approach to the study of the 2nd coming, it may come too late. America is under judgment, and that judgment will begin at the house of God. God is not mocked and He WILL clean house in whatever fashion He sees fit.

In the meantime, it is a prudent course of action to continue to warn all who will listen that the great threshing floor is immediately in front of us. I believe the tribulation has begun, and the wheat and the tares will both be in it -- all the way to the harvest. While many just shrug it off and say 'God will provide,' it may be that God has been telling believers to prepare for those days. As the evidence in this post suggests, just because your pastor or spiritual mentor preaches the 'rapture' doesn't mean it's true. The tribulation has arrived and I urge all Christians to prepare NOW.

Store some food. Save some water. Think in terms of survival in a physical sense. Sleeping bags and blankets are always in demand during difficult times. During natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes, relief agencies always need medicine, food, and clothing. Almost anyone can afford basic camping supplies. There is much that you can do -- even on a limited budget. Last but not least, I believe it is imperative that all true remnant believers cease all support of the rapture cult.

The Bible says "ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Cor. 10:21) The cult has now led millions of Christians into a mind-numbing ethical and moral paralysis that has left them on the spiritual critical list. The leaders of the cult are in terrible trouble, for the principle of the watchman of Ezekiel tells the shepherds that if they fail to warn of impending danger to the flock, "...his blood will I require at thine hand." (Eze. 33:8) The cult continues to reign in arrogance claiming "I sit a queen [or bride] and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." (Rev. 18:7) For centuries, "They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." (Jer. 23:17) Regarding this passage, the Lord tells us when this false reassurance will occur:

"...in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him?..." (Jer. 23:20-24) "Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour." (Jer. 23:30)

Having fought this battle for over 20 years, I already know how most will respond to this post. The Lord's judgment is destined to fall because, in spite of this post, and the enormous knowledge that is readily available to any Christian that will simply study their bible for themselves as they are instructed to do, most Christians still have itching ears. For this cause, God says "Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed" (Isa. 65:12, 13).

 

[Chuckt]

I'm already pretty much convinced that the pre-trib. "rapture" doctrine grew out of anti-Semitism which was rampant before and after Christ's first appearing. Some people like to argue that the doctrine is a recent creation while others go to writings from "church fathers" in their attempt to validate it, but anti-Semitism isn't new, nor has it ever been absent completely from the gentile church. Martin Luther went on record with anti-Semitic comments and I'm reasonably sure that he wasn't the first to allow emotion to cloud reasoning. Fear is also a powerful influence that distorts reasoning and tosses logic out the window. The scripture tells us that some will be saved through fear, but it also tells us that God is not pleased with cowardice and that we should fear God alone, so I suspect that some will be saved through their fear of God (if not all.)
I understand that some Pastors equate the hope of the rapture with the hope of the resurrection, yet the hope of the resurrection was a motivation of the saints before Christ's resurrection and seen in the writings of King David, Isaiah, Daniel, and the book of Job (to name a few), and prior to the creation of the New Testament cannon of scripture there was no rapture doctrine or even a notion of two resurrections: The Jews who believed in a resurrection, believed that it would occur at the end of all things and as the time of God's judgment upon humanity.
I wouldn't want to be boiled in oil, but the Apostle John was (and survived it). I wouldn't want to be blown up, cut down, shot dead, burnt to death, electrocuted, asphyxiated, etc., etc., etc. I think most people would rather die in their bed at night while sleeping rather than endure any pain or drama that comes with persecution or disease or war, etc., but saints have suffered all these sorts of things from day 1 and onward and not one of them is a temptation unless there is the provision of an easy out which denies God. Are they expressions of wrath? If so, then God has poured out wrath on His saints since the murder of Abel.
I believe that all these arguments and debates will be moot soon enough, given the times, but the thing that you have to ask yourself when you participate in them is simply, "What is my motive and can the things I say or write cause a brother to stumble if I'm wrong?" Think about it. What are the consequences to the saints if the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine isn't invented as a clever deception, and what are the consequences to the saints if it is?

(1) I love the Jewish people and will continue to love them without strings attached even if they don't love me back. I am pro-Israel.
(2) I believe the Friends of Israel believe in a pre-trib rapture. They are supportive of Jewish people and the Jewish state of Israel.
(3) I have always questioned everything I've believed and I have researched it more than some other Christians. We may be wrong in the sense that God didn't reveal everything about a subject which is possible. The question you should be asking is, "what if you are wrong?"
(4) Most people won't survive the tribulation and I don't care how much you prepare.

What I commonly find in the cult is a consistent willingness to resist the truth -- even as they speak of love and grace. You can't have love and grace without the truth. This is what is meant by rightly dividing the word of truth. Regarding the period preceding the return of Christ, Paul wrote that there is a "deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth..." (II Thes. 2:10). This verse speaks volumes to me, for I believe it directly applies to the subject of this thread.

I don't know where to start in responding to you. I'd rather not bother.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

1) I love the Jewish people and will continue to love them without strings attached even if they don't love me back. I am pro-Israel.

This really exemplifies the root of the problem: people do not know what a Jew is, who Israel is, what the remnant is; they no longer understand what their own standing is in Christ.

(2) I believe the Friends of Israel believe in a pre-trib rapture. They are supportive of Jewish people and the Jewish state of Israel.

Following some group who believes whatever won’t help you. And THE LIE is that this is all about some national/physical/ethnic group.

(3) I have always questioned everything I've believed and I have researched it more than some other Christians.

It’s not about ”research,” either. It’s about submitting to the King; that’s where the wisdom comes from.

We may be wrong in the sense that God didn't reveal everything about a subject which is possible. The question you should be asking is, "what if you are wrong?"

One cannot go “wrong” when one is listening to and following the King. Alas, most reading this are not born again -- “Christian” or unbeliever.

(4) Most people won't survive the tribulation and I don't care how much you prepare.

“Most people are hellbound” -- it’s Scripture. (The path to destruction is broad and many there be that go thereat.).

Seek Jesus, the real one, while you still can.

 

[Chuckt]

It is more trouble responding to you than its worth.