How many kingdoms in Daniel?

[Wish-it]

That's interesting. Can you say a little more? Name

The placement of the King of the South and the King of the North in Daniel 11 is highly intentional and prophetic. Contrary to the common claim that this chapter is about Antiochus IV Epiphanes and events around 180 BC, the vision is clearly far-reaching and concerns the spiritual conflict during the end times—specifically involving the New Testament Church and the rise of Satan’s final assault before the Second Coming.


Daniel 11 cannot be confined to historical events tied only to the desecration of the Second Temple. The chapter transitions through various ages but climaxes with events leading into the final tribulation. The angel’s explanation in Daniel 10:14 is key: “Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.” This time scope stretches well beyond Antiochus, and into the "time of the end" (Daniel 11:35, 40), or the "time of the Gentiles."

In this context, Media and Persia serve as a type—they represent the transition and blending of earthly kingdoms used by God to accomplish His judgment and purpose. But ultimately, they are shadows of spiritual realities in the New Testament era concerning the Corporate Church and her relationship with Satan.

The King of the South in this vision symbolizes the Corporate Church—once the faithful outward institution, but in the end compromised and apostate (cf. Revelation 2–3). The King of the North represents the kingdom of Satan, rising in power and deceit as the restrainer is removed (2 Thessalonians 2:6–10). These two entities—though seemingly opposed—eventually enter into agreement, just as Revelation 17:12–13 describes the ten horns (worldly powers) giving their kingdom to the Beast for a short time: “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” In other words, they have joined forces against the Saints!

This spiritual convergence is what Jesus referred to as the Abomination of Desolation, standing in the holy place (Matthew 24:15), when Satan takes his seat in the temple of God—that is, within the visible church itself (2 Thessalonians 2:4). This alliance between the King of the South and the King of the North is not political or national—it is spiritual betrayal.

This directly connects with what Jesus called the "times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24)—a period of divine judgment in which the outward, visible form of the church is handed over to be trampled underfoot. This is not referring to foreign armies invading a physical Jewish temple, but rather to false prophets, false christs, and unsaved people infiltrating the church, bringing apostasy and spiritual desolation within her walls. Revelation 11:2 mirrors this imagery, where the holy city is given to the Gentiles to tread underfoot for forty-two months—a symbolic period representing the church’s desecration by those who do not belong to Christ.

So yes, the structure of Daniel 11—North vs. South—ultimately climaxes in a spiritual unity in rebellion, setting the stage for the return of Christ and final judgment. This is not ancient history—it’s a prophecy being fulfilled in the time of the end.

To my mind there is a purely natural explanation to the KoN and KoS.

By following the scripture from Dan 2 thru Dan 7,8 and 11, its possible to work out who they are. Dan 8 reveals the process from Mede-Persia to Javan (identified as Greece in scripture. But Javan is the original Greek, and appears to encompass Greece and Turkey) Turkey appears to overcome Iran, then that leader become great but dies, Dan 8.8. Four leaders (from other nations) appear from that point, then at a later date out of one of those nations come the AC. Fast forward to Dan 11.3. Turkey has overcome Iran, but with the demise of their leader, a coalition of Islamic nations will form. They will select a leader, the KoN. There are various skirmishes (battles, negotiations, a treaty even) before a change of leadership in Dan 11.20. Then the new leader is installed, the AC. Various battles ensure between KoN and KoS. The AoD happens at Dan 11.31, the covenant of Dan 9.27 midpoint. Interesting that 2 Thess 2 says he is revealed at that point, yet he has been around prior from Dan 11.22. Maybe because believers will see him but not the world. "But you brethren are not in darkness etc".
The ACs demise is seen in Dan 11.45. Presumably the coming of the Lord WITH his kingdom (us??) Dan 2.44 It will crush ALL those kingdoms and bring them to an end" Why all? Because all those kingdoms will be the kingdoms surrounding Israel for the final battle with Israel. Guess who the KoS is? Clues Isaiah 64.8, Ezek 4.1-3, Zech 12.3. Jer 18. the clay. Why the brittleness of iron and clay Dan 2.41.42. Because Islam and Israel made a treaty, in defiance of God's directions.

 

[The PuP]

I'd suggest the 3 kings are the same. Probably the three from Dan 11.41 Moab, Ammon and Edom, who are also 3 of the 10 nations from Psalm 83. Also two of them are Lots descendants, Gen 19.38,39. That's identified as the reason for their reprieve in Dan 11.41. Deut 2 explains it. Dan 7.5 could also be indicating who was responsible for their being subdued as stated in Dan 7.24.

The 4 kings (of Daniel 7) arise out of the earth, not the sea. The vision is of 4 beasts arising from the sea. The interpretation is 4 kings arising from the earth. There will be 4 kings (having formerly lived) to be resurrected in the last days. (Daniel 12:2 says that it is at THIS TIME that some shall arise from the earth which shall be to everlasting shame and contempt) A (very difficult to understand) companion scripture to Daniel 7 is that found in 2Esdras 12 & 13. The 4th kingdom (prior to the breakup of the great image) is to be ruled by the 4th king. Dan 7:25 says that "another king" shall arise when the body of the little horn is given to the burning flame. This is the beast from the earth from Rev 13. The other 3 will then be subdued by this 4th kingdom when Christ sets up his kingdom at the 7th trumpet. The 3 uprooted horns are uprooted when the 4th king (the little horn) arrives on the scene with thy other 3 kings. Then he (little horn) suffers a mortal wound and this is when the beast from the bottomless pit (the beast from the earth) arrives on the scene. Did you ever wonder why (when at the end of things) the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire? It is because they are in possession of immortal bodies. The little horn is this 4th beast (of 4) who arises from the sea... the realm of the dead. He cannot die (physically). It is why the world wonders after the beast when he suffers a mortal (he should have died) wound, but doesn't (die). Read it closely. It does not say that he dies.

Edom, Moab and Ammon (aka Jordan) will not be given into his hand because that is the location of his "tabernacle between the seas in the glorious holy mount ". Notice, this is before "he comes to his end, and none shall help him". That mount is Mt. Nebo. That is the place where Moses is buried and Elijah ascended to heaven... the two witnesses!

Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[TribulationSigns]

By following the scripture from Dan 2 thru Dan 7,8 and 11, its possible to work out who they are. Dan 8 reveals the process from Mede-Persia to Javan (identified as Greece in scripture. But Javan is the original Greek, and appears to encompass Greece and Turkey) Turkey appears to overcome Iran, then that leader become great but dies, Dan 8.8. Four leaders (from other nations) appear from that point, then at a later date out of one of those nations come the AC. Fast forward to Dan 11.3. Turkey has overcome Iran, but with the demise of their leader, a coalition of Islamic nations will form. They will select a leader, the KoN. There are various skirmishes (battles, negotiations, a treaty even) before a change of leadership in Dan 11.20. Then the new leader is installed, the AC. Various battles ensure between KoN and KoS. The AoD happens at Dan 11.31, the covenant of Dan 9.27 midpoint. Interesting that 2 Thess 2 says he is revealed at that point, yet he has been around prior from Dan 11.22. Maybe because believers will see him but not the world. "But you brethren are not in darkness etc".
The ACs demise is seen in Dan 11.45. Presumably the coming of the Lord WITH his kingdom (us??) Dan 2.44 It will crush ALL those kingdoms and bring them to an end" Why all? Because all those kingdoms will be the kingdoms surrounding Israel for the final battle with Israel. Guess who the KoS is? Clues Isaiah 64.8, Ezek 4.1-3, Zech 12.3. Jer 18. the clay. Why the brittleness of iron and clay Dan 2.41.42. Because Islam and Israel made a treaty, in defiance of God's directions.

Huh? Too many speculations. I’ll move on

 

[Wick Stick]

By following the scripture from Dan 2 thru Dan 7,8 and 11, its possible to work out who they are. Dan 8 reveals the process from Mede-Persia to Javan (identified as Greece in scripture. But Javan is the original Greek, and appears to encompass Greece and Turkey) Turkey appears to overcome Iran, then that leader become great but dies, Dan 8.8. Four leaders (from other nations) appear from that point, then at a later date out of one of those nations come the AC. Fast forward to Dan 11.3. Turkey has overcome Iran, but with the demise of their leader, a coalition of Islamic nations will form. They will select a leader, the KoN. There are various skirmishes (battles, negotiations, a treaty even) before a change of leadership in Dan 11.20. Then the new leader is installed, the AC. Various battles ensure between KoN and KoS. The AoD happens at Dan 11.31, the covenant of Dan 9.27 midpoint. Interesting that 2 Thess 2 says he is revealed at that point, yet he has been around prior from Dan 11.22. Maybe because believers will see him but not the world. "But you brethren are not in darkness etc".
The ACs demise is seen in Dan 11.45. Presumably the coming of the Lord WITH his kingdom (us??) Dan 2.44 It will crush ALL those kingdoms and bring them to an end" Why all? Because all those kingdoms will be the kingdoms surrounding Israel for the final battle with Israel. Guess who the KoS is? Clues Isaiah 64.8, Ezek 4.1-3, Zech 12.3. Jer 18. the clay. Why the brittleness of iron and clay Dan 2.41.42. Because Islam and Israel made a treaty, in defiance of God's directions.

No offense, but my question wasn't directed at you. I was asking @Brakelite to elaborate on what he wrote.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, it is. Prophecies can be re-fulfilled, and this is demonstrated multiple times across the New Testament.

Such as? Give me a couple examples, at least.

The whole book of Matthew is built around the idea of Jesus fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies. Many of them are plucked out of context.

What are you talking about? Do you think Jesus didn't know the real context of the prophecies? I trust His discernment of the context much more than yours.

Most of them were already fulfilled before that time.

Such as? Stop being so vague and give examples of what you're talking about.

Mark and Luke cover the same material. Paul applies the same principle in his letters.

It appears that (re-)filling the Scriptures was an intent of Jesus and the Apostles. Shall we not use the same guidepost to order our actions?

You can make scripture say just about anything if we can't ever know when a prophecy has been fully fulfilled. I don't buy this at all.

 

[Wick Stick]

Such as? Give me a couple examples, at least.

What are you talking about? Do you think Jesus didn't know the real context of the prophecies? I trust His discernment of the context much more than yours.

Such as? Stop being so vague and give examples of what you're talking about.

You can make scripture say just about anything if we can't ever know when a prophecy has been fully fulfilled. I don't buy this at all.

We had a whole topic about this, and then a follow-up topic to that one. Don't remember if you partook, but the posts #1 & #3 contains several examples.

Here's an example I had added that topic on a later page (re-post!):

Matthew 2:15 And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Matthew is quoting Hosea:

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Now, Hosea IS a prophet, but right here he's talking about something that already happened. And he's talking about Israel, not Jesus.

There are a lot of these. I could fill more than one page with them. Hopefully this will suffice for now.

 

[Wish-it]

For what it is worth.... I would ask that you might consider why the KOS and the KON are mentioned at the beginning of chapter 11 and then at the end of chapter 11. That might tell you something..... and then you can begin to unpack the large middle section of chapter 11....

All of Dan 11 us about both KoN and KoS, isn't it

 

[CTK]

All of Dan 11 us about both KoN and KoS, isn't it

Well, yes and no. Certianly, chapter 11 begins and ends with recognizing both KOS and KON but in between 11:5 45 there is so much that takes place. I would respectfully ask that you might consider each of these important events that make up chapter 11 (outside of 11:4):


1) we have the arrival of the Messiah,
2) we have the establishment of His church,
3) we have the demis of pagan Rome,
4) we have the growth of the Christian church,
5) we have the presence of the little horn,
6) we have the little horn replacing pagan Rome,
7) we have the little horn appropriating His church,
8) we have the end time events when he will be destroyed.

That is chapter 11. No 4 generals post Alexander, no Antiochus Epiphanes, no Diodache consideration. The book of Daniel is about the Messiah and His plan of restoration and salvation. Each of t he 4 kingdoms identified in the chapter 2 metal man image are purposeful - each has their own God given mission within His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. Those folks just mentioned are all outside of those 4 kingdoms - and they do not have a God given mission. This is why chapter 2 is so critical to understand and must be kept - the borders and boundaries of these 4 and only 4 kingdoms have been specifically given to us to ensure all of His prophecies are to be interpreted and found within this 4 kingdom structure - no exceptions. Chapter 9 gave us the cross that took place during the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Jesus fulfilled all of his God given mission in 9:24. He has gone onto be with His Father once again and cleanse the heavenly sanctuary. And chapter 11 will address the post cross events that are within His plan of salvation until His return. Each of the 8 elements mentioned above can be found, not within our history books, but the final phase of His plan of salvation for mankind.

 

[Wish-it]

Huh? Too many speculations. I’ll move on

Come on, you can do it.

Well, yes and no. Certianly, chapter 11 begins and ends with recognizing both KOS and KON but in between 11:5 45 there is so much that takes place. I would respectfully ask that you might consider each of these important events that make up chapter 11 (outside of 11:4):


1) we have the arrival of the Messiah,
2) we have the establishment of His church,
3) we have the demis of pagan Rome,
4) we have the growth of the Christian church,
5) we have the presence of the little horn,
6) we have the little horn replacing pagan Rome,
7) we have the little horn appropriating His church,
8) we have the end time events when he will be destroyed.

That is chapter 11. No 4 generals post Alexander, no Antiochus Epiphanes, no Diodache consideration. The book of Daniel is about the Messiah and His plan of restoration and salvation. Each of t he 4 kingdoms identified in the chapter 2 metal man image are purposeful - each has their own God given mission within His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. Those folks just mentioned are all outside of those 4 kingdoms - and they do not have a God given mission. This is why chapter 2 is so critical to understand and must be kept - the borders and boundaries of these 4 and only 4 kingdoms have been specifically given to us to ensure all of His prophecies are to be interpreted and found within this 4 kingdom structure - no exceptions. Chapter 9 gave us the cross that took place during the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Jesus fulfilled all of his God given mission in 9:24. He has gone onto be with His Father once again and cleanse the heavenly sanctuary. And chapter 11 will address the post cross events that are within His plan of salvation until His return. Each of the 8 elements mentioned above can be found, not within our history books, but the final phase of His plan of salvation for mankind.

What other part of scripture gets the historical attention that Rome gets? Scripture confirms scripture. If we consign Daniel's chapters to history we could well miss what He is saying to us in our generation. That would be sad. If need be, consider them both for years ago, but also for our time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We had a whole topic about this, and then a follow-up topic to that one. Don't remember if you partook, but the posts #1 & #3 contains several examples.

Here's an example I had added that topic on a later page (re-post!):

There are a lot of these. I could fill more than one page with them. Hopefully this will suffice for now.

There are not multiple fulfillments of those prophecies. Jesus explained the real fulfillment of them, which had not previously been apparent and understood. I do not buy this idea of multiple fulfillments of prophecies because you can just make scripture say whatever you want it to say with that approach. You could try to say that Isaiah 9:6-7 will be fulfilled again some day with some other child being born who will be called "Wonderful Counselor, "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father" and "Prince of Peace". How do we ever know when a prophecy has been fulfilled if there are multiple fulfillments? No, I'm not buying this at all. This is what people resort to when they are shown the fulfillment of a prophecy like Zechariah 13:7, but don't want to accept it as being fulfilled since it doesn't line up with their doctrine.

 

[covenantee]

We had a whole topic about this, and then a follow-up topic to that one. Don't remember if you partook, but the posts #1 & #3 contains several examples.

Here's an example I had added that topic on a later page (re-post!):

There are a lot of these. I could fill more than one page with them. Hopefully this will suffice for now.

The sole fulfillment of Hosea 11:1 is identified as Christ in Matthew 2:15.

There is no re-fulfillment.

 

[Wish-it]

Huh? Too many speculations. I’ll move on

What nations do u think Dan 2 is indicating?

 

[Wick Stick]

I do not buy this idea of multiple fulfillments of prophecies because you can just make scripture say whatever you want it to say with that approach.

You feel that this leads to something sort of chaos in interpreting Scripture. I assure you - it doesn't.

If someone tries to use Scripture that way, and they are just acting out of their own understanding... it just fails. And then we know that they are full of crap. Actually, this has happened a lot throughout history.

You could try to say that Isaiah 9:6-7 will be fulfilled again some day with some other child being born who will be called "Wonderful Counselor, "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father" and "Prince of Peace".

You could try, I suppose. It would take a strange set of circumstances for it to even be considered. You'd need either a case where parthenogenesis yielded a son (scientifically impossible), or the presence of temple virgins (they haven't existed for thousands of years).

How do we ever know when a prophecy has been fulfilled if there are multiple fulfillments?

It's usually pretty obvious when a prediction comes true, because the person says, "see! look! I told you so!"

If you're asking how we know when there will be no further fulfillments... we don't! That isn't a bad thing. It allows us to use Scripture as a pattern, and look for the ways in which we might fit into that pattern.

No, I'm not buying this at all. This is what people resort to when they are shown the fulfillment of a prophecy like Zechariah 13:7, but don't want to accept it as being fulfilled since it doesn't line up with their doctrine.

If I put 5 examples of something happening in front of you, but you still refuse to believe it... I reckon that's on you.

 

[Wick Stick]

The sole fulfillment of Hosea 11:1 is identified as Christ in Matthew 2:15.

There is no re-fulfillment.

So you didn't read the verses after that one then...

1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.
3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.

That interpretation results in Jesus sacrificing to Baals. I think we can rule that one out pretty easily.

 

[covenantee]

they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.

Explain how "they" is Jesus.

Yes, we can rule that out.

 

[Wick Stick]

Explain how "they" is Jesus.

Yes, we can rule that out.

It isn't.

But the context of the verses demands that "Israel" be the same people as "My son" be the same as "them" and the same as "Ephraim." If you think otherwise, your grammar is poor beyond measure.

 

[covenantee]

It isn't.

But the context of the verses demands that "Israel" be the same people as "My son" be the same as "them" and the same as "Ephraim." If you think otherwise, your grammar is poor beyond measure.

What prophetic fulfillment other than Christ exists in the verses?

 

[Brakelite]

That's interesting. Can you say a little more? Name names?

Thank you for asking. I won't name anyone yet, because I think it's important to first flesh out why I think they are ideologies rather than empires or despots etc. I'm working on a fuller response.

We had a whole topic about this, and then a follow-up topic to that one. Don't remember if you partook, but the posts #1 & #3 contains several examples.

Here's an example I had added that topic on a later page (re-post!):

There are a lot of these. I could fill more than one page with them. Hopefully this will suffice for now.

That particular example is a very good one that identifies Jesus as not only the Son of God, but the personification of true Israel. It reveals the genius behind so many prophecies that have double applications. And yes, Matthew has several. They are not out of context at all, but are set precisely in their correct context. Hosea was certainly looking back into history, but being a prophet revealed the genius of inspiration, the holy Spirit through Matthew applying that statement of history in a prophetic manner and applying it to true Israel... The Son of God.

 

[Wick Stick]

Thank you for asking. I won't name anyone yet, because I think it's important to first flesh out why I think they are ideologies rather than empires or despots etc. I'm working on a fuller response.

Why not both?

That particular example is a very good one that identifies Jesus as not only the Son of God, but the personification of true Israel. It reveals the genius behind so many prophecies that have double applications. And yes, Matthew has several. They are not out of context at all, but are set precisely in their correct context. Hosea was certainly looking back into history, but being a prophet revealed the genius of inspiration, the holy Spirit through Matthew applying that statement of history in a prophetic manner and applying it to true Israel... The Son of God.

I see it as more than that.

Jesus stated purpose in Matthew 5 is "to fulfill the Law and the Prophets." We think of fulfilling the Law as carrying out its statutes. We think of fulfilling the Prophets as doing what was predicted. But looking at this fulfillment and others, it seems that Jesus and the apostles were doing more than that. They claim fulfillment even where nothing was predicted. It seems to me that Jesus went out of His way to walk out the text of the Law and the Prophets. They were rehearsing the Biblical text (well some of it anyway).

 

[Brakelite]

No offense, but my question wasn't directed at you. I was asking @Brakelite to elaborate on what he wrote.

And in that note, although it is no longer on topic of the thread, I will give a small explanation of my thinking.
Revelation reveals a beast having 7 heads. Those heads down the full extent of prophetic time from e even the time of Babel to our day. Babel was the root of Babylon, and the worldview of the tower builders was one of self preservation, and works salvation. This worldview persisted through the following empires, Meda Persia, Greece, and Rome. All shared the same characteristics, and all received it from their anticedents. Principally, pagan state unions, where pagan idolatry and philosophy walked united with the state, but increasing in power and influence as time went on, until the Roman emperors proclaimed themselves gods. The perfect union. That was the OT story, in all the enemies that came against God's people. From Egypt to Assyria, from Babylon to Rome. Local literal powers arraigned against Israel. A local literal power. Those were summarised in Daniels 4 beasts from the sea, and the 4 base metals in the statue.
The 4th beast however grew horns, one of which became a dominant power reaching into NT times. The statue morphed into a mix of iron and clay, reaching all the way to the second coming. But the beast that rose out of the sea in revelation 13 had 7 heads. And the beast itself comprised of characteristics of Daniels 4 beasts. So 4 of the heads is explained by the first 4 powers of Daniel 2,7 and 8. But what of the other 3?
I believe they can be explained by their global influence. The first beast of Revelation 13 itself is a power in its own right. A NT power. The second beast of Revelation 13 also has global influence. So also did the beast of Revelation 11. All NT powers with global influence. This was further emphasised in Revelation 16...
“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ”
Revelation 16:13 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

3 end time global spiritual powers working in conjunction with one another in opposition to God's people, but having earthly manifestations or institutions that at times war against each other. Remember, Satan is behind all those who war against God's people, but the agents he uses often fight and squabble among themselves. At the end however, all will unite in the form of Babylon the Great, and seek to destroy the church before the second coming. 3 final global spiritual ideologies, having physical entities on earth to represent them, coming together in a united effort to destroy God's people.
The first clue as to the actual identity of those institutions lies in the history and what was the constant common denominator among all the previous powers the warred against Israel. Pagan/occult/idolatry in union with the state. Note that the second beast of Revelation forces worship. A state enforcing spiritual practise. And doing so with the express intention of exalting the first beast... Also a state having spiritual connections. And the third? It began as a union of church and state, but reacted against the church side of things and for 3 and a half years banned religion, murdered thousands of Christians of all persuasions, and exalted atheism, and thus formed the roots of socialism and communism, having global influence and power.

Now think of the following...

• Global Ecumenism...
• Growing relationship with evangelicalism and the state in America but with the potential for global effects particularly in those nations already embracing closer ties between church and state such as in Europe
• ... Growing influence of socialism in society being the traditional borders of the Society union, Korea, and China especially in universities and even in theological institutions.

3 spiritual global institutions. Although I must add a caveat here. Two of that institutions are clearly discernible. The third however, the best from the bottomless pit, is ultimately Satan himself, and revealed in the occult itself. Can they be connected? Are there links between the 3? Are they the 3 remaining heads of the 7 headed beast of Revelation 13? Babylon, Meda Persia, Greece, Rome...
What was the little horn that grew out of the Roman beast and still lives today?

What was the second beast that grew as the first beast was appearing to die?

What was the beast that warred against the church, and planted the roots of socialism and communism and atheism in the world? The same beast that is spiritually called

• Sodom (known for its licentiousness and neglect of the poor)...
• Egypt (where pharoah said "I know not the Lord",)
• and where our Lord was crucified, (not literally, but spiritually through the destruction and death of God's people).