How could the Messiah be sinless?

[justbyfaith]

No, you are choosing an equivocal option, even might mean the same, and it may not. We don't build our theologies on ambiguous passages.
Since either can be true, although, like I said, the context DEMANDS that they are two distinct and autonomous beings, you'd bring more glory to God if you'd just find the word trinity in the Bible, and base your incomprehensible and defamatory doctrine on that premise.
It's shameful that you need to decipher the word 'even' in order to make your point, as in all the trinitarian's other inferred proof-text.

Topical context (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21) demands that the translation of even be accepted. Since there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and that Lord is the Father according to Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21.

It presents a problem for you as a denier of Christ's Deity; because scripture is clear in saying that Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv), 1 Corinthians 8:6).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Clearly, if there is one Lord and that Lord is the Father, to proclaim that Jesus is the Lord would be to proclaim that He is the Father.

There is no getting around this.

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[DNB]

So the scripture is retarded according to you.

That was a childish remark?
No Renniks, you're interpretation of Scripture, obviously.

 

[DNB]

He is the propitiation for our sins. I have no idea what you are going on about. The results of dying as our Ransom are anything but nonsensical.

Make sense please! The Judge, or the offended party, cannot take the penalty of the culprit. This is law 101. What in the world are you talking about?

 

[justbyfaith]

Make sense please! The Judge, or the offended party, cannot take the penalty of the culprit. This is law 101. What in the world are you talking about?

Actually, nothing is impossible with God (Luke 1:37).

 

[DNB]

DNB, who do you say does 1 Timothy 6:15 refer to as the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see?

GOD

DNB, who do you say does Psalm 136:3 refer to as the Lord of lords?

GOD

1. What do you understand when scriptures says of the Son, Jesus Christ, as the "prototokos" or "firstborn"? I already told you.

2. What do you understand when scriptures says of the Son, Jesus Christ, as the "prototokos pases ktiseos" or "firstborn over all creation"? I already told you.

3. Other than God, who do you say could man worship and serve? Jesus Christ

4. Whose way do you say was John the baptist sent to prepare? Jesus Christ

 

[DNB]

Topical context (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21) demands that the translation of even be accepted. Since there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and that Lord is the Father according to Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21.

It presents a problem for you as a denier of Christ's Deity; because scripture is clear in saying that Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv), 1 Corinthians 8:6).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Clearly, if there is one Lord and that Lord is the Father, to proclaim that Jesus is the Lord would be to proclaim that He is the Father.

There is no getting around this.

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Yo JBF, wuz up!

 

[DNB]

Actually, nothing is impossible with God (Luke 1:37).

Yes there is, stupidity is impossible with God. Have you not read?

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes there is, stupidity is impossible with God. Have you not read?

There is even foolishness in God (1 Corinthians 1:18-21); which is wiser than men.

 

[Renniks]

Make sense please! The Judge, or the offended party, cannot take the penalty of the culprit. This is law 101. What in the world are you talking about?

God doesn't work according to man's laws. He can do as he pleases. The scapegoat is a biblical concept. Maybe you need a refresher course in Biblical atonement
The scapegoat would visually and ritually cleanse the nation from the guilt of their sins.
For on this day [Yom Kippur] shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the Lord from all your sins.” (Leviticus 16:30)
The High Priest placed both hands upon the head of the goat and confessed aloud the sins of the nation, transferring them to the goat. This casting of the sins was more than symbolic; it was ritual. As the previous goat was killed as a representative of the nation before God, this goat would carry away the sins as a representative of the nation.
You with me so far?
In the biblical tradition of Yom Kippur, God calls for two goats—one a sin offering for Himself and one as a vehicle to remove the sins from the nation. It’s clear from the text why God wanted this done—so the people would be clean before Him.
Some 40 years before the Temple was destroyed, He provided a once-and-for-all scapegoat who suffered and died a horrific death on a wooden cross. The prophet Isaiah spoke of him, declaring, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24
But who was Jesus? Who is Jesus?
How comforting it is to read, “His name shall be called . . . Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6).

Everlasting, from eternity past to eternity present and future.
What is the meaning of the name “Everlasting Father”? The symbolic use of the Hebrew word father was an expression for “possessor of,” meaning that He became a child in time (through His birth), but He is the Father (and possessor) of eternity. This reveals several aspects of His character:
He inhabits and possesses eternity. “For thus says the High and Lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: ‘I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones’” (ISA. 57:15).
His name is eternal. “His name shall endure forever; His name shall continue as long as the sun. And men shall be blessed in Him; all nations shall call Him blessed” (PS. 72:17).
He is the eternal provider. “He said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son’” (REV. 21:6-7).


And ask yourself this, when he says:"before Abraham was, I am” (JN. 8:58). Why were the Jews furious?
They got it, even if you haven't.

 

[Enoch111]

They got it, even if you haven't.

That is because of WILFUL BLINDNESS. And DNB is an expert at making nasty remarks when his heresies are exposed. I have already reported him, and will do so again if that is all he can come up with.

 

[DNB]

There is even foolishness in God (1 Corinthians 1:18-21); which is wiser than men.

Make up your mind, is God foolish, or is He wise. Your comment stated both.

 

[DNB]

God doesn't work according to man's laws. He can do as he pleases. The scapegoat is a biblical concept. Maybe you need a refresher course in Biblical atonement
The scapegoat would visually and ritually cleanse the nation from the guilt of their sins.
For on this day [Yom Kippur] shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the Lord from all your sins.” (Leviticus 16:30)
The High Priest placed both hands upon the head of the goat and confessed aloud the sins of the nation, transferring them to the goat. This casting of the sins was more than symbolic; it was ritual. As the previous goat was killed as a representative of the nation before God, this goat would carry away the sins as a representative of the nation.
You with me so far?
In the biblical tradition of Yom Kippur, God calls for two goats—one a sin offering for Himself and one as a vehicle to remove the sins from the nation. It’s clear from the text why God wanted this done—so the people would be clean before Him.
Some 40 years before the Temple was destroyed, He provided a once-and-for-all scapegoat who suffered and died a horrific death on a wooden cross. The prophet Isaiah spoke of him, declaring, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Peter 2:24
But who was Jesus? Who is Jesus?
How comforting it is to read, “His name shall be called . . . Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6).

Everlasting, from eternity past to eternity present and future.
What is the meaning of the name “Everlasting Father”? The symbolic use of the Hebrew word father was an expression for “possessor of,” meaning that He became a child in time (through His birth), but He is the Father (and possessor) of eternity. This reveals several aspects of His character:
He inhabits and possesses eternity. “For thus says the High and Lofty One who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: ‘I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones’” (ISA. 57:15).
His name is eternal. “His name shall endure forever; His name shall continue as long as the sun. And men shall be blessed in Him; all nations shall call Him blessed” (PS. 72:17).
He is the eternal provider. “He said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son’” (REV. 21:6-7).


And ask yourself this, when he says:"before Abraham was, I am” (JN. 8:58). Why were the Jews furious?
They got it, even if you haven't.

Get serious Renniks, you can't even hold a straight thought. The point that you were responding to, was in regard to my remark about a sound judicial system. The fundamental necessity behind justice, is the guilty party, or a peer representative, paying for the crime of the culprit. Are you with me so far (somehow I doubt it)? I am saying that it makes no sense for the Legislator, Judge and Jury, to pay for the transgressions of the malefactor.
All you did in your last post was explain the principle of the Scapegoat during Yom Kippur (of which everyone is aware), and then went to say that Jesus is God. You didn't make the connection between the criminal, the saviour and the Judge, in a judicial or judicious manner that glorifies all parties. You keep digressing from the critical points, continuously.

Why were the Jews furious, who can imagine? The incessantly misconstrued Jesus' expressions and comments. But, not even so, the context explains the reasons behind their fury, Jesus was appearing to be greater than the Patriarch of their Religion and Faith, Abraham. And these, in their minds, were grounds to stone him.

John 8:53. Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?”

 

[justbyfaith]

Make up your mind, is God foolish, or is He wise. Your comment stated both.

So does the scripture in question.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
But when Adam had sinned, he had become unclean, corrupted, and unholy.

Prove this! I have no idea what you're talking about? How can man lose a part of his intrinsic constitution? No where in the Bible does it say this. What was Adam before he sinned, meaning, why did he disobey God in the first place? That was an unholy thing to do, even prior to the fall. Being in the image of God does not mean perfect, for there is still free will. Being in the perfected image of Christ, is the goal of man. You are confusing to very distinct principles.

So, obviously you don't believe that when Adam sinned, he had become unclean, corrupted, and unholy. This is what, I would say, I and most here, if not all, could not really understand from you, even from any one who believes as you believe here.

You asked "How can man lose a part of his intrinsic constitution?" Obviously, in the case of Adam, it was because of sin. It was sin that changed Adam from being without sin into being with sin, from being clean to being unclean, from being uncorrupted to being corrupted.

You asked "What was Adam before he sinned, meaning, why did he disobey God in the first place? " Before Adam sinned, as being in the image of God, without sin, clean, uncorrupted, holy. As to why he disobeyed God, you can read Genesis 3. He heeded the voice of his wife and so did not continue in heeding the voice of God.

You said "Being in the image of God does not mean perfect, for there is still free will. Being in the perfected image of Christ, is the goal of man. You are confusing to very distinct principles." Well, that is according to your view. And there is really nothing to confuse there DNB. Jesus was a man too. Should Jesus had sinned, will he be said to be the image of God who is Holy? No sir. For how can a sinner be the image of the Holy God?

To be conformed in the image of Jesus Christ, who is said to be the image of God is the goal of God for those whom He saves. And God's image is nothing less of Jesus Christ.

Tong
R0824

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
You are teaching, in other words, that God had created all of creation for Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ would be reason and purpose behind all creation. And who is Jesus Christ to you? Is he not a creature you say? Now, do you really think and believe that God did not create all things for Himself but for a creature?

Yes, this is exactly what I am professing.

That is clear then. And I disagree.

God is love, prefect, is self-existent, omniscient, omnipotent, ... Therefore, God needs absolutely nothing, for anything.

Well that is your personal conclusion concerning God, which I say is easily refuted by scriptures which speaks of God as have desires, and that God does whatever He pleases.

NO, He did not create the universe for His own pleasure, He is perfectly complete as He is. But, more astutely speaking, He created all for the love of His creatures. He made us, to enjoy Him, not the other way around, as you are so erroneously espousing.

While God is perfectly complete as He is, it does not follow that He desires nothing nor does not take pleasure in anything other than Himself. Everything in creation, God had created according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and glory. And that really need no explaining.

God's first love was Christ, and for him, meaning through him and with him in mind, He created a family/bride for him, that is us. He is pre-eminent over all creation for this reason.
You take away the true love of God when you make Him out to be so nonsensical in His will. He did not exalt Himself to His right-hand, but his first-born creature, who He loved so much that He even handed all authority over to him.
This is the unselfish and unthreatened love of God.

That is your own take of scriptures based on your own understanding.

And that is the result of not really understanding the message of the cross, which to those perishing is foolishness.

And what you say there even refutes what you previously said about God. For you speak of God needing to create in order to love. But then, God is love. Not only after He created, nor only so because of His creation, but even before, even from eternity, God is love.

Tong
R0825

 

[mjrhealth]

Lol, if you have a God you can fully understand, you don't have the God of the Bible, that's for sure. I accept what the Bible teaches about the Trinity and I'm not bothered at all that I cannot fully comprehend how three can be eternally one. If a person starts trying to grasp the incarnation and finds no mystery in how God can be both fully man and fully God, well, he hasn't gone very deep in his worship. The mystery is part of the Glory of the Eternal Deity, that is and was and is to come.

You may be a very confused man when you see Jesus and God, Simon wasnt,

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

so many religious people gnashing there teeth.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
Not only do they (as others also do) perhaps laugh at the trinity nature of God, but first laughed at the message of the cross that is preached. Do you laugh with them?

DNB said:
Yes, of course I laugh at such idiocracy, and defamatory remarks about God. Three persons, identical in all attributes, in one god-head, is utterly redundant, ridiculous and infantile. Why have three omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent persons in the god-head, when only one is necessary to create and maintain the entire universe? You slander God with such irreverent sentiments and theories.

A god-man, what in the world is a god-man? Such vulgar stupidity and nonsense. Every attribute that defines deity, is antithetical to what constitutes humanity. Do you think that you're being clever or pious making such pagan and incomprehensible assertions?
Nothing in what you said there justifies your laughing at the trinity nature of God and of the message of the cross.

Tong2020 said:
To say the least, you laugh because you apparently don't understand what the message of the cross is. This is evident in that you totally ignored this part of my post and I quote:

.....I hope not. For here's what scriptures says concerning those who laugh at the message and preaching of the apostles concerning the Messiah, the Anointed One.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

By the way, do you know the message of the cross? If so, please go ahead and tell us what you say it is. And what do you think is the reason they see the message of the cross to be foolishness?

Your no answer to the questions and your laughing says a lot about you and your view of God and Jesus Christ.

I didn't answer your post because, for one, it's too elementary for this discussion, and two, is not pertinent to it either.
My ridicule of your god-man theory has nothing to do with why people mock the Gospel. For, I could say the same about you, not accepting my position. You're playing a silly and childish game with your rhetoric. I told you why your trinitarian theory is implausible, and you said that my points were irrelevant. You're not being serious!

That is a cheap excuse to evade the questions, I have to say. Well, evidently you can't answer the questions. That says it all then.

And I am not really surprised with that. For if you knew, you would understand who Jesus Christ is.

Tong
R0826

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said:
DNB, who do you say does 1 Timothy 6:15 refer to as the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see?

GOD

Good to know you got that right. Though I hope that you would not change your mind later.

Tong2020 said:
DNB, who do you say does Psalm 136:3 refer to as the Lord of lords?

GOD

Again, good to know you got that right.

But then, did you not say that Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

--------------------

Tong2020 asked:
1. What do you understand when scriptures says of the Son, Jesus Christ, as the "prototokos" or "firstborn"?

I already told you.

And I am here giving you the opportunity to correct your answer. But still you stick with it. Well...I'll leave it at that then.
---------------------

Tong2020 asked:
2. What do you understand when scriptures says of the Son, Jesus Christ, as the "prototokos pases ktiseos" or "firstborn over all creation"?

I already told you.

And I am here giving you the opportunity to correct your answer. But still you stick with it. Well...I'll leave it at that then.
---------------------

Tong2020 asked:
3. Other than God, who do you say could man worship and serve?

Jesus Christ

And why would Jesus, whom for you is not God, be worshiped and served other than God? Did not Jesus Himself said, even to Satan, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."?

Do you worship and serve Jesus Christ, who you consider as only a creature?
If you do, how do you worship Him? How do you serve Him? I am sure you don't like these questions and will not be surprised if you don't answer them like the other simple questions I asked for you to answer.

Do you not read in scriptures:

Romans 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
----------------------

Tong2020 asked:
4. Whose way do you say was John the baptist sent to prepare?

Jesus Christ

You are most certainly right. I hope you will not change your mind later.

Let me give you relevant scriptures to consider.

Matthew 3:3
For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’ ”

Luke 3:4
as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.

John 1:23
He said: “I am ‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

Now, let's see the OT scriptures where the prophet Isaiah spoke of this:

Isaiah 40:3
The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.

Clearly, Isaiah identified who the Lord is, that is, God. Let's see that in the original Hebrew text, that perhaps you will see that truth.

Isaiah 40:3
qō·wl qō·w·rê, bam·miḏ·bār pan·nū de·reḵ Yah·weh; yaš·šə·rū bā·‘ă·rā·ḇāh, mə·sil·lāh lê·lō·hê·nū.

qō·wl = The voice
qō·w·rê = of one crying
bam·miḏ·bār = in the wilderness
pan·nū = Prepare
de·reḵ = the way
Yah·weh = the Lord
yaš·šə·rū = Make straight
bā·‘ă·rā·ḇāh = in the desert
mə·sil·lāh = a highway
lê·lō·hê·nū = for our God

Would you argue against the truth that the Lord Isaiah was referring there is Yahweh ~ God? So, what does say of Jesus Christ to you?

Tong
R0827

 

[Heart2Soul]

The Bible clearly says that every human will sin someday:

There is no human who does not sin. (1 Kings 8:46)

But then how could the Messiah be sinless?

I would say that the spirit in the Messiah was not a human spirit but the spirit of God. The Spirit of God in the flesh, therefore John 1:1 and 14. But then one asks oneself the question, did the incarnation of the Spirit create another person separated from the father? Should one think that God has begotten a real son? That God has begotten a real son sounds illogical to me, since this would then be a second God, but if the Messiah is the Father, one would have to ask oneself why the Bible constantly separates the Son from the Father.

There has to be conception to become impregnated.....so Mary conceived by the miraculous miracle of God....He place His seed in her womb...Jesus wasn't actually conceived like husband and wife conceive a child.

 

[Tong2020]

There has to be conception to become impregnated.....so Mary conceived by the miraculous miracle of God....He place His seed in her womb...Jesus wasn't actually conceived like husband and wife conceive a child.

Yes, the virgin Mary miraculously got pregnant, as there in her womb, is conceived that is of the Holy Spirit (not of man). But what was conceived in her was not a new soul or a new creature. For this is what is said in scriptures concerning the incarnation of the Word, who is the Messiah.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Tong
R0828