How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[justbyfaith]

You must believe before you would ever choose to believe (watered down repentance).

That is an oxymoron and redundancy.

 

[Dave L]

But you are trying to say by this, that grace comes before faith. However the clearer scripture on the issue (Romans 5:1-2) shows that faith comes before grace; because access to grace is given through faith.

“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:1–2) (KJV 1900)

 

[justbyfaith]

What I think you are not seeing is that when the Holy Spirit draws a person, He enables them to make a free will decision apart from outside influences: either for or against Christ.

 

[Dave L]

That is an oxymoron and redundancy.

If you save yourself through any form of obedience, you rob God of his glory and become the savior.

 

[Dave L]

What I think you are not seeing is that when the Holy Spirit draws a person, He enables them to make a free will decision apart from outside influences either for or against Christ.

It's not about making decisions. If God creates a new you through the power of the gospel, which Peter says he does, then you are going to do the things a new creature does. And part of that is to believe and repent.

 

[bbyrd009]

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22) (KJV 1900)

They did not give it to themselves performing self-righteous acts to earn salvation.

no, of course not, but there are actually other works than only "self-righteous" (or "missionary") ones too i guess, right

also maybe a good spot to point out that Taking a Knee, iow literally not doing a thing really, becomes a selfless act,
even suicidal, from an agent's pov certainly lol

 

[justbyfaith]

If you save yourself through any form of obedience, you rob God of his glory and become the savior.

Not through any obedience on my part, but through a decision to turn away from an attitude that amounts to disobedience.

 

[justbyfaith]

It's not about making decisions. If God creates a new you through the power of the gospel, which Peter says he does, then you are going to do the things a new creature does. And part of that is to believe and repent.

God will not regenerate you without your permission. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

 

[Dave L]

God will not regenerate you without your permission. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, Acts of the Apostles 3:19).

If that were the case, who would give him permission when they love sin more than life itself?

 

[Dave L]

Not through any obedience on my part, but through a decision to turn away from an attitude that amounts to disobedience.

= salvation by works.

 

[bbyrd009]

= salvation by works.

what a coincidence, huh, the very thing you will be judged for!

 

[Enoch111]

If people initiate their salvation they share in God's glory.

This shows how your thinking has been distorted by Reformed Theology.

There are TWO major, powerful, supernatural factors at work in drawing sinners to the Savior by initiating their salvation. One could even say FOUR major factors. But you seem to be oblivious, because Calvinism reverses the sequence of salvation:

1. The Gospel itself, called the Word of God, and called the seed of the New Birth: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

2. The Father

3. The Son

4. The Holy Ghost

So God must get all the glory, even though sinners must obey the Gospel. God does not do the obeying. Now read and study and meditate on this passage alone (Rom 16:25-27):

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: [obedience to the Gospel]

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[Dave L]

This shows how your thinking has been distorted by Reformed Theology.

There are TWO major, powerful, supernatural factors at work in drawing sinners to the Savior by initiating their salvation. One could even say FOUR major factors. But you seem to be oblivious, because Calvinism reverses the sequence of salvation:

1. The Gospel itself, called the Word of God, and called the seed of the New Birth: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

2. The Father

3. The Son

4. The Holy Ghost

So God must get all the glory, even though sinners must obey the Gospel. God does not do the obeying. Now read and study and meditate on this passage alone (Rom 16:25-27):

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: [obedience to the Gospel]

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

If you save yourself through obedience, your salvation is of works, not grace. And you rob God of his glory in salvation.

 

[OzSpen]

In the gospels, salvation is preached (Greek = announced) for all who believe. They never offer it. If they did, the gospel would become a law for the self righteous to keep in order to save themselves.

You refused to deal with the biblical evidence I provided against your position.

 

[Dave L]

You refused to deal with the biblical evidence I provided against your position.

Law is law and it's conditional. You turn the gospel into law and give the self-righteous the privilege of saving themselves, so to speak.

 

[OzSpen]

If you save yourself through obedience, your salvation is of works, not grace. And you rob God of his glory in salvation.

Dave,

God's giving all human beings the opportunity to accept the Gospel or reject is, is NOT salvation by works. God would never tell people to do that which breaks the law of non-contradiction.

What did Paul and Silas say to the Philippian jailer when he asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:30-31 NIV).

Their response to the request to be saved was a command: "[You] believe..."

God has drawn all people to salvation since Christ's crucifixion and provision of salvation. We know this because John 12:32 gives us Jesus' teachings on this subject: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself” (John 12:32 NIV).

Why do most not come?

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness" (Rom 1:18 NIV).

They choose to "suppress the truth by their wickedness". That's Bible!

Oz

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

God's giving all human beings the opportunity to accept the Gospel or reject is, is NOT salvation by works. God would never tell people to do that which breaks the law of non-contradiction.

What did Paul and Silas say to the Philippian jailer when he asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:30-31 NIV).

Their response to the request to be saved was a command: "[You] believe..."

God has drawn all people to salvation since Christ's crucifixion and provision of salvation. We know this because John 12:32 gives us Jesus' teachings on this subject: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself” (John 12:32 NIV).

Why do most not come?

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness" (Rom 1:18 NIV).

They choose to "suppress the truth by their wickedness". That's Bible!

Oz

How about the gazillions who never heard the gospel?

 

[justbyfaith]

If that were the case, who would give him permission when they love sin more than life itself?

They must be convicted and drawn by the Holy Spirit, which is not the same thing as regeneration.

= salvation by works.

Nope.

 

[Dave L]

They must be convicted and drawn by the Holy Spirit, which is not the same thing as regeneration.



Nope.

Conditional salvation = works.

 

[OzSpen]

Law is law and it's conditional. You turn the gospel into law and give the self-righteous the privilege of saving themselves, so to speak.

Dave,

Again, you are off and running with your own views. You have refused to answer my questions and comments from #194 & #236.

Your responses to me are red herrings that are designed to divert attention from the issue that you started with the OP - free will and the Gospel.

When you use red herrings, you refuse to deal with the subject matter I present, especially that which opposes your view that is akin to a Calvinistic view of predestination/election/salvation.

Oz