How to defend the trinity?

[1234567]

Are you saved?
How do you get saved?

You are saved by faith that God sacrificed his only begotton son to cleanse you from your sins. Faith comes from reading the bible because it causes you to realize your sinful nature and causes you to love God. Other things might give faith as well.

 

[theefaith]

It depends on your definition of Lord.
Scriptures often do not offer detailed explanations.
Some scriptures have been modified.
But as far as Yeshua's connection and relationship with His Father Yahweh, the Gospels are the best explanation, a storyline of Yeshua and Yahweh and the Holy Spirit in motion and how They interact with each other.

modalism or Sibelius heresy?
Condemned by the holy apostles in council

 

[Grailhunter]

modalism or Sibelius heresy?
Condemned by the holy apostles in council

The ministry of Christ was condemned by the holy apostles in council? You will have to explain that one.

 

[theefaith]

You are saved by faith that God sacrificed his only begotton son to cleanse you from your sins. Faith comes from reading the bible because it causes you to realize your sinful nature and causes you to love God. Other things might give faith as well.

really? what If you lived before 381 and there was no bible?
What if you lived before the 20th century when most people could not read?

what about the promise of the father, sacred oath or sacrament to wash ya from our sins in the sacrament of baptism?

acts 2:28-39 promise
Refers to ez 36:25-27

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

 

[Helen]

How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone?

wrangler we know you say no!

God NEVER needs defending by man. To even ask this and to think it can be done by man is great arrogance.

The godhead needs no defence .,, God IS .

 

[theefaith]

The ministry of Christ was condemned by the holy apostles in council? You will have to explain that one.[/QUOTE

where? How? What are you talking about, please be specific!

the apostles exercise the ministry of Christ!
The apostles are the ministry of Christ with his very authority! Matt 16:18 18:18 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 16:13

The apostles govern the church and administer the kingdom


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

 

[theefaith]

God NEVER needs defending by man. To even ask this and to think it can be done by man is great arrogance.

The godhead needs no defence .,, God IS .

Not God dear, but the doctrine
Contend for thee faith Jude 1:3

 

[Grailhunter]

Sounds like you got some mental loop going on so go back to post 37 of this thread

 

[theefaith]

Still does not explain what ministry your talking about

the rule of Christian faith is the teaching authority of the apostles acts 2:42

 

[Zao is life]

How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone?

wrangler we know you say no!

Pick the parts you want from Post #51

 

[Zao is life]

Either get rid of, or ignore major core portions of scripture that do not support its reality, and/or recreate/introduce/inject new trinity-like meanings in major portions of scripture.

I thought you already tried all this anyway and failed in this mission? Are you trying to do it all over again hoping for a different and more positive result?

By now you must realize it cannot be defended based solely on scripture. So now you have appealed to a wider audience for assistance?

Good luck with it.

I recommend you install the trinity-free virus scripture mindware and give yourself a long cold reboot. You might think a miracle occurred when you get back online. You might even understand scripture more clearly and write commentaries for once in your life. Who know how far you could go....APAK

You're living proof of the fact that if you're standing in a dark room you can't expel darkness by hurling punches at the darkness. You shine a light into the darkness and the darkness will be expelled by the light. But the blind still won't see the light.. They will say it's not there. ("Where's the light? I don't see the light").

That's you.

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do." (Isaiah 55;10-11).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4).

TWO WITNESSES TO THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THE FATHER

Just as the existence of creation bears witness to the Word of God which created it, so the Word of God which created all things bears witness to the existence of the Almighty God (The Father).

LIVING WORD

"For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12).

The Greek for "Word" in John 1:1 is "Logos", and (Strong's Greek Dictionary G03056), it means:

(a) something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse); and

(b) reasoning (the mental faculty); and

(c) motive; by extension a computation and

(d) specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is Christ):

THE WORD EXISTED FROM EVERLASTING, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS

The wisdom of God is a characteristic of Logos/The Word, and the following is what Proverbs has to say about wisdom (specifically, the wisdom of God):

Proverbs 8:22-36:
"The LORD possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was anointed from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth ever was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no springs heavy with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I travailed; before He had made the earth, or the fields or the highest part of the dust of the world.

When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep; when He set the clouds above; when He made the strong fountains of the deep; when He gave to the sea its limit that the waters should not pass His command; when He appointed the foundations of the earth; and I was a workman at His side; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the world, His earth; and My delight was with the sons of men.

And now listen to Me, O sons; for blessed are those who keep My ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it. Blessed is the man who hears Me, watching daily at My gates, waiting at the posts of My doors. For whoever finds Me finds life, and shall obtain favor from the LORD. But he who sins against Me wrongs his own soul; all who hate Me love death."

THE HOLY SPIRIT

Jesus said, "But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you." (John 14:26).

"And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He (the Spirit of truth) shall testify of Me." (John 15:26).

"He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son." (1 John 5:10 - the witness is the Holy Spirit).

Jesus is called God's witness in Revelation 1:5.

THREE WITNESSES TO THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THE FATHER

Those who are not blind can see that just as the existence of creation bears witness to the Word of God which created it, so the Word of God which created all things bears witness to the existence of Almighty God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Word of God. (1 John 5:10).

Only one of the above three witnesses is created. , i.e the "all things" mentioned below:

"There is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It is God who has shone His Light into the world. His Word is Light and truth, and His Spirit bears witness.

Open your eyes.

 

[APAK]

You're living proof of the fact that if you're standing in a dark room you can't expel darkness by hurling punches at the darkness. You shine a light into the darkness and the darkness will be expelled by the light. But the blind still won't see the light.. They will say it's not there. ("Where's the light? I don't see the light").

That's you.

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth." (Psalm 33:6).

"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do." (Isaiah 55;10-11).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4).

TWO WITNESSES TO THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THE FATHER

Just as the existence of creation bears witness to the Word of God which created it, so the Word of God which created all things bears witness to the existence of the Almighty God (The Father).

LIVING WORD

"For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12).

The Greek for "Word" in John 1:1 is "Logos", and (Strong's Greek Dictionary G03056), it means:

(a) something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse); and

(b) reasoning (the mental faculty); and

(c) motive; by extension a computation and

(d) specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is Christ):

THE WORD EXISTED FROM EVERLASTING, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS

The wisdom of God is a characteristic of Logos/The Word, and the following is what Proverbs has to say about wisdom (specifically, the wisdom of God):

Proverbs 8:22-36:
"The LORD possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was anointed from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth ever was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no springs heavy with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I travailed; before He had made the earth, or the fields or the highest part of the dust of the world.

When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep; when He set the clouds above; when He made the strong fountains of the deep; when He gave to the sea its limit that the waters should not pass His command; when He appointed the foundations of the earth; and I was a workman at His side; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him; rejoicing in the world, His earth; and My delight was with the sons of men.

And now listen to Me, O sons; for blessed are those who keep My ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it. Blessed is the man who hears Me, watching daily at My gates, waiting at the posts of My doors. For whoever finds Me finds life, and shall obtain favor from the LORD. But he who sins against Me wrongs his own soul; all who hate Me love death."

THE HOLY SPIRIT

Jesus said, "But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you." (John 14:26).

"And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He (the Spirit of truth) shall testify of Me." (John 15:26).

"He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son." (1 John 5:10 - the witness is the Holy Spirit).

Jesus is called God's witness in Revelation 1:5.

THREE WITNESSES TO THE EXISTENCE OF GOD THE FATHER

Those who are not blind can see that just as the existence of creation bears witness to the Word of God which created it, so the Word of God which created all things bears witness to the existence of Almighty God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Word of God. (1 John 5:10).

Only one of the above three witnesses is created. , i.e the "all things" mentioned below:

"There is to us only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It is God who has shone His Light into the world. His Word is Light and truth, and His Spirit bears witness.

Open your eyes.

So what is your point? That you are in the true light and I'm in true darkness on this matter? If that is the case you will have to convince me you are in fact in the true light. Your post does not suggest this at all.

How did you come into the light and remain there FG?

APAK

 

[Addy]

How did you come into the light and remain there FG?

I could answer that question... LOL

 

[Brakelite]

Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 mph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

You don't understand that as you ignore the truth being taught you by other Christians, you will have to answer to God why you ignored these scriptures you yourself quoted demanding of others that they listen to you. Because those scriptures apply to every child of God who believes in Christ and Him crucified. Some of those are promises, some directions, but they apply to everyone. Jesus is talking directly to His disciples, but indirectly to all of us... You, me, and everyone else in this forum. Having quoted those scriptures, and stating their relevance, you have no excuse for disobeying them.
"If you reject those I send, you reject Me". You have no excuse for rejecting anyone here, having no standard of doctrine to compare truth... Seeing you reject scripture as applying to yourself.

 

[Brakelite]

How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone?

wrangler we know you say no!

Depends on what you mean by trinity. Do you mean what the Bible actually teaches concerning the trinity/Godhead, or do you mean the Orthodox creeds concerning the trinity? I can certainly defend the Godhead, and three divine persons from scripture, that's easy. Defending the Orthodox Trinity and it's man inspired assumptions is another matter all together.

 

[theefaith]

So what is your point? That you are in the true light and I'm in true darkness on this matter? If that is the case you will have to convince me you are in fact in the true light. Your post does not suggest this at all.

How did you come into the light and remain there FG?

APAK

Then how can Jesus be eternal?

 

[theefaith]

And what happened to obedience of faith? Rom 16:26

held to the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42

 

[theefaith]

You don't understand that as you ignore the truth being taught you by other Christians, you will have to answer to God why you ignored these scriptures you yourself quoted demanding of others that they listen to you. Because those scriptures apply to every child of God who believes in Christ and Him crucified. Some of those are promises, some directions, but they apply to everyone. Jesus is talking directly to His disciples, but indirectly to all of us... You, me, and everyone else in this forum. Having quoted those scriptures, and stating their relevance, you have no excuse for disobeying them.
"If you reject those I send, you reject Me". You have no excuse for rejecting anyone here, having no standard of doctrine to compare truth... Seeing you reject scripture as applying to yourself.

then show me the keys Jesus gave you???

 

[theefaith]

There can only be one head of the church on earth!

one who is prime minister over the kingdom having the jurisdictional authority of the keys of the kingdom of heaven!!! Peter and his successors alone!

 

[theefaith]

Depends on what you mean by trinity. Do you mean what the Bible actually teaches concerning the trinity/Godhead, or do you mean the Orthodox creeds concerning the trinity? I can certainly defend the Godhead, and three divine persons from scripture, that's easy. Defending the Orthodox Trinity and it's man inspired assumptions is another matter all together.

the church teach what Christ revealed eph 4:5 Jude 1:3