How Important Truth?

[OzSpen]

Hello again, @OzSpen,

I believe the reason why the words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus are translated by the middle English word, 'Hell', is because of it's core meaning, which is, 'to hide away'. The dead are hidden away in the grave; covered up, out of the sight of man, so that the putrefying action which takes place, takes place away from sight, away from any possibility of contamination.

* If you look, by means of a concordance, at the words so translated:-

Sheol: H7585 = 'The world of the dead' also translated, grave, hell & pit.
Hades: G86 = 'the world of the dead' - translated, grave & hell.
Gehenna: G1067 = 'unseen' = translated, grave & hell.
Tartaroo: G5020 = translated, hell.

(* This may not be a complete list, as I have not got time at the moment to look it up thoroughly)

* When I did a study on this, I looked at each word, and traced through each verse where it was used, laying on one side for further consideration those verses which I did not understand, or needed further thought. When I had the overall testimony concerning the usage to which the Holy Spirit had given to each, I then referred back to those passages needing further thought, until I could arrive at a conclusion.

* I deliberately shut out of my mind anything I had previously learned concerning this subject, taught by tradition, and simply considered each usage in the light of the core meaning of the word, 'Hell' ('to hide away'), and the use to which the Holy Spirit had applied it. By so doing I took myself out of the hands of man's understanding, and rested on what was written.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity,

Do you read and know the grammar of NT Greek so that you are able to use the Greek lexicons and The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel & Friedrich ed.) so you are able to discern the meaning of hades, gehenna, and tartarus from the original language?

The explanations in your short statements about these words are not accurate when compared with the Greek lexicons and word studies.

I read and have taught NT Greek.

Oz

 

[quietthinker]

qt,

Please tell me why?

What is the Intermediate State? Those 2 words are not in the Bible (neither is the word Trinity or Bible) but they address biblical teaching on the location of believers and unbelievers after death and until the resurrection at Jesus' second coming.

See: The Intermediate State for believers and unbelievers: Where do they go at death?

Oz

Oz, the whole structure is built on the erroneous view of the immortality of the soul. The deck of cards tumbles when this supposed support pillar is removed.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, the whole structure is built on the erroneous view of the immortality of the soul. The deck of cards tumbles when this supposed support pillar is removed.

qt,

You provide no biblical evidence to support your view.

But you reject immortality of human souls. Contrary to your view that the cards tumble, instead the tower of Scripture stands strong in favour of immortality of the soul.

There is only one Person who is truly immortal – God Himself, as stated in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion.”

Therefore, only God is immortal in the sense that He is the Owner and Originator of human life and he Himself has always existed and his life will never, ever end.

HOWEVER,

a human being's immortality of the soul is in a derived sense and applies to all people, believers and unbelievers.

Second Timothy 1:10 (ESV) speaks of God’s purpose and grace “which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

I have found that many people who object to the immortality of the soul are those who reject eternal punishment in hell (Hades and then Gehenna) for unbelievers.

Oz

 

[quietthinker]

qt,

You provide no biblical evidence to support your view.

But you reject immortality of human souls. Contrary to your view that the cards tumble, instead the tower of Scripture stands strong in favour of immortality of the soul.

There is only one Person who is truly immortal – God Himself, as stated in 1 Tim. 6:15-16 (ESV), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion.”

Therefore, only God is immortal in the sense that He is the Owner and Originator of human life and he Himself has always existed and his life will never, ever end.

HOWEVER,

a human being's immortality of the soul is in a derived sense and applies to all people, believers and unbelievers.

Second Timothy 1:10 (ESV) speaks of God’s purpose and grace “which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

I have found that many people who object to the immortality of the soul are those who reject eternal punishment in hell (Hades and then Gehenna) for unbelievers.

Oz

You have it right in that i have quoted no scripture Oz, the reason being that I guess you would ignore it anyway.

Using 1 Tim. 6:15-16 to justify the immortality of the soul is using God's word to underpin a falsehood by taking it out of its intended meaning. If you are not aware of it, that is taking the Lord's name in vain.

Using your own logic to underpin your logic, quoting you ie, 'a human being's immortality of the soul is in a derived sense and applies to all people, believers and unbelievers.' It doesn't stack up!

In order for your trick to work you must reinterpret the meaning of the word Death and for that matter the meaning of the word Life.
It seems to me that these primary, fundamental, foundational meanings are not understood.

 

[OzSpen]

You have it right in that i have quoted no scripture Oz, the reason being that I guess you would ignore it anyway.

Using 1 Tim. 6:15-16 to justify the immortality of the soul is using God's word to underpin a falsehood by taking it out of its intended meaning. If you are not aware of it, that is taking the Lord's name in vain.

Using your own logic to underpin your logic, quoting you ie, 'a human being's immortality of the soul is in a derived sense and applies to all people, believers and unbelievers.' It doesn't stack up!

In order for your trick to work you must reinterpret the meaning of the word Death and for that matter the meaning of the word Life.
It seems to me that these primary, fundamental, foundational meanings are not understood.

qt,

Your statements are:

1. 'the reason being that I guess you would ignore it anyway', an argument from silence, which is erroneous reasoning. Yours is a false statement about my beliefs.
2. 'Using 1 Tim. 6:15-16 to justify the immortality of the soul is using God's word to underpin a falsehood by taking it out of its intended meaning'. That's a false view. I could have given other references to the continuity of conscious life after physical death, i.e. immortality of the soul. Are you open to consider these verses and exposition? Do you support JW, Christadelphian or SDA doctrines that oppose immortality of the soul?
3. 'If you are not aware of it, that is taking the Lord's name in vain'. That's a false charge against me.
4. 'It doesn't stack up!' Again that's your opinion. You gave no supporting evidence.
5. 'In order for your trick to work'. That's a straw man fallacy and a false allegation.
6. 'you must reinterpret the meaning of the word Death and for that matter the meaning of the word Life.' False again! Could you be imposing your understanding of the meaning of 'death' and 'life' on what I wrote?
   
7. 'It seems to me that these primary, fundamental, foundational meanings are not understood'. They are well understood by me after many, many years as a student of Scripture, but my conclusions don't agree with yours, so you accuse me of not understanding basic meanings - to your satisfaction.
8. What meanings of death and life do I not understand, based on an exegesis of Scripture?

Oz

P.S. Are you flooded in your part of Far North Qld?

 

[quietthinker]

What meanings of death and life do I not understand, based on an exegesis of Scripture?

Death, Oz, is the cessation of life. You know, finish, destroyed, nothing, darkness...the complete opposite to God's reality.
Life is the ongoing, vibrant, expanding, never-ending of light, love and joy.

God's warning, 'You shall surely die' if his command was transgressed is unambiguous.
The promise of eternal life is in contrast to eternal death.

One might illustrate these two phenomena with a V. The wide end continuing on infinitum becoming greater in every aspect. The narrowing end shrinking, imploding, self destroying until it destructs and disappears into oblivion.

What we are physically experiencing now as life is a mere existence. One can hardly call it life in the true sense of the word.

P.S. No flooding where I am. All good here.

 

[OzSpen]

Death, Oz, is the cessation of life. You know, finish, destroyed, nothing, darkness...the complete opposite to God's reality.
Life is the ongoing, vibrant, expanding, never-ending of light, love and joy.

God's warning, 'You shall surely die' if his command was transgressed is unambiguous.
The promise of eternal life is in contrast to eternal death.

One might illustrate these two phenomena with a V. The wide end continuing on infinitum becoming greater in every aspect. The narrowing end shrinking, imploding, self destroying until it destructs and disappears into oblivion.

What we are physically experiencing now as life is a mere existence. One can hardly call it life in the true sense of the word.

P.S. No flooding where I am. All good here.

qt,

According to Gen 2:15-17 (CSB),

15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
​

Adam and Eve did not experience physical death as you've defined: "Death, Oz, is the cessation of life. You know, finish, destroyed, nothing, darkness...the complete opposite to God's reality." They certainly did not die physically. Death cannot mean what you've stated.

They continued to live physically. There is another meaning in Gen 2:15-17 (CSB) to 'death'. What is it?

What will believers experience one minute after their last breath and the body organs have shut down?

We know their life has not been destroyed, annihilated, as you say, because of what happened at Jesus' transfiguration:

After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and his brother John and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was transfigured in front of them, and his face shone like the sun; his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it’s good for us to be here. I will set up three shelters here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” (Matt 17:1-4 CSB).​

Moses and Elijah had died hundreds of years before Jesus' transfiguration but they were alive and well at that time and not as you have described - 'the cessation of life. You know, finish, destroyed, nothing, darkness...the complete opposite to God's reality'.

According to Matt 17, believers are very much alive and not destroyed after physical death.

Oz

 

[quietthinker]

qt,

According to Gen 2:15-17 (CSB),

15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”
​

Adam and Eve did not experience physical death as you've defined: "Death, Oz, is the cessation of life. You know, finish, destroyed, nothing, darkness...the complete opposite to God's reality." They certainly did not die physically. Death cannot mean what you've stated.

They continued to live physically. There is another meaning in Gen 2:15-17 (CSB) to 'death'. What is it?

What will believers experience one minute after their last breath and the body organs have shut down?

We know their life has not been destroyed, annihilated, as you say, because of what happened at Jesus' transfiguration:

After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and his brother John and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 He was transfigured in front of them, and his face shone like the sun; his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it’s good for us to be here. I will set up three shelters here: one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” (Matt 17:1-4 CSB).​

Moses and Elijah had died hundreds of years before Jesus' transfiguration but they were alive and well at that time and not as you have described - 'the cessation of life. You know, finish, destroyed, nothing, darkness...the complete opposite to God's reality'.

According to Matt 17, believers are very much alive and not destroyed after physical death.

Oz

Your understanding and logic is a muddled mess Oz....You have drawn conclusions from wherever and are now trying to force them into scripture
If you understood God's words 'you shall surely die' you would realise that it is saying dying you will die. As for your other proposals, it falls into the category of muddled.....and all to justify Satans lie 'you shall not surely die'

 

[Preacher4Truth]

John 17:17. Proverbs 23:23.

 

[OzSpen]

Your understanding and logic is a muddled mess Oz....You have drawn conclusions from wherever and are now trying to force them into scripture
If you understood God's words 'you shall surely die' you would realise that it is saying dying you will die. As for your other proposals, it falls into the category of muddled.....and all to justify Satans lie 'you shall not surely die'

You have not answered my post but given your presuppositions.

 

[quietthinker]

Moses was resurrected and Elijah translated. They are also representatives, ie of 1, those who have died awaiting the resurrection of life and 2, those who are living and and translated not seeing death when Jesus returns. They are not indicators that the dead are alive anywhere. Don't you get that dead is dead. Do you really believe what the serpent told Eve 'you shall not surely die'?
The idea that one does not die is the basis for every pagan belief system and it has crept into Christian circles. Do Christians need to be clobbered with the proverbial 4x2 to understand that when God says 'you shall surely die' that he means what he says?

To fabricate some other idea on death (to introduce pagan thought lines) is nothing short of muddled and what can one answer to that?