How could the Messiah be sinless?

[theophilus]

The Messiah who is the Son of God did not exist before his incarnation, but the Spirit who is in him already existed.
It could be that through the incarnation of the Spirit a separate person has come into being, so the Messiah is not the Father but they have the same "nature" because they have the same Spirit.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3 ESV

This shows that he did exist before his incarnation. He was both God and with God. This was because God is a Trinity, consisting of the Father, the Word (or Son), and the Holy Spirit.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 ESV

He had to become human so he could atone for the sins of humans, but because he was also God his death was enough to atone for all sins.

 

[Taken]

The Spirit of God is not a separate person, he is the personality of God, which means that everything that God is, is his spirit.
But a satisfying answer why the spirit is sometimes separated from the Father and also from the Son, I do not have.
But this is certainly due to the language of the Hebrews, for also a hebrew spoke as if his spirit was not himself.

God IS Spirit.
That which IS God...IS Always IN God, Even When What IS God Comes forth OUT from God.
Thus God IS Never Separated From Himself.

God Himself Identifies what IS IN Him....and Identifies What He Sends Forth OUT from within Himself, while what He sends Forth, Continues To Remain IN Himself.

God Sends Forth out from Himself...
His Word.
While His Word Remains IN God.
Gods Word, God Named; Jesus.
God SAID;
WHEN: God Sent forth out of His Mouth His Word: To Earth. God Prepared a Body (in the Likeness as an Earthly man) for His Word, For men OF the Earth TO SEE, and Hear, face to face.
God SAID; He would be A Father to His Word, and His Word would Be to God, A Son.

Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I send it.

Heb 10
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb 1
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Phil 2:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 16:[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

While ON Earth...Gods Word Speaks. Men hear. Some Believe, Some Doubt, Some Fear, Some Reject, Some Want To Kill His Body.
Some TRY to stone Him to Bodily Death.

That Body was Expressly Prepared...
With Pure Blood, To be Given FOR the FORGIVENESS of a Believing man's Sins.
And With Pure Flesh, to be Given FOR the Life of any Believing man of the World.

Matt 26:
[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

"While" ON Earth: IN a humble no Reputation Servants Form (Body)...Something Begins being Revealed...

POWER- The Word of God Speaks, and What He Says Instantly Occurs.
He speaks To Heal the Lame...the Lame are Instantly Restored.
He speaks To Rise the Dead back to the Living...the Dead Instantly rises up to Living.

The Word of God came forth out of Gods Mouth, from Heaven, to Earth, in the Likeness as a man of no Reputation.

As His Power came Down from Heaven TO Him...Gods Word Asks...(His Disciples)...whom do men say the He IS.
Followed by the Word of God asking (His Disciples)...whom do "THEY" think The Word of God IS.
Matt 16: 13-14-15

Simon, (This Simon, whom Jesus Surnamed Peter) answered;

Matt: 16
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Instantly: all of Jesus' Disciples were confirmed the Knowledge, That The Word of God / called Jesus / IS The Christ Messiah OF God.

How DID Simon Peter Know the Answer?
Jesus Told Him HOW he Knew the answer.

Was it because a FLESH and BLOOD man had told Simon Peter the answer? No.

God in Heaven Gave Simon the Answer.
Matt16:

[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Notice...
When Simon joined as one of Jesus' Disciples, he had no surname. He was known as The Son of Jona...thus was called Simon Bar (meaning "son of") jona (Jona).

Jesus giving Simon Barjona, the surname, "Peter"... separated This Simon from: Other Simons in Scripture AND from Jona (Simons "natural" father.

And Jesus, using Simons natural identity, Simon Barjona ... revealed God Blesses believers, while IN in "natural identity" (name).

So now The Word of God; seen by Earthly men, in the bodily form as an Earthly man; is Revealed; Is Gods Messiah, and Gods Messiah;
IS called CHRIST.
Also Revealed IN Scripture IS: (for examples)
CHRIST;
IS the POWER "of" God.
...(1 Cor 1:24)
IS the WISDOM "of" God.
...(1 Cor 1:24)
IS the SEED "of" God.
...(Gal 3:16...Luke 8:11)
IS God Himself.
...(Eph 1:9)

But a satisfying answer why the spirit is sometimes separated from the Father and also from the Son, I do not have.

The Heavenly "Lord God Almighty," IS ONE Supreme Everlasting GOD. He is B] Never [/B] "Separated" From Himself, or IN conflict WITHIN Himself.

God IS Our Example FOR What He Desires FOR His created man-kind...and Our Teacher FOR HOW man-kind CAN Become "MADE" restored from man's Corruption TO Gods Likeness of WHOLLY "Holy" and THUS, Forever WITH Him.

God Himself ESTABLISHES What To Call Him, regarding WHAT particular THING He IS Doing.

Men DO the SAME.
ONE Individual man...can be Called By multiple Names and Titles...
Donald Trump (for Example)
Called Husband...exclusive called by his wife.
Called father...exclusive called by his children.
Called son...exclusive called by his parents.
Called brother...exclusive by his lawful Siblings.
Called Brother...exclusive by Same IN Christ.
Called CEO...regarding His business ventures.
Called President...of the Office he Governs.
Called Friend...thru particular Formed bonds.
Called Head of Household...exclusive to his personal estate.
Etc.

Get the Point? Doesn't matter How many Names, Titles, one has...or according to What Works are accomplished Under that Name or Title...it IS the Same ONE man...and regarding The Lord God Almighty IT IS the Same ONE God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Renniks]

The Messiah who is the Son of God did not exist before his incarnation, but the Spirit who is in him already existed.
It could be that through the incarnation of the Spirit a separate person has come into being, so the Messiah is not the Father but they have the same "nature" because they have the same Spirit.

Only that's not what the scripture says. The Word was there in the beginning. He didn't come into being. He was always the third person of the trinity and always the Son of God and always one with the Father. That's basic Christain orthodoxy and I think you are into heretic territory.

 

[Renniks]

So, the question is, before He took on flesh, was Jesus a 2nd God apart from the Father? Was He 1/3 of God?

Or, was He God?

Yes, he was 1/3 of the Trinity, but at the same time, no, because each part is fully God. No, we can't comprehend it, but he was also never a 2nd God, he was always fully God and so were the Spirit and the Father, even while he was on the cross.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The Spirit of God is not a separate person, he is the personality of God, which means that everything that God is, is his spirit.
But a satisfying answer why the spirit is sometimes separated from the Father and also from the Son, I do not have.
But this is certainly due to the language of the Hebrews, for also a hebrew spoke as if his spirit was not himself.

That's one interpretation of the relationship of the Father/Son/Spirit, but many Christians hold a different interpretation(s).

I can't address your query for you, because I don't hold that particular interpretation.

Hi @janc , I haven't heard back from you here. I am getting the impression that you've made up your mind on things and just aim to persuade people to your pov. Honestly, that's not a type of thread I like to particpate in.

 

[janc]

Only that's not what the scripture says. The Word was there in the beginning. He didn't come into being. He was always the third person of the trinity and always the Son of God and always one with the Father. That's basic Christain orthodoxy and I think you are into heretic territory.

The word has no beginning, it is the expression of God's spirit, God spoke things out of his spirit and these were his words that created everything. That means, from God came his word and through the word everything was created.
In Psalm 33:6 it says: "Through the word of God all things were created, by the spirit of his mouth for he spoke and it was." If you now look at Genesis 1, you will see that every time before anything was created "and God spoke: (the Word)" is written. So the Word is God himself, because it is the expression of his thoughts. It is the same with man, everything that man says reflects his spirit. If he says bad things, he is bad, if he says good things, he is good, his mind is his word. Nobody knows what is in man except the spirit of man, and if man wants to show what he is then he speaks out his thoughts.
So one could translate John 1:1 in this way: "In the beginning was the Spirit of God..."
The Spirit of God then came to Mary and manifested itself in the flesh, God's Spirit therefore became flesh, and through this the Son of God came into the world.

 

[Truther]

The Bible clearly says that every human will sin someday:

There is no human who does not sin. (1 Kings 8:46)

But then how could the Messiah be sinless?

I would say that the spirit in the Messiah was not a human spirit but the spirit of God. The Spirit of God in the flesh, therefore John 1:1 and 14. But then one asks oneself the question, did the incarnation of the Spirit create another person separated from the father? Should one think that God has begotten a real son? That God has begotten a real son sounds illogical to me, since this would then be a second God, but if the Messiah is the Father, one would have to ask oneself why the Bible constantly separates the Son from the Father.

This is how Jesus(last Adam) succeeded to be sinless....

4 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

 

[farouk]

Scripture says "He did no sin"; "He knew no sin" ; "in Him is no sin'.

The wonder is that He was "made sin...that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him".

 

[101G]

The Bible clearly says that every human will sin someday:

There is no human who does not sin. (1 Kings 8:46)

But then how could the Messiah be sinless?

I would say that the spirit in the Messiah was not a human spirit but the spirit of God. The Spirit of God in the flesh, therefore John 1:1 and 14. But then one asks oneself the question, did the incarnation of the Spirit create another person separated from the father? Should one think that God has begotten a real son? That God has begotten a real son sounds illogical to me, since this would then be a second God, but if the Messiah is the Father, one would have to ask oneself why the Bible constantly separates the Son from the Father.

Addressing the OP only, haven't ead all of the posts. Excellent topic, and on time.

1. "the Messiah was not a human spirit but the spirit of God." see Phil 2:6, for the term "Form" there clearly states that it was God in the Flesh. and the Root of the word "Form", G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n. clearly tells us what the equal spirit was. 1. a portion, of the Spirit, equally SHARED "WITH". and another word for portion is "SHARE", which means JESUS the Son is the "Offspring", or the equal SHARE of God in flesh. and why is he called a man, because he God G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself while in that flesh. the very next verse clearly tell us so, Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" BINGO. that's why he is God in flesh but without powers. for he God as the "diversity"/Offspring G2758 κενόω kenoo .... HIMSELF while in that flesh. as I have been saying the Son of man is Not "BORN", (the spirit), only the Son of God, (the Flesh he came in is BORN). that's how he could be in flesh on earth talking to Nicodemus .... as a man and yet be in Heaven at the same time.... because he is the "EQUAL SHARE" of himself in Flesh. BINGO. this is all known by reading Phil 2:6 & 7 and looking up the definitions to these words there. it's all there just waiting to be discovered.

The Spirit of God in the flesh, therefore John 1:1 and 14. But then one asks oneself the question, did the incarnation of the Spirit create another person separated from the father? Should one think that God has begotten a real son? That God has begotten a real son sounds illogical to me, since this would then be a second God, but if the Messiah is the Father, one would have to ask oneself why the Bible constantly separates the Son from the Father.

you're on point, just see the above response. this is great, people are asking the RIGHT STUFF, oh I mean the RIFGT questions....


so clearly the term "Son" indicates GOD'S/JESUS own BODY on earth. and "Father" indicates GOD'S/JESUS own Spirit in heaven

so when Jesus, on earth in natural flesh say MY "Father" he is saying "MY SPIRIT" which is in Heaven. and JESUS while in Heaven say MY "Son" is saying "MY BODY" on Earth. again Good topic janc

PICJAG,

 

[Base12]

Not sure if Romans 8:3 has been posted yet...

Romans 8:3
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

The key word is 'likeness'. Not actual sinful flesh.

I love this verse...

John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am"

Jesus exists in the past and present at the same time. This is a very advanced concept that can be found in Quantum Physics.

 

[Renniks]

The word has no beginning, it is the expression of God's spirit, God spoke things out of his spirit and these were his words that created everything. That means, from God came his word and through the word everything was created.
In Psalm 33:6 it says: "Through the word of God all things were created, by the spirit of his mouth for he spoke and it was." If you now look at Genesis 1, you will see that every time before anything was created "and God spoke: (the Word)" is written. So the Word is God himself, because it is the expression of his thoughts. It is the same with man, everything that man says reflects his spirit. If he says bad things, he is bad, if he says good things, he is good, his mind is his word. Nobody knows what is in man except the spirit of man, and if man wants to show what he is then he speaks out his thoughts.
So one could translate John 1:1 in this way: "In the beginning was the Spirit of God..."
The Spirit of God then came to Mary and manifested itself in the flesh, God's Spirit therefore became flesh, and through this the Son of God came into the world.

So, can you just tell me clearly if you believe Jesus always existed, or are you trying to say that God was once less than three persons? Because that's how it sounds.
"So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:5, 24).

Obviously, Jesus was himself before creation, whatever we can take that to mean. He wasn't brought into existence by God's Spirit at his earthly birth.

 

[Enoch111]

The Messiah who is the Son of God did not exist before his incarnation, but the Spirit who is in him already existed.

As I said. Giving you the truth is hopeless. Could it be because of too much sunshine?

 

[janc]

So, can you just tell me clearly if you believe Jesus always existed, or are you trying to say that God was once less than three persons? Because that's how it sounds.
"So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:5, 24).

Obviously, Jesus was himself before creation, whatever we can take that to mean. He wasn't brought into existence by God's Spirit at his earthly birth.

When the Messiah said this, he was referring to his nature, for his glory is the same glory of the Father, they both have the same spirit and therefore the same nature.
But the Son of God did not exist until his incarnation, before that there was no Son of God and no Messiah, but the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God will come upon you, therefore the Holy One who will be born will be called the Son of God.

 

[janc]

As I said. Giving you the truth is hopeless. Could it be because of too much sunshine?

Are you wise?

 

[dev553344]

His flesh had a beginning (Romans 1:3, Isaiah 45:11).

Not if you believe his flesh was generated by the Holy Spirit Matthew 1:18, the Spirit of God is life itself Romans 8:2, God formed Adam from the dust of the earth and became a living being Genesis 2:7, but Jesus was from the Holy Spirit.

Edit: Hebrews 7:1-3 says it all perhaps.

 

[Renniks]

When the Messiah said this, he was referring to his nature, for his glory is the same glory of the Father, they both have the same spirit and therefore the same nature.
But the Son of God did not exist until his incarnation, before that there was no Son of God and no Messiah, but the Spirit of God.

That's not what it says. It says the Father loved him before creation. How could the Father love him if he didn't yet exist?

 

[janc]

That's not what it says. It says the Father loved him before creation. How could the Father love him if he didn't yet exist?

We should note that God is omniscient, so before anyone is even born he is already in God's mind, see:
(Jer 1:5) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you: I appointed you prophet to the nations.

Therefore it could be that God loved the Messiah in his thoughts.

 

[friend of]

I've always been told that if Jesus had any sense at all that he would be a blemished lamb and unfit to remove all of our sins

 

[Joseph77]

I've always been told that if Jesus had any sense at all that he would be a blemished lamb and unfit to remove all of our sins

Thus Jesus' Says: MY sheep HEAR MY VOICE.... and follow ME, and WILL NOT FOLLOW ANOTHER....

i.e. whoever was "they told me", or "they said" , or "always been told", is/are voices not to listen to,
and
everyone either repents of doing so if they come to Jesus, turn to God, away from sin,
or
they die in their corruption and sin and deception.

 

[justbyfaith]

No. The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God has been in the bosom of the Father for eternity.

See Luke 1:35.

It shows clearly that Jesus was begotten in the incarnation.

Which is not to say that He does not exist from everlasting to everlasting; since He also ascended to exist outside of time (Ephesians 4:10).