How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[justbyfaith]

How about the gazillions who never heard the gospel?

They are given three lights: the light of Creation (Romans 1); if they heed that light they are given light #2, the light of conscience (Romans 2); and if they heed the light of conscience, they will be shown the light of Christ (Romans 3). If they heed that light, they will be saved.

 

[Dave L]

They are given three lights: the light of Creation (Romans 1); if they obey that light they are given light #2, the light of conscience (Romans 2); and if they obey the light of conscience, they will be shown the light of Christ (Romans 3). If they obey that light, they will be saved.

= works apart from knowing Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Again, you are off and running with your own views. You have refused to answer my questions and comments from #194 & #236.

Your responses to me are red herrings that are designed to divert attention from the issue that you started with the OP - free will and the Gospel.

When you use red herrings, you refuse to deal with the subject matter I present, especially that which opposes your view that is akin to a Calvinistic view of predestination/election/salvation.

Oz

Works = works, no matter the gloss you try to add.

 

[justbyfaith]

Conditional salvation = works.

Nope.

 

[justbyfaith]

= works apart from knowing Jesus.

Nope. Also, I edited post #241.

 

[Dave L]

Nope.

Conditional salvation demands a self-righteous response from the hearer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Dave,

Again, you are off and running with your own views. You have refused to answer my questions and comments from #194 & #236.

Your responses to me are red herrings that are designed to divert attention from the issue that you started with the OP - free will and the Gospel.

When you use red herrings, you refuse to deal with the subject matter I present, especially that which opposes your view that is akin to a Calvinistic view of predestination/election/salvation.

Oz

post #203:

link:
How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

 

[justbyfaith]

Conditional salvation demands a self-righteous response from the hearer.

It requires a humble response from a softened heart (Psalms 34:18, Psalms 51:17, Isaiah 57:15, Isaiah 66:2), which is a work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[OzSpen]

How about the gazillions who never heard the gospel?

Dave,

Again you give a red herring and don't deal with the free will Scriptures I've presented.

As for the "gazillions who never heard the gospel", haven't you read your Bible carefully?

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.i]">[i] 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles (Rom 1:18-23 NLT).​

The gazillions of non-believers will have NO EXCUSE when they stand before God. God gave them every opportunity to know Him but "they wouldn't worship him as God". If they wouldn't, they chose not to.

Or, do you say that God made these gazillions of non-believers so that they will never be able to respond to Him?

That's not God's view. When they stand before Him at death, they will be WITHOUT EXCUSE.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Works = works, no matter the gloss you try to add.

Another red herring that doesn't address what I wrote. There is no 'gloss' with me. There is red herring avoidance by you.

 

[OzSpen]

Conditional salvation demands a self-righteous response from the hearer.

Dave,

Free will to respond to God is not conditional salvation. It is the free will God has given to all people since the time of Adam & Eve and their choice to eat of the tree. This free will of alternate choice enables them to respond positively or negatively to God's offer of salvation (Titus 2:11; Jn 12:32; Jn 3:16).

14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord....

22 Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.” “Yes, we are witnesses,” they replied" (Joshua 24:14-15, 22 NIV).​

There is not a taint of self-righteousness here. There is every opportunity to say, 'Thank you, Lord, for giving all human beings - including me - the opportunity to accept or reject salvation'.

Forced salvation is a misnomer to God's grace.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

= works apart from knowing Jesus.

Dave,

justbyfaith gave you Scriptures to demonstrate that this is not by works but according to the teaching of Romans.

What do you do? You have such a fixation with the Calvinistic view of election/predestination that you are not open to Scriptures that contradict that view.

Could I label these actions as being stubborn and not open to consider other Scriptures?

Oz

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

justbyfaith gave you Scriptures to demonstrate that this is not by works but according to the teaching of Romans.

What do you do? You have such a fixation with the Calvinistic view of election/predestination that you are not open to Scriptures that contradict that view.

Could I label these actions as being stubborn and not open to consider other Scriptures?

Oz

What you are missing is this. We are all spiritually dead. God creates life in us when we hear the gospel. Just as he spoke the universe into existence. You come to life and naturally believe what you are hearing. The gospel announces whoever believes has (present active tense) eternal life.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Free will to respond to God is not conditional salvation. It is the free will God has given to all people since the time of Adam & Eve and their choice to eat of the tree. This free will of alternate choice enables them to respond positively or negatively to God's offer of salvation (Titus 2:11; Jn 12:32; Jn 3:16).

14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord....

22 Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.” “Yes, we are witnesses,” they replied" (Joshua 24:14-15, 22 NIV).​

There is not a taint of self-righteousness here. There is every opportunity to say, 'Thank you, Lord, for giving all human beings - including me - the opportunity to accept or reject salvation'.

Forced salvation is a misnomer to God's grace.

Oz

Did Lazarus want to come out of the tomb when Jesus raised him from the dead? Aren't we the same when Jesus raises us from the dead speaking life into us through the gospel.

 

[Dave L]

Another red herring that doesn't address what I wrote. There is no 'gloss' with me. There is red herring avoidance by you.

Anything based on meeting conditions is a law or contract. Salvation is a free gift given to those who cannot believe and would never want to agree to the terms of a contract. God creates new life in them through the spoken word and from that point on they believe and want to live a holy life.

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Again you give a red herring and don't deal with the free will Scriptures I've presented.

As for the "gazillions who never heard the gospel", haven't you read your Bible carefully?

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.i]">[i] 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles (Rom 1:18-23 NLT).​

The gazillions of non-believers will have NO EXCUSE when they stand before God. God gave them every opportunity to know Him but "they wouldn't worship him as God". If they wouldn't, they chose not to.

Or, do you say that God made these gazillions of non-believers so that they will never be able to respond to Him?

That's not God's view. When they stand before Him at death, they will be WITHOUT EXCUSE.

Oz

They all stand condemned by the light they have, but none are saved.

 

[Dave L]

It requires a humble response from a softened heart (Psalms 34:18, Psalms 51:17, Isaiah 57:15, Isaiah 66:2), which is a work of the Holy Spirit.

But you think this "humble heart" saves itself when it agrees? Hint: the humble heart IS salvation and it wants to repent and live a holy life.

 

[Dave L]

Paul also taught: ' For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.' (Titus 2:11 NIV).

Jesus' teaching harmonises with that of Paul: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 NIV).

Romans 9 cannot be interpreted in isolation from these Scriptures.

So free will is a necessary dimension of responding to the offer of salvation.

Dave,

God's giving all human beings the opportunity to accept the Gospel or reject is, is NOT salvation by works. God would never tell people to do that which breaks the law of non-contradiction.

What did Paul and Silas say to the Philippian jailer when he asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:30-31 NIV).

Their response to the request to be saved was a command: "[You] believe..."

God has drawn all people to salvation since Christ's crucifixion and provision of salvation. We know this because John 12:32 gives us Jesus' teachings on this subject: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself” (John 12:32 NIV).

Why do most not come?

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness" (Rom 1:18 NIV).

They choose to "suppress the truth by their wickedness". That's Bible!

Oz

Dave,

Again, you are off and running with your own views. You have refused to answer my questions and comments from #194 & #236.

Your responses to me are red herrings that are designed to divert attention from the issue that you started with the OP - free will and the Gospel.

When you use red herrings, you refuse to deal with the subject matter I present, especially that which opposes your view that is akin to a Calvinistic view of predestination/election/salvation.

Oz

Again, I answered all of your posts proving that free will turns the gospel into law. If people are as sinful as scripture makes them out to be, they love sin more than God. Find something in the flesh that doesn't love sin more:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now find something in the Spirit that would love God more than sin and want to believe and repent:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19–23) (KJV 1900)

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, I answered all of your posts proving that free will turns the gospel into law. If people are as sinful as scripture makes them out to be, they love sin more than God. Find something in the flesh that doesn't love sin more:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now find something in the Spirit that would love God more than sin and want to believe and repent:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19–23) (KJV 1900)

See Jeremiah 15:19...we are called to take the precious from the vile.

 

[bbyrd009]

Again, I answered all of your posts proving that free will turns the gospel into law.

ya, and that's a totally healthy pov to have

do you really think you've proven anything, Dave?