Soverign Grace
Well-Known Member
Thanks. God only just started opening Revelations up to me so I'm not well-read about it yet. I used to listen to it on tape, but never went to a bible study where it was taught.
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Soverign Grace
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Yes I guess the interpretations vary among denominations. I'm on the fence about Israel. I know many are looking to what happens there but I read that the illuminati set Israel up. I met a guy at a store who moved here from Israel and I told him it must have been good to live in Christ's birthplace. He uttered a string of curses and told me it's all fake, that all the visits to Israel by people are all about the money. He's the only Israeli I ever met but he wasn't moral.
If Israel was not of God the world and the devil wouldnt have spent so much money and time trying to wipe out Israel and the Jews. If the world destroyed Israel, than God would be a liar, and Christianity would be a lie. It all has to do with the Fig tree, in the bible, it has bloomed.
Soverign Grace
Well-Known Member
I came across this resource I thought I'd share. It describes how I feel - that the church on a whole has lost its authority. I also talks about a resurgence of RC.
Why This Ministry?
Why This Ministry?
Soverign Grace
Well-Known Member
I don't know enough about it, it was something I read when I was researching the NWO.
OzSpen
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SG,
I'm left to conclude it's not the same spirit/Spirit living in all???
However, a better understanding for me is that I have the Holy Spirit in me to prompt and guide me but He doesn't do the exegesis for me. I have to do that, with my understanding of the original languages.
My experience with these 'spiritual' people who turn to the Spirit within is that they don't think very highly of evangelicals like me who spend a lot of time with the NT original languages, endeavouring to understand the Bible.
Oz
OzSpen
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charity,
That's not so according to what happened after death for the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. It was most definitely consciousness for both after death in two compartments of Hades - one for the blessed and the other for the unbelievers in torment.
Are you promoting soul sleep at death?
Oz
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OzSpen
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brakelite,
For the rich man and Lazarus in Lk 16, both were in Hades but separate compartments separated from each other.
Lazarus was 'comforted here' in his section of Hades (v. 25).
The rich man experienced 'great pain.... I am suffering in this fire' (v. 23, 24).
They were in what is known as the Intermediate State and were conscious - not experiencing soul sleep.
Oz
Of the 54 times "hell" is translated in scripture,
IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
31 times from "Sheol," which means the grave."
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning.", and in context a literal place outside of Jerusalem.
1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 TIMES TOTAL
Not a lot of support there for "eternal torment". The concept that there are departments in hell wherein people go to wait until...well, whatever...is it not based on that one word, hades, originating from Greek mythology upon which Jewish traditions were also based and that Jesus used their own false tradition as a parable, not to teach on the state of the dead, but a lesson that having riches not being a criteria for heaven, unless yoyu are willing to share those riches with those who needed help...a lesson in other words also in sharing the gospel? The Pharisees saw riches, as did the disciples, as evidence for God's blessings, and poverty, as evidence for God's curse. Yet Israel, throughout their existence, refused to share their blessings with anyone else, even to the point of devising laws to shut Gentiles out, and building fences around Jews to keep them in. Jesus was correcting their deluded mindset using a myth as the basis. If I were to come to you and say, "Did you hear about the story concerning the drop-bear that went walk-about in Wonderland with Alice", you know I would be telling a tale...not describing a literal event or place. Even though one of the characters may have a real name, and their activity somewhat literal. It was the same for the Jews. When Jesus used the word Hades, a place from Greek mythology ruled by Pluto the god of the underworld, they would have known Jesus was telling them a parable. Jesus did not believe in Greek mythology.
Can you explain to me how dead man, who is meant to be spirit having no body because the body has returned to dust, eyes to hear, has ears to hear, a mouth to speak, a tongue to taste, a stomach to process, and a mind to think?
IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
31 times from "Sheol," which means the grave."
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning.", and in context a literal place outside of Jerusalem.
1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 TIMES TOTAL
Not a lot of support there for "eternal torment". The concept that there are departments in hell wherein people go to wait until...well, whatever...is it not based on that one word, hades, originating from Greek mythology upon which Jewish traditions were also based and that Jesus used their own false tradition as a parable, not to teach on the state of the dead, but a lesson that having riches not being a criteria for heaven, unless yoyu are willing to share those riches with those who needed help...a lesson in other words also in sharing the gospel? The Pharisees saw riches, as did the disciples, as evidence for God's blessings, and poverty, as evidence for God's curse. Yet Israel, throughout their existence, refused to share their blessings with anyone else, even to the point of devising laws to shut Gentiles out, and building fences around Jews to keep them in. Jesus was correcting their deluded mindset using a myth as the basis. If I were to come to you and say, "Did you hear about the story concerning the drop-bear that went walk-about in Wonderland with Alice", you know I would be telling a tale...not describing a literal event or place. Even though one of the characters may have a real name, and their activity somewhat literal. It was the same for the Jews. When Jesus used the word Hades, a place from Greek mythology ruled by Pluto the god of the underworld, they would have known Jesus was telling them a parable. Jesus did not believe in Greek mythology.
Can you explain to me how dead man, who is meant to be spirit having no body because the body has returned to dust, eyes to hear, has ears to hear, a mouth to speak, a tongue to taste, a stomach to process, and a mind to think?
That is clearly a mistranslation. A transliteration would be better.
Same problem. Same place. Sheol/Hades is DEFINITELY NOT the grave, since Christ Himself debunked that idea. He said that He would be in the heart of the earth (the lower parts of the earth) for three days and three night, and that place is called Sheol in the OT and Hades in the NT. And we have this prophecy to confirm that Christ remained in Sheol/Hades for three day and three nights, NOT in the grave (since His body lay in the tomb while He was preaching in Hades).
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Heb SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Ps 16:10)
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Gk HADES], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27)
Now this is really a PATHETIC DODGE since Christ would not have referred to the rubbish heap of Hinnom (outside Jerusalem) when He said these solemn words and repeated them three times for good measure:
MARK 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:[GEHENNA]
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
So, Brakelite, after all is said and done, the truth is not important enough for you to abandon your false doctrine about Hell and the afterlife. That is indeed a shame. And then to talk about Greek mythology and Jewish traditions in the face of the very words of Christ is adding insult to injury.
Hello @OzPen,
The thread is concerning the value of truth. I am not seeking to 'promote' anything. I simply told the truth concerning the state of the dead, as revealed in the Word of God.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
But this is the opposite of the truth regarding the dead and the afterlife (your words below):
"There is no consciousness in death. Man does not have an immortal soul, as you can see from such verses as, '... the soul that sinneth it shall surely die'. God only has immortality."
This is nothing other than the false doctrine of Soul Sleep.
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or not
OzSpen
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charity,
Don't you mean you are presenting the 'truth' of your interpretation of the state of the dead?
I gave you an example from Luke 16 of the state of the dead, both believer and unbeliever, and you chose to avoid that passage.
I also am a seeker of truth.
Oz
How can you possibly proclaim "definitely not the grave" with any authority when that understanding is only a parroting of popular opinion, bolstered only by the false doctrine of the natural immortality of man's soul? The Bible declares categorically that "Gon only is immortal", and that the gift of life is given only to the redeemed. In order for you, and the vast majority of Christianity with you, to sustain thise prevailing opinion on consciousness in death is to profusely deny, ignore, redefine, the numerous scriptures which use the word death to describe the fate of the sinner. God is Spirit. God only is immortal. God is the only immortal Spirit. Jesus redefined nothing. He died. Before His body saw corruption, He was risen. 3 days 3 nights (as per the Hebrew practice of counting part days and part nights as whole) in the grave. Heart of the earth is metaphorical. What it does not mean is a place of abode for immortal men to spemd time waiting for the resurrection...doing what may I ask for the 6000 years since Adam entered this place, and Abraham BTW where in scripture we are given no hint as to his whereabouts other than in the cave of Machpelah.
Not a dodge at all. I simply recognise what Jesus was referring to here...He was using metaphor to depict the state of the fire when the wicked meet their final fate...the fire of Gehenna burned constantly (not eternally as the wording according to some suggest) but that doesn't mean the fire cannot go out of its own accord after the fuel is expended. IT simply means it cannot be quenched. The allusion to the worm is also simple without adding heaps of unreasonable and illogical appendages to the story. The worms in Gehenna (the literal one) finished off what the fire left. Thus there was nothing left of the bodies that were tossed in there. So Christ's reference to Gehenna was not to some underworld fire pit where Satan is happily roasting chestnuts next to his victims. Christs use of that word was indeed deliberate, to inform his hearers of the nature of their fate if they fail to repent of their unbelief and sin.
1. No-one can put the fire out...it will continue to burn until such time it has accomplished its work.
2. That work is complete destruction. Total spirit/soul/body death.
No-one is immortal or eternally living unless it comes to them as a gift. It is an insult to God's character that lovers of eternal torment attribute to God a desire to gift eternal life to sinners in order to keep them in agony for ever. Such is an expression of unbelief. Unbelief in His wisdom and willingness to rid the universe of rebellion...unbelief in His willingness and power to fulfill justice...unbelief in the eternally enduring love of mercy and goodness that is inherent in an all wise and all loving God.
I am so sorry you feel insulted and injured by my understanding of scripture, and my apprehension of the nature of my God and Saviour. I am sure however one day when you learn the truth, you will get over it.
This could be a very good modern day paraphrase of the very first sermon on the subject of death in human-kinds history, when Satan himself said, "Ye shall not surely die".
Any thought that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal is contrary to scripture and common sense. The compartmentalising of "hell" into different provinces depending on their ultimate fate is no where to be found in scripture. The concept that the two places of abode represent heaven and an eternally burning hell is equally barren of any scriptural foundation, apart from the vivid imaginations of past Catholic and Greek scaremongers such as Dante. Any literal rendering of this parable creates far more questions nd problems than answers and solutions to the state of the dead. One example...has David, Abraham himself, the numerous prophets, and all the other saints that God loves from the past 6000 years of human history been spending all their time doing nothing but having to put up with the cries and complaints, the cursing and blaspheming, the abuse and screams of the wicked in their ears? For all this time? This is what you would call the justice and wisdom of a loving God for His people?
quietthinker
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Using your logic Oz, Abraham must have been in hades as well to have Lazarus in his bosom.....see how it doesn't stack up?
Hello there, @Enoch111,
I have no knowledge of any doctrine called, 'Soul Sleep', although I have heard the term used on forums: but that is man's terminology, born of human reasoning. The Scriptures tell us that there is no consciousness in death, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 tells us:-
'For the living know that they shall die:
but the dead know not any thing,'
* In Psalm 146:4 and Psalm 104:29 this is confirmed, see also Eccl. 9:10:-
Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
While I live will I praise the LORD:
I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help,
whose hope is in the LORD his God:'
(Psa 146:1-5)
'Thou hidest Thy face, they are troubled:
Thou takest away their breath, They die,
and return to their dust.
Thou sendest forth Thy spirit, they are created:
and Thou renewest the face of the earth.'
(Psalm 104:29-30)
'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.'
(Ecc 9:10)
Praise God!
His Word is clear and plain, His Word is Truth.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @OzSpen,
I have no reason to doubt that you are a 'seeker of truth', Oz. I also have no reason to 'avoid' any passage from Scripture you may present to me.
You referred to Luke 16, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, a story told by the Lord Jesus Christ to illustrate the hypocrisy of the Pharisees' doctrine, to whom He spoke. The story shows clearly that their teaching denied the testimony of Scripture concerning the state of the dead, examples of which I have quoted in my previous post to @Enoch111 (#218]. (Eccl. 9:5; Psalm 146:4; Psalm 104:29-30; Eccl. 9:10). They believed also that the dead could communicate with the living, and experience pain and anguish, which is a denial of Scripture too. They also avoided helping the poor by saying that they would receive their reward in the next life, which our Lord exposes in this story.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus has been used as a proof text concerning the state of the dead by traditionalists, but it was never intended for that purpose by the Lord Jesus Christ.
May His Name be Praised!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Ecclesiastes is frequently quoted by those who do not wish to take their doctrine from the New Testament. Why don't you stick with what is taught about the afterlife by Christ and the apostles?
The dead certainly know much according to Christ, but Ecclesiastes is written from the viewpoint of the natural man.
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