How Important Truth?

[charity]

Ecclesiastes is frequently quoted by those who do not wish to take their doctrine from the New Testament. Why don't you stick with what is taught about the afterlife by Christ and the apostles?

The dead certainly know much according to Christ, but Ecclesiastes is written from the viewpoint of the natural man.

Hello @Enoch111,

Perhaps you would give me examples of what the Lord and the apostles had to say on the subject, that you feel I should take note of.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Enoch111]

Hello @Enoch111, Perhaps you would give me examples of what the Lord and the apostles had to say on the subject, that you feel I should take note of.

Why don't we focus on the words of Christ -- the revelation of the afterlife by Christ prior to His resurrection -- as given in Luke 16:19-31?

1. THE GOOD THINGS OF LIFE ON EARTH FOR A CERTAIN RICH MAN
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

2. THE EVIL THINGS OF LIFE ON EARTH FOR A CERTAIN BEGGAR LAZARUS
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

3. LAZARUS DIED AND WAS TAKEN TO ABRAHAM'S BOSOM IN SHEOL/HADES
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:...

4. THE RICH MAN DIED AND WENT TO SHEOL/HADES TO SUFFER SEPARATELY
...the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell [SHEOL/HADES] he lift up his eyes, being in torments,...

5. ABRAHAM WAS WITH THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD INCLUDING LAZARUS
...and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

6. THE RICH MAN COULD COMMUNICATE WITH HIM ACROSS A CHASM
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;...

7. HADES IS A PLACE OF TORMENT, THEREFORE THE DEAD EXPERIENCE IT
...for I am tormented in this flame. [the unrighteous dead know this] 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. [the righteous dead know this]

8. A HUGE CHASM SEPARATING THE RIGHTEOUS FROM THE UNRIGHTEOUS
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

9. THE RICH MAN PLEADS FOR THE SALVATION OF HIS BROTHERS
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

10. SALVATION IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS PRESENTED FOR THE LIVING
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

11. THE RICH MAN CONTINUES TO PLEAD
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

12. FAILURE TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL IN BOTH TESTAMENTS MEANS DAMNATION
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Christ was referring to Himself when He said "though one rose from the dead". And Christ Himself -- after His crucifixion -- went to Sheol/Hades (in the heart of the earth) for three days and three nights, following which He was resurrected. Indeed He prophesied about this, comparing Himself to Jonah (Jonah's experience being a type of the experience of Christ).

For those who would seek to dismiss the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus as a "parable" the presence of Christ in Hades is sufficient refutation, and His presence there was prophesied by David about 1,000 years before it happened

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;[ שְׁאֹ֑ול = SHEOL] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,[ᾄδην = HADEN = HADES] neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)

 

[charity]

Hello @Enoch111,

I have already addressed the rich man and Lazarus in a previously post, and to repeat it again is futile.
Hell is the grave, the place of the dead. our Lord was quickened into life and rose from the grave.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Enoch111]

I have already addressed the rich man and Lazarus in a previously post, and to repeat it again is futile.
Hell is the grave, the place of the dead. our Lord was quickened into life and rose from the grave.

Obviously your commitment to the truth is half-baked. Your previous post was totally false and you should have accepted the truth about the rich man and Lazarus. But it is clear that even the revelation of Jesus Christ about the afterlife means nothing to you.

 

[bbyrd009]

Lazarus = Eleazer,
The amazing name Lazarus: meaning and etymology
"For a possible connection between the two men named Lazarus, and a possible explanation of what this unified Lazarus might have represented, see our article on the name Annas."

I have already addressed the rich man and Lazarus in a previously post, and to repeat it again is futile.

and i'm guessing he totally ignored it the first time too right?
can one even practically have a convo with a Strong Man?
There are two "Lazarus" in the Bible fwiw​

 

[Enoch111]

Lazarus = Eleazer,

Eleazar means *God has helped*. And God did help Lazarus by sending angels to convey him to Abraham's Bosom in Hades. And yet the naysayers deny that this narrative is a description of the afterlife, and seek to dismiss it as a parable. But a parable to illustrate WHAT?

 

[bbyrd009]

Eleazar means *God has helped*. And God did help Lazarus by sending angels to convey him to Abraham's Bosom in Hades. And yet the naysayers deny that this narrative is a description of the afterlife, and seek to dismiss it as a parable. But a parable to illustrate WHAT?

"if they won't listen to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead"
imo

 

[bbyrd009]

"if they won't listen to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead"
imo

intro the only other "Lazarus" in the Bible,
John 11:1 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany ...

..... Now a man named Lazarus was sick
:2(This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.)
John 12:1 Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany ...

Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus
lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.

Here a dinner was given in Jesus' honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him.

Ezra 7:5 the son of Abishua, the son of Phinehas, the son of ...

... who was the son of Abishua, who was the son of Phinehas, who was the son
of Eleazer, who was the son of Aaron (the first priest)

and then you can start putting the pieces together, note how Lazarus was "raised," etc

 

[Willie T]

Eleazar means *God has helped*. And God did help Lazarus by sending angels to convey him to Abraham's Bosom in Hades. And yet the naysayers deny that this narrative is a description of the afterlife, and seek to dismiss it as a parable. But a parable to illustrate WHAT?

Quite simply that the Jews were no longer going to be able to rely upon their heritage to gain Salvation. In this parable, the privileged Jew did not gain a place at Abraham's bosom as the under-privileged non-Jew, Lazarus, did. The Jew even asked that his brothers (fellow Jews) be warned that they couldn't depend upon just "being Jewish." He was told, "No", they have all the Scriptures and prophets who have already warned them to expect the Messiah.... but they never believed any of that.

Remember, it is never shown that either man "deserved" the afterlife position they each ended up with, either by good deeds or by bad.

 

[Enoch111]

Remember, it is never shown that either man "deserved" the afterlife position they each ended up with, either by good deeds or by bad.

Since Abraham (who was deemed righteous by God because of his faith, and is the *father* of all who are justified by grace through faith) was in Hades ,we must believe that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom because he too trusted in God (despite his wretched condition).

At the same time since the rich man was in torment, he was deemed unrighteous, and he was also unrighteous in how he treated Lazarus (and no doubt others), therefore he deserved his just punishment. Hell is indeed punishment and that is what Scripture reveals.

 

[brakelite]

Since Abraham (who was deemed righteous by God because of his faith, and is the *father* of all who are justified by grace through faith) was in Hades ,we must believe that Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom because he too trusted in God (despite his wretched condition).

At the same time since the rich man was in torment, he was deemed unrighteous, and he was also unrighteous in how he treated Lazarus (and no doubt others), therefore he deserved his just punishment. Hell is indeed punishment and that is what Scripture reveals.

I know of no "annihilationist" who denies that there is a period of time in which the sinner suffers. Jesus said the worst of sinners shall suffer many stripes, the least serious sinner, fewer stripes. No one denies that God is just and fair. Which is one ground I have for my unbelief in eternal torment. Let us take a specific hypothetical case for example.
Person #1. Female, 17 years old. Lived in ancient Britain circa 450AD, raised among Picts, whose village was raided by Anglo-Saxons and was killed. Had heard the gospel by an itinerant preacher of the time, a certain Patrick, but put it aside for another day. Therefore never confessed a faith in Christ, never repented of her sins, and according to traditional Christianity, went to hell where she now continues to suffer torment for the 17 years of life as a normal kid in an environment infused by a culture only then beginning to come to terms with the announcement of a way of life that could deliver them from tribal idolatry and ancient errors.
Person #2. Raised in the 21st century. Male, aged 58 yo. Has had access and exposure to the Christian faith all his life. Parents devout Christians, but after 25 years of regular church going rejected the faith of his fathers, and lived a life of selfish ambition and greed. Gets into politics and leads his nation to an invasion of neighbours, whereby millions are killed, imprisoned, tortured. He personally approves, participates in, and encourages same. His second in charge cuts his throat as he sleeps at night, he goes to hell.

Ostensibly, the 17 year old has now suffered for 1600 years, and looks forward to the same torment continuing for another, well, it is never going to stop according to you. Yet the 58yo political assassin and murderer who had every advantage and understanding but rejected God for a life of mayhem and destruction, is actually better off is he not? But then when we look ahead into eternal future, where time is non-existent and these two suffering more at the hands of God in a way that the political butcher couldn't possibly have dared dream of, is called justice? Anyone would shrink back in horror at any suggestion that a nations leader such as person #2 could be admired for his wisdom and mercy in relation to the way he dealt with his enemies, yet we are to praise God for the way He supposedly deals with His?

 

[OzSpen]

Any thought that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal is contrary to scripture and common sense. The compartmentalising of "hell" into different provinces depending on their ultimate fate is no where to be found in scripture.

Luke 16 contradicts your view.

Ever heard of the Intermediate State for both believers and unbelievers after death?

 

[OzSpen]

Using your logic Oz, Abraham must have been in hades as well to have Lazarus in his bosom.....see how it doesn't stack up?

It stacks up perfectly if you understand the Intermediate State after death for believers and non-believers.

 

[OzSpen]

Hello @OzSpen,

I have no reason to doubt that you are a 'seeker of truth', Oz. I also have no reason to 'avoid' any passage from Scripture you may present to me.
You referred to Luke 16, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, a story told by the Lord Jesus Christ to illustrate the hypocrisy of the Pharisees' doctrine, to whom He spoke. The story shows clearly that their teaching denied the testimony of Scripture concerning the state of the dead, examples of which I have quoted in my previous post to @Enoch111 (#218]. (Eccl. 9:5; Psalm 146:4; Psalm 104:29-30; Eccl. 9:10). They believed also that the dead could communicate with the living, and experience pain and anguish, which is a denial of Scripture too. They also avoided helping the poor by saying that they would receive their reward in the next life, which our Lord exposes in this story.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus has been used as a proof text concerning the state of the dead by traditionalists, but it was never intended for that purpose by the Lord Jesus Christ.

May His Name be Praised!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity,

I find it interesting, even paradoxical, that you quoted Eccl 9:5 in support of your view, but you did not mention Eccl 12:7 (ERV), which states:

"Your body came from the earth.
And when you die, it will return to the earth.
But your spirit came from God,
and when you die, it will return to him".

What did Jesus teach in John 11:17-26 (ESV)?

According to John 11:24-26, to live and believe is followed by never dying. In the event of the raising of Lazarus, this is the narrative:

24 Martha said to him [Jesus], “I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus was crystal clear that everyone who lives and believes in Him shall never ever die ultimately. Death for the believer does not interrupt this eternal life that began at the point of commitment to Christ while on earth.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hello @Enoch111,

Hell is the grave, the place of the dead.

charity,

Why did the KJV translate 3 Greek words as 'hell', i.e. hades, gehenna and tartarus? Do all of these words refer to 'the grave' (your view)?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Of the 54 times "hell" is translated in scripture,
IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
31 times from "Sheol," which means the grave."

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning.", and in context a literal place outside of Jerusalem.
1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 TIMES TOTAL

brakelite,

For the NT, please provide the etymology of hades, gehenna and tartarus to demonstrate the truth of their meaning.

Otherwise, they are your opinions.

Oz

 

[quietthinker]

It stacks up perfectly if you understand the Intermediate State after death for believers and non-believers.

Wow, Intermediate State after death!! Now we're really spinning out on inventions.

 

[charity]

charity,

I find it interesting, even paradoxical, that you quoted Eccl 9:5 in support of your view, but you did not mention Eccl 12:7 (ERV), which states:

"Your body came from the earth.
And when you die, it will return to the earth.
But your spirit came from God,
and when you die, it will return to him".

What did Jesus teach in John 11:17-26 (ESV)?

According to John 11:24-26, to live and believe is followed by never dying. In the event of the raising of Lazarus, this is the narrative:

24 Martha said to him [Jesus], “I know that he [Lazarus] will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus was crystal clear that everyone who lives and believes in Him shall never ever die ultimately. Death for the believer does not interrupt this eternal life that began at the point of commitment to Christ while on earth.

Oz

'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.'
(Ecc 12:7)

Hello there, @OzSpen,

Thank you for this further response.

The spirit (or 'breath of life') will indeed return to God Who gave it.
Those who die, 'in the Lord,' are spoken of in Scripture as being, 'asleep in Christ' (1 Cor.15:17-20); because in God's eyes they are not dead, but living (Matthew 22:32); awaiting resurrection. Our 'life' is at this very present time, 'hid with Christ in God' (Colossians 3:1-4).

'When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:4)

* This should not be a bone of contention between you and I Oz, let's just praise God together, in the knowledge that only He knows all things, and that His will, will be done, to the glory of His Name, and of His wondrous grace.

With love,
in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

charity,

Why did the KJV translate 3 Greek words as 'hell', i.e. hades, gehenna and tartarus? Do all of these words refer to 'the grave' (your view)?

Oz

Hello again, @OzSpen,

I believe the reason why the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus are translated by the middle English word, 'Hell', is because of it's core meaning, which is, 'to hide away'. The dead are hidden away in the grave; covered up, out of the sight of man, so that the putrefying action which takes place, takes place away from sight, away from any possibility of contamination.

* If you look, by means of a concordance, at the words so translated:-

Sheol: H7585 = 'The world of the dead' also translated, grave, hell & pit.
Hades: G86 = 'the world of the dead' - translated, grave & hell.
Gehenna: G1067 = 'unseen' = translated, grave & hell.
Tartaroo: G5020 = translated, hell.

(* This may not be a complete list, as I have not got time at the moment to look it up thoroughly)

* When I did a study on this, I looked at each word, and traced through each verse where it was used, laying on one side for further consideration those verses which I did not understand, or needed further thought. When I had the overall testimony concerning the usage to which the Holy Spirit had given to each, I then referred back to those passages needing further thought, until I could arrive at a conclusion.

* I deliberately shut out of my mind anything I had previously learned concerning this subject, taught by tradition, and simply considered each usage in the light of the core meaning of the word, 'Hell' ('to hide away'), and the use to which the Holy Spirit had applied it. By so doing I took myself out of the hands of man's understanding, and rested on what was written.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[OzSpen]

Wow, Intermediate State after death!! Now we're really spinning out on inventions.

qt,

Please tell me why?

What is the Intermediate State? Those 2 words are not in the Bible (neither is the word Trinity or Bible) but they address biblical teaching on the location of believers and unbelievers after death and until the resurrection at Jesus' second coming.

See: The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

Oz