How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, Regarding your words: "When The Thief of Sardis (Jesus) states that those who do not repent and watch "will... not know what hour (he) will come upon thee" (Rev 3:3), he states that his coming will then be "as a thief." (Rev 3:3). Much later, in Revelation 16:15, Jesus says "Behold, I come as a thief... Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

I re-posted a study I did on this and I'd like your input. The post is my reasons why I don't believe it has post-trib significance.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I re-posted a study I did on this and I'd like your input. The post is my reasons why I don't believe it has post-trib significance.

Even though I used the term "post-tribulationist," it was a practical move to quickly establish a familiar baseline. The Lord taught me a painful lesson awhile back about the consequences of accepting those manmade labels.

In any case, I want to stand in truth before my Master. Let's hash this out together.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I find it amusing that people will argue against something by using Scripture that doesn't address the subject to dismiss the subject they're arguing against as not existing!

The other thing is taking a single verse out of context and making it say more than it was possibly intended to say. (John 3:13 for example)

What's worse is taking a single word - thief - and building a whole complex eschatology out of it when "like a thief" is a descriptive term that has more than one possible meaning!

Mark - Post midpoint of the one 'seven' / post Great Tribulation / pre-Wrath rapture -- yeah, we're going to go Heaven - kind of guy.

 

[michaelvpardo]

If Christ does not call his saints pre trib then he comes not as a thief.

Christ will come as a thief in the night to those who aren't expecting His return (which is the majority of the planet), but the Church (His body, not some denomination) are to be ready and looking for His appearing. Its really not that complicated if you can accept the idea that most people are not born again in Christ, that most people are little more than heathens when it comes to personal belief, and that exceedingly few have put their trust entirely in Him and abandoned any notion of self righteousness. If there are those within the church community who aren't looking for His appearing (and there is), then they either remain spiritually dead and have no real desire for His return, or they remain ignorant of what the scripture says, never having read the scriptures for themselves and satisfying their curiosity over doctrine by listening to "blind teachers of the blind" or false apostles saying "peace, peace" when there is no peace for the wicked.

What I commonly find in the cult is a consistent willingness to resist the truth -- even as they speak of love and grace. You can't have love and grace without the truth. This is what is meant by rightly dividing the word of truth. Regarding the period preceding the return of Christ, Paul wrote that there is a "deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth..." (II Thes. 2:10). This verse speaks volumes to me, for I believe it directly applies to the subject of this thread.


Having fought this battle for over 20 years, I already know how most will respond to this post. The Lord's judgment is destined to fall because, in spite of this post, and the enormous knowledge that is readily available to any Christian that will simply study their bible for themselves as they are instructed to do, most Christians still have itching ears. For this cause, God says "Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed" (Isa. 65:12, 13).

Thank you for your frankness and honesty. I've been unable to explain the problematic nature of the "rapture" doctrine's affect upon the faith of the weak, but you've done that quite well in this last post. I have a deep sorrow within me for those Pastors, some of whom I know and love, who have continued to teach and cling to this pervasive and destructive doctrine, as they will bear the brunt of the guilt for those whose faith has been damaged by it and will be made to stumble.
I don't believe, however, that personal survivalist practices will do much to preserve Christians after the rise of the anti-Christ. The Lord has promised to preserve a remnant (always) and to keep His faithful ones from "the hour of temptation," but the strength of the congregation of God has always been found in their times of willingness to serve each other in obedience, rather than serve themselves in their personal pursuits.
The church will be forced to resort to things like communal living and mutual support as they had done in the first century.
In "the west" (to lump together the leading western nations under a common term for them) the culture has gone soft, people have grown accustomed to creature comforts and are disturbed by the notion of having to live with just the necessities of life. The Lord in His grace has begun slowly destroying the economic stability of the world system, so that His people will begin to learn how to become content with less and remain grateful for His provision.
In the west, communal living has been associated with Communism and godlessness, while the right to own property has been elevated to immutability in the minds of many. I believe that responsible elders in the church should be identifying places of potential safe havens for relocated communities, away from the main population centers, with sufficient natural resources to support a refugee community. If we were to leave this to the government, we would find ourselves in camps little more hospitable than the concentration camps of WWII's Germany or the barren wastelands that the native Americans were forced to move in to.
I don't know if there are enough Christians with sufficient holdings of arable land that would open their gates to fugitive brothers in Christ. In the U.S. there is more than enough government land in the national parks and forestry system to support a large Christian population (especially in the U.S. Northwest and Alaska,) but if our nation capitulates to the New World Order of the anti-Christ, its doubtful that the government would support the right of citizens to make use of such lands to maintain their freedom, or be willing to suffer the existence of an underground economy free of their control. I don't know if such places exist anywhere in the world, but I do know that the anti-Christ will have to concentrate his efforts at control over the population where the bulk of the population resides (in and around the major cities of the world) and will only be able to bring force to bear upon more remote communities after he has established his control over the major populations. In other words, it will be safer to live like Abraham than like Lot as the approach of our Savior draws near.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Michael, I appreciate your post and regarding a pre-trib rapture you are correct concerning readiness. However, I would like to interject that it is possible to believe that the Body of Christ will be here to endure the great trib but still be raptured prior to the out-pouring of God's wrath (the vial judgments).

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I would like to interject that it is possible to believe that the Body of Christ will be here to endure the great trib but still be raptured prior to the out-pouring of God's wrath (the vial judgments).

Yes, "it is possible to believe that." But is that belief the truth? I believe the evidence is clear that ALL will experience a period of tribulation -- some (his born again) will be guided and protected through it, while others (the children of disobedience) will not be.

What a refreshing post from Michael V Pardo! I will casually reply within the copy, in red text.

Thank you for your frankness and honesty. I've been unable to explain the problematic nature of the "rapture" doctrine's affect upon the faith of the weak, but you've done that quite well in this last post. I have a deep sorrow within me for those Pastors, some of whom I know and love, who have continued to teach and cling to this pervasive and destructive doctrine, as they will bear the brunt of the guilt for those whose faith has been damaged by it and will be made to stumble. There is a reason why our persecution begins in this succession, because it takes a saint to know a saint. That's why the greatest danger that is coming upon the church is going to come from within the church. John 16:2 says that in the end, they (the religious but ultimately unbelieving crowd) will KILL us (the born again), thinking they're doing service to God! Today's chat forums are only slightly less dangerous lol. I don't believe, however, that personal survivalist practices will do much to preserve Christians after the rise of the anti-Christ. Those practices can do much, IF and ONLY IF the Lord has directed them to do it! And that would require them to SEEK HIM FIRST. HOW MANY ARE SEEKING HIM FIRST??? The Lord has indeed told ME to thusly prepare. And I do not yet know if my preparations are intended for my family and me, or ultimately for someone else! I have had several (3) of what I call "mana dreams," where the Lord has shown me that he will be providing for me during the persecution and tribulation. So it's no longer about me, about my selfish self; it's going to be about witnessing to others, about helping others. Also, I find it very interesting that the Holy Bible indicates the wilderness as a viable and even desireable refuge! The Lord has promised to preserve a remnant (always) and to keep His faithful ones from "the hour of temptation," but the strength of the congregation of God has always been found in their times of willingness to serve each other in obedience, rather than serve themselves in their personal pursuits. Amen.
The church will be forced to resort to things like communal living and mutual support as they had done in the first century. Either that, or to cannabilism. Yes, cannabilism will be practiced.
In "the west" (to lump together the leading western nations under a common term for them) the culture has gone soft, people have grown accustomed to creature comforts and are disturbed by the notion of having to live with just the necessities of life. The Lord in His grace has begun slowly destroying the economic stability of the world system, so that His people will begin to learn how to become content with less and remain grateful for His provision. Indeed. Judgment is even now at their doors.
In the west, communal living has been associated with Communism and godlessness, while the right to own property has been elevated to immutability in the minds of many. Caesar's "rights" are all conditional, to be granted and revoked by him at whim (civil idolatry). Whereas there are no rights mentioned in the Holy Bible, except the right to the tree of life for the born again. I believe that responsible elders in the church should be identifying places of potential safe havens for relocated communities, away from the main population centers, with sufficient natural resources to support a refugee community. Yes. People don't understand that Pharaoh instituted the world's first income tax (20%) (Gen. 47:26), took their land and force-relocated the people to cities to smooth out a more efficient money machine (Gen. 47:21), and exempted the priests from taxation and gave them food and land (Gen 47:22, 26)! Nothing has changed to this day! Your "safe havens" comment is all about the command to "come out of her, touch not the unclean thing." So where are those "responsible elders?" Most don't even know anyone else in their "church" hierarchy, outside of their pastor. The Pastor role has been exalted out to the stratosphere (aka the "Superstar Syndrome"), while the other functions of the body of Christ are left vulnerable as atrophied or non-existent. This has happened because the earthly shepherd has become the sheep's favorite, rather than the heavenly Shepherd. What I'm saying is that "the church" is so busted up now that we must meet people where they are at, individually, one step at a time. If we were to leave this to the government The ungodly gov't (to which the ignorant have voluntarily submitted) is the instigator, empowered by Satan. we would find ourselves in camps little more hospitable than the concentration camps of WWII's Germany or the barren wastelands that the native Americans were forced to move in to. Absolutely. Two of my children and myself (that's three members of five) have been shown by, AND HAD CONFIRMED by, the Lord, PRECISELY that scenario. And it only continues downhill from there.
I don't know if there are enough Christians with sufficient holdings of arable land that would open their gates to fugitive brothers in Christ. All the gold and all the silver is mine, says the Lord. The earth and the fullness thereof is mine, says the Lord. That means WE OWN NOTHING. You spent 15-30 of the best years of your life, living in bondage, paying off a mort-gage (i.e. "death pledge"). You finally get the deed to "your" house/land, only to find you are not listed as "owner" on the deed, but rather as TENANT. Try missing one property tax ("rates") payment, and you will find out rather quickly who actually claims ownership of it. THEY LIED TO YOU. So the "land ownership/possession" issue will work itself out in God's plan and God's timing. He will provide for his. In the U.S. there is more than enough government land in the national parks and forestry system to support a large Christian population (especially in the U.S. Northwest and Alaska,) YES. But if our nation capitulates to the New World Order of the anti-Christ, IT ALREADY HAS; they are one and the same. its doubtful that the government would support the right of citizens to make use of such lands to maintain their freedom, or be willing to suffer the existence of an underground economy free of their control. We MUST NOT look to the Beast in efforts to obtain mercy from the Beast! We need to get this message: If we want the ungodly gov't to GET OUT OF OUR LIFE, then we must STOP HOLDING IT UP! I don't know if such places exist anywhere in the world, They do; I have been to several. But again, the FIRST PRIORITY is to get on your knees and seek GOD'S FACE ON IT. He WILL direct you. but I do know that the anti-Christ will have to concentrate his efforts at control over the population where the bulk of the population resides (in and around the major cities of the world) and will only be able to bring force to bear upon more remote communities after he has established his control over the major populations. In other words, it will be safer to live like Abraham than like Lot as the approach of our Savior draws near. Exactly. But know that even the "remote communities" will eventually be persecuted. "ALL who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution." It's only a matter of time. My best advice is this: 1) Seek the Lord, not chat forum charlatans, or gov't handouts. Seek the King in prayer like you have never before; 2) Get out of debt NOW, even if that means taking a loss. Those reading this are, on average, $14,000 in debt and still looking at more debt for stupid things like sending their children to the wolves, to Caesar-run indoctrination centers/schools, because they want to please their children (and themselves), rather than please God. Debtor's prisons have been reinstituted; incarceration/quarantine has been privatized. Asset forfeiture is a reality, but God said he will provide. People, pull your heads out of the TV box and away from the satanic media; pull your children back under your authority i.e. out of Caesar's schools. Fathers, grow some hair and begin leading your family as God so commands. Live and act today like it was your last day alive. Stop worrying (it's a sin) about your physical life and its comforts. Rest in the peace of the King and not on your couch or in "your" soon-to-be-confiscated bank account.

The pre-trib "rapture" theory is a doctrine hatched in hell, and which fits hand-in-glove with the NWO agenda. Stop listening to its "Don't worry; be happy" mantra.

Thanks for your honest and thought-provoking post.

 

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If it were not pre-trib then Christ comes not as a thief
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Lot
If it were not pre-trib then there is no use being ready for it
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in times we think not
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be in the field and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be at the wheel grinding and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah

I heard John MacArthur say that if the rapture were not pre-trib then it would be a very quick trip up then to come back and reign with Christ.

For those not familiar with the development of Rapture dogma, or for those who simply choose to ignore the truth, it should come as a shock to learn that the whole Rapture thing was an invention of an American con man. Actually two.

Prior to the mid-19th century there was no formal extraction of scripture identifying the modern concept of rapturism. At that time, John Nelson Darby wrote his treatise on Dispensationalism which was initially intended to present a linear view of history based upon pre and post resurrection distributions of Almighty Grace. So far so good, but the man went off the road when he began an extended discussion about millennialism.

Millenialism, in all its several forms, had been around since the early days of Christendom and had been a popular topic since it packaged complex eschatological forms into a neat theory. It was also liberally used to justify evangelism of the west. So far so good, but Mr. Darby wasn't satisfied with what worked. He wanted to go a step further and in doing so stepped into a quagmire of logical extension of millennialism.

At the beginning of the twentieth century, the Christian view of millennialism needed a major adjustment. No longer were we to expect the utopian age on earth before the return of Christ. The ravages of inhumane wars pretty much proved that wasn't going to happen. Today, in the enlightened twenty first century, when even the existence of God is called into question, the idea of the millennium is divided between those who doubt it will ever happen on earth and those who believe it will happen after the second coming of Christ to the earth.

And if that wasn't enough to confuse the unchurched, the notion of the rapture, Darby's fantasy of the 2nd coming, is added to the volatile mix. You see, before Darby's rapturist notions became widely accepted, he consulted with a group of witches. Following that encounter, the dogma took off like the proverbial wildfire. Scofield got on board with it and included it in his new reference Bible. As a result, we have now today millions of sincere believers accepting rubbish as some sort of auxiliary gospel.

It doesn't matter what the truth is, they believe it. It doesn't matter that the facts can be discovered by anyone who takes the time to find them. It doesn't matter that over the course of the century and a half that the dogma has been accepted that its base doctrine, millennialism, has suffered a major change. It doesn't matter that the concept is illogical in the extreme.

People believe it and for no other reason or justification than that people believe it. The idea is widely accepted because so many accept the idea. It is circular logic and has no real basis in scripture or logic or truth.

Which is why people that like to think through their beliefs will always have a problem with the Rapture.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Trekson]

Hi RJP, Your words: "People believe it and for no other reason or justification than that people believe it. The idea is widely accepted because so many accept the idea. It is circular logic and has no real basis in scripture or logic or truth."

If you're talking about a "pre-trib" rapture, I agree. But if you're talking about the "rapture" as common usage for be "caught up" then I disagree. People believe it because the concept is in the bible, it's a promise Christ made and it is quite logical when one can get out of their denial and look at prophecy as a whole and not in the restricted confines of one's personal eschatology.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

But if you're talking about the "rapture" as common usage

What do you think, God thinks about "common usage"? Answer: "That which is esteemed among men is abomination unto God."

People believe it because the concept is in the bible, it's a promise Christ made...

Wrong. People "believe" the modern heresy which is "rapture" precisely because they have chosen to listen to those preaching that itchy-ear unscriptural rubbish, which would include the repeating of that drivel in these forums.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, your words: "What do you think, God thinks about "common usage"? Answer: "That which is esteemed among men is abomination unto God."

Considering much of the bible is written in terms and styles that were "common usage" of their day, I don't think He minds at all.

Somehow I don't believe that how you're using that verse applies to God or His word. I believe the thought behind that phrase are: "things that one "esteems" above God." Just because some of us believe in a biblical teaching that you don't believe in doesn't mean we have some evil intent or hidden purpose. I think your disdain for this teaching comes from some past offense because your deep-seated irrationality towards simple word usage is highly irregular. One can disagree without having to assume your discussion partner is evil or sinful because they don't share your point of view.

Your words: "People "believe" the modern heresy which is "rapture" precisely because they have chosen to listen to those preaching that itchy-ear unscriptural rubbish, which would include the repeating of that drivel in these forums."

Yeah, people called Christ, Martin Luther and others of his kind heretics too, so I'm in good company. If you don't want to hear me project positive comments on what I view as a sound biblical teaching then don't write articles blasting what I believe. You have a right to your opinion but so do I and If I think you're preaching pharasaical, unsound doctrine then I'm going to call you on it, just as you do me.

There are plenty of other topics out there to discuss, can we move on?

 

[sojourner4Christ]

Considering much of the bible is written in terms and styles that were "common usage" of their day, I don't think He minds at all.

What you (or I) may “think” doesn’t count for beans before the King. The issue as always, for the born again believer, is, What saith Scripture? We do know it doesn’t say “rapture.”

The Holy Bible warns us to be not many masters because, for example, so many others are influenced by our words in such a public forum as this. Thus, the accountability level is rightfully higher.

Just because some of us believe in a biblical teaching that you don't believe in doesn't mean we have some evil intent or hidden purpose.

What I may believe or what "some of us believe" is not the issue. What it “means” is that your "teaching" re: the so-called "rapture," has been shown to be at variance with scripture itself. And those errors have been exposed from several Scriptural sources, yet you continue to insinuate the dead thing into this and other threads.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: -- Rev. 22:18

I think your disdain for this teaching...

What you or I may “think” counts for zero; rather, what saith Scripture? And here you would 'disdainfully' attempt to shift the focus away from your accountability and toward me. Shame on you.

One can disagree without having to assume your discussion partner is evil or sinful because they don't share your point of view.

You are not my enemy. And stop acting as if I am yours. Those who truly love the King seek admonishment, seek correction, and desire to come to the light that their deeds may be tested and made manifest. You, however, have been full of excuses and deflections on this issue.

Yeah, people called Christ, Martin Luther and others of his kind heretics too, so I'm in good company.

Rather, as yet another poster here stated, “People believe it and for no other reason or justification than that people believe it. The idea is widely accepted because so many accept the idea.”

If you don't want to hear me project positive comments on what I view as a sound biblical teaching...

Who's interested in our “comments? It’s nothing personal. We’re interested in God’s truth. And when one repeatedly speaks against a clearly presented teaching of Scripture, they can expect to be corrected. I pray you receive this message.

...then don't write articles blasting what I believe. You have a right to your opinion...

I don’t focus on what you “believe;” that’s entirely your responsibility. I do care when God’s word is maligned by perhaps well-intentioned yet scripturally ignorant people who value “opinion” over the truth AND then seek to likewise influence others. God hates those who turn aside.

If you feel “blasted” by my replies, you ought to take a closer look at what you’re spreading here. I strongly suggest you cease the Passion Plays and get serious about the word you would claim to love (and I'm not referring to the non-scriptural word "rapture").
.

...If I think you're preaching pharasaical, unsound doctrine then I'm going to call you on it, just as you do me.

Bring it on. If I’m mucked up, I want to know about it so I can repent, make correction and stand blameless before the King in truth. Thus I’m not interested in ”opinions;” I’m interested in God’s truth.

There are plenty of other topics out there to discuss, can we move on?

I’m sure we will. Yet we have a huge chunk of sucker bait here in the form of a poisoned OP that keeps getting nibbled for fleshly reasons previously cited.

A lie travels around the world twice before truth puts its boots on.

Let’s both keep our boots on and keep walking toward the light.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C,

Your words: “What you (or I) may “think” doesn’t count for beans before the King. The issue as always, for the born again believer, is, What saith Scripture? We do know it doesn’t say “rapture.” You presently stand guilty before the King and his chosen (and no longer ignorantly!) for continuing in your unscriptural “common usage” behavior.”

Thankfully, you’re not the judge. There is no problem with using “unscriptural terms” when discussing biblical concepts. Hebrew, Greek and Ye Olde King’s English, are not my natural language.

Your words: “The Holy Bible warns us to be not many masters because, for example, so many others are influenced by our words in such a public forum as this. Thus, the accountability level is rightfully higher.”

I have said and done nothing that I am ashamed of.

Your words: “If this had been a one-on-one, a Mathew chapter 18 would have been in order. But you have forfeited that option of private correction when you initially posted the “rapture” falsehood in a public venue and even now continue to defiantly do so.”

Now, you’re just going overboard and getting ridiculously petty. BTW, this isn’t my OP.

Your words: “What I may believe or what "some of us believe" is not the issue. What it “means” is that you your teacing has been shown to be at variance with scripture itself. And those errors have been exposed from several Scriptural sources, yet you continue to insinuate the dead thing into this and other threads.”

No one and I mean no one has ever been able to “prove” that rapture theology is false. You have used no scriptural resources showing otherwise. If anything, you’ve shown that you really don’t know prophetic scripture as well as you think you do.

Your words: “What you or I may “think” counts for zero; rather, what saith Scripture? And here you would attempt to shift the focus away from your accountability. Shame on you.”

I gladly accept accountability for what I write because it is truth as the HS has shown me. Maybe you should question why you aren’t open to the truth.

Your words: “You are not my enemy. And stop acting as if I am yours. Those who truly love the King seek admonishment, seek correction, and desire to come to the light that their deeds may be tested and made manifest. You, however, are nothing but full of excuses and deflections on this issue. Stop whining.”

LOL. Whining!! I’m just defending a spiritual truth you are too stubborn to see. God can’t reveal things to a closed mind. Heb. 11:1 –“ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Sometimes it takes a little faith to understand things that aren’t written down in black and white.

Your words: “Your deflections have been noted by others as well, ala “People believe it and for no other reason or justification than that people believe it. The idea is widely accepted because so many accept the idea.”

I don’t deflect on anything, I just point out the obvious. The highlighted is your proposal, it has NEVER been mine.

Your words: “We’re not interested in your “comments;’ it’s nothing personal. We’re interested in God’s truth. And when you repeatedly speak against the clear teaching of Scripture, you will be corrected. I pray you get this message.”

It is only your OPINION that I speak against scripture, I believe I am speaking what the bible shows us as truth.

Your words: “I don’t focus on what you “believe;” that’s entirely your responsibility. I do care when God’s word is maligned by perhaps well-intentioned yet scripturally ignorant people who value “opinion” over the truth AND then seek to likewise influence others. God hates those who turn aside. You have posed yourself as one about to cross over the line; do not misstep.”

Apparently, you do, who are you to judge me in the manner that you are? It’s not my fault you can’t see what’s right in front of you.

Your words: “Bring it on. If I’m mucked up, I want to know about it so I can repent, make correction and stand blameless before the King in truth. Thus I’m not interested in ”opinions;” I’m interested in God’s truth.”

Apparently not or else the simple truth of the reality of the rapture would have sunk in by now.

Your words: “I’m sure we will. Yet we have a huge chunk of sucker bait here in the form of the OP that keeps getting nibbled for fleshly reasons previously cited.”

Just for clarification, it’s not my OP. I disagree with it as much as you do, just in a different way.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I and others will continue to bring the scriptural truth to bear when false doctrines are spewed here. You may carry on with whatever you perceive necessary to accomplish your intended purpose.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The Rapture is not a false doctrine per se. It is widely taught, but not universally accepted.

The fact that is not accepted by all does not make it a false doctrine. That is your judgment.

We will carry on in the spirit of Paul who taught this message of hope:

1Th 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, Your words: "I and others will continue to bring the scriptural truth to bear when false doctrines are spewed here. You may carry on with whatever you perceive necessary to accomplish your intended purpose."

My only "intended purpose" is to have fellowship and discuss the end-times with those who share the same interest in it as I do. I can back up everything I say with scripture so stop with your false doctrines nonsense and act like a gentleman instead of the Accuser. There are so many biblical ideas, truths and concepts that can be discussed using words not actually used in scripture, it's really hard to believe you have such a problem with the use of a single word when used to describe an actual biblical concept.

If this discussion were to take place 1200 yrs. ago as the bible was being translated by a pair of monks, I would be the one saying, "No, brother John, "caught up" is a valid interpretation of "harpazo". And you would be the one saying, "No, no, no brother Jim, we can't go using unscriptural terms, we must keep the word "harpazo" as the original Greek author intended....

I've got an idea...Instead of criticizing everyone else's viewpoint, why don't you actually write one of your own and show us why believers won't get "caught up" as Paul teaches because as I've said before the word "rapture" only means to be 'caught up"!

 

[sojourner4Christ]

I got an idea...Instead of criticizing everyone else's viewpoint, why don't you actually write one of your own and show us why believers won't get "caught up" as Paul teaches because as I've said before the word "rapture" only means to be 'caught up"!

That attempted misdirect would be merely humorous if the stakes weren't so high. But you're presently blinded to that danger.

As far as any "pre-trib rapture," that theory can be scripturally demolished on timing alone.

You are choosing to operate, indeed witness, from a position of weakness by insinuating "rapture" rather than sticking with the clear word of God.

Evangelical Christianity is on the critical list, in freefall, and the pre-trib "rapture" theory is a major component to the end times deception. You continue to insinuate the scriptural "caught up" into the unscriptural manmade "rapture" doctrine. Why? ...because you are betting on the popularity of "rapture" theory to float your compromised boat. You think "harpazo -to-"rapture"" is cutesy, even novel, a "feather-ruffling" preventative, but you are wrong. Dead wrong.

Touch not the unclean thing.

To restate:

I and others will continue to bring the scriptural truth to bear when false doctrines are spewed here. You will do whatever you deem necessary to accomplish your intended purpose.

 

[Trekson]

Hi S4C, Your words:"As far as any "pre-trib rapture," that theory can be scripturally demolished on timing alone...Evangelical Christianity is on the critical list, in freefall, and the pre-trib "rapture" theory is a major component to the end times deception."

I don't know why this is so hard for you to hear. Do you ever read what I write or just jump to an assumption? I'm going to put this in caps and maybe you'll hear me. I AM JUST AS MUCH AGAINST PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEOLOGY AS YOU ARE!!! The pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib or pre-wrath "timing" of the rapture has nothing to do with what the "word" rapture means.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi RJP, Your words: "People believe it and for no other reason or justification than that people believe it. The idea is widely accepted because so many accept the idea. It is circular logic and has no real basis in scripture or logic or truth."

If you're talking about a "pre-trib" rapture, I agree. But if you're talking about the "rapture" as common usage for be "caught up" then I disagree. People believe it because the concept is in the bible, it's a promise Christ made and it is quite logical when one can get out of their denial and look at prophecy as a whole and not in the restricted confines of one's personal eschatology.

First of all, those that believe in the rapture refuse to acknowledge the truth of its falsehood. It was invented by John Nelson Darby (a consort of witches by the way), promoted by Scofield and pandered by twenty-first century publishers just as it was in the 19th century.

Nowhere did I ever deny the second coming of Christ. That's a common false trail thrown in the path of the argument, by the way. Those that refuse to do their homework hide behind misconception and redirection. Those that truly want to know the truth will study what I've asserted. If they do, they can come up with no other conclusion than that the 19th century idea of escape before or during the tribulation is pure rubbish. It is born of a cowardly attitude and vacant hope that somehow someway they will not have to endure those terrible times.

To prove it, let me make a small prediction.

Millenialism, which is the foundation of rapturism, has its own digressions. For most of the history of Christendom the notion of pre-millenialism held a primary place in eschatology. Simply stated, the world would achieve utopian status prior to the second coming. The bloody wars of the 19th century and WWI put an end to that idea. It became obvious to the most simple minded that the world wasn't going to achieve utopia at any time - ever. Not on its own, at least.

Enter Post-millennialism and its bastard nephew Amillenialism. Those that refuse to believe Christ has anything but a philosophical effect upon a man's life doubt any sort of reign in the world. Amillenialists pretty much deny the 2nd coming and any sort of Kingdom other than an ethereal one. Most orthodox Christians believe that Christ will indeed return to earth and that his second coming will usher in His Kingdom on earth. Nasty things will prevail prior to that advent and that's where tribulation dogma and rapturists diverge from the normal interpretation of scripture.

As millennialism went, so will go rapturism. That's my prediction.

Folks who hoped for a utopia prior to Christ's 2nd coming were bitterly disappointed when it didn't happen. Moreover, they had to swallow a bitter pill when they realized the world was becoming worse rather than better. So it will follow that when the tribulation puts its hard heel upon the world's neck those that hoped for an early excusal from school will discover they're going to have to sit in for the whole term - until the Head Master comes to call school over for the day. But not until then.

So by now you've guessed that I'm convinced by logic and the pattern of events both past and current that Christ will return to earth and that nobody NOBODY will get a boost out of the trouble before then.

But it goes further than that. I've done my homework and it is also my opinion that those who hold to the rapture myth do so out of a sense of desperation and no desire whatsoever to pursue the truth. I looked it up and it didn't shake my faith in Christ one dot. In fact, it made faith stronger because Christ will see me through any difficulty. I don't have to rely upon fantasy, Star Trek evacuations or a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[sojourner4Christ]

When you're dealing with the natural man (those who reject the Spirit of God), you identify yourself as being of the world when you speak the words of the world.

1 John 4:5, "They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world…"

You stamp their seal on your heart by using their words. They see what's on your heart by the words that come out of your mouth.

Matthew 15:18, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man."

What are the repercussions of using wrong words innocently?

Matthew 12:36-37, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

This doesn't mean you'll be condemned to hell, but you will condemn yourself in other ways; like when they bring you before the magistrate and throw you in jail. The day of judgment is every day, not just some specific day far distant in the future, for we set a Record of our walk here in the Court of God and it is that Record that must be found in the Lamb's Book of Life. If our Record is not there, then we were not in him and never can partake of his blessings. So heed this instruction from God:

Proverbs 6:2, "Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth."

So, if you're going to use the words of the world, be aware that you will be chastised for using those words. Therefore, words have a tremendous impact on us in doing the things we do, and in the way that we perceive things around us. If we perceive them in the way that the human being perceives them, then the world will perceive us as being one of them, as being of the world.

To avoid being perceived as being of the world, we need to speak the words of God in Truth. We need to speak about the Christ and speak as he spoke. Jesus makes a close connection between himself and his words:

Mark 8:38, "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

And it is Jesus who gave us our delegation of authority.

John 20:21, "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you."

So he has sent us forth into the world to speak his words. And when we fail to do that we have failed him, and we have not honoured and glorified him. We act in his name and by his authority. So the only words that you can speak are the words that he puts in your mouth. Otherwise you're not acting in his name and by his authority, you're acting in the name of somebody else. The minister speaks as his master. When a bondman goes out and does anything, he does it in the name of his master. A third party, when they see the bondman do a particular act, they don't see the bondman doing that act, they see the master doing that act through the bondman himself. Even the heathen understand this when they go into treaty negotiations. They only speak the words that their sovereign has put in their mouth to the party sitting opposite the table from them. If they speak any other words, they're not a true ambassador, they're a phony messenger, they're a liar. And the treaty they sign is of no force and effect. All bondmen of Christ are "...ambassadors for Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:20, Ephesians 6:20), so speak like the sovereign who sent us.

John 3:34, "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God."

But it goes further than that. I've done my homework and it is also my opinion that those who hold to the rapture myth do so with desperation and no desire whatsoever to pursue the truth.

Indeed. And of the unscriptural word "rapture":

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. -- Job 14:4
.
.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As millennialism went, so will go rapturism. That's my prediction.

So you throw Pre-Millennialism, Post-Millennialism, and Amillennialism out: what are you besides being objectionable? A Preterist?