How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Butch5]

It means when a person dies they are sleeping and not alert after death until they are resurrected.

I believe when a person dies they are dead. I don't see how a dead person can sleep.

 

[Butch5]

I'm hearing both sides of this "soul sleep" argument...and, from a neutral perspective, since I don't even pretend to know what happens after death, (but I'm pretty sure God has it under control and I trust Him), something is missing.
And it is missing on both sides.
You guys are so bound and determined to be right, that you have forgotten Jesus' command to His disciples.


I leave you to think about it.

Actually, there is quite a bit in the Scriptures about this. I think it's pretty clear what they say. I think Idea that man lives on after death is an idea that comes from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

 

[Barrd]

Actually, there is quite a bit in the Scriptures about this. I think it's pretty clear what they say. I think Idea that man lives on after death is an idea that comes from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

I suppose that when I read my Bible, it is with an eye to life, not death.
I'm willing to leave the details of what happens next to God. I'm quite sure that He has it under control, and I'm equally positive that I do not.
I trust His promise. His gift is everlasting life. He has gone to prepare a place for me that where He is, I may be also.
That's all I need to know.

 

[Butch5]

I suppose that when I read my Bible, it is with an eye to life, not death.
I'm willing to leave the details of what happens next to God. I'm quite sure that He has it under control, and I'm equally positive that I do not.
I trust His promise. His gift is everlasting life. He has gone to prepare a place for me that where He is, I may be also.
That's all I need to know.

I hear you. There is some danger though in having a wrong understanding. Some things are OK to leave alone some things are dangerous to leave alone. For instance, the debate about whether there is a pre-trib rapture or not. Those who hold that there is one expect to be taken out of the world before the rapture. The problem is that if there isn't one they will not be prepared to go through that tribulation. Those who don't believe the doctrine will likely prepare themselves for this time that will be worse than has ever been seen. Imagine those people who have believed that they would be removed before hand standing there facing this time completely unprepared. I wonder what that will do to their faith as they expected that God was going to remove them and here there facing a time like there has never been.

 

[Barrd]

I hear you. There is some danger though in having a wrong understanding. Some things are OK to leave alone some things are dangerous to leave alone. For instance, the debate about whether there is a pre-trib rapture or not. Those who hold that there is one expect to be taken out of the world before the rapture. The problem is that if there isn't one they will not be prepared to go through that tribulation. Those who don't believe the doctrine will likely prepare themselves for this time that will be worse than has ever been seen. Imagine those people who have believed that they would be removed before hand standing there facing this time completely unprepared. I wonder what that will do to their faith as they expected that God was going to remove them and here there facing a time like there has never been.

I never thought of it that way.
Yes, I can see how it would be devastating.
But then, I suspect that, if Jesus were planning to "rapture" anyone out of the tribulation, He'd better do it pretty soon...He may already be late!

Doesn't it seem rather strange that people are, even now, being imprisoned, tortured, and killed for their faith? If Jesus were going to rescue anyone from the trials we face in this world, surely He would have rescued His apostles...but He let them be martyred.
Why did He let the Inquisitions go unchallenged?
Or the World Wars? Certainly the Holocaust should have gotten His attention...if ever there was a "time of Jacob's trouble", wouldn't that qualify?

Looking around me at the world right now, I wonder how much longer He will bear with us. If it were up to me, I'm afraid I would just wash my hands of the whole ridiculous mess.
I wonder...

 

[Butch5]

I never thought of it that way.
Yes, I can see how it would be devastating.
But then, I suspect that, if Jesus were planning to "rapture" anyone out of the tribulation, He'd better do it pretty soon...He may already be late!

Doesn't it seem rather strange that people are, even now, being imprisoned, tortured, and killed for their faith? If Jesus were going to rescue anyone from the trials we face in this world, surely He would have rescued His apostles...but He let them be martyred.
Why did He let the Inquisitions go unchallenged?
Or the World Wars? Certainly the Holocaust should have gotten His attention...if ever there was a "time of Jacob's trouble", wouldn't that qualify?

Looking around me at the world right now, I wonder how much longer He will bear with us. If it were up to me, I'm afraid I would just wash my hands of the whole ridiculous mess.
I wonder...

I agree! According to my studies He's not long in coming. If you're familiar with the 6000 years teaching of the early Christians we're coming very close to that time. I think you're going to see things get contractually worse from this point on.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe Phil 1:23 works off of 2 Cor 5:8, and is speaking of the anxious heart of Paul. If you expand 2 Cor 5:8, you will see it is talking about the first resurrection.

You've provided no exposition. I think you're drawing a long bow!

 

[OzSpen]

Christ never said it was a parable. And even if it was, a parable always teaches some type of truth in a way simple people can understand. Either way, the good go to heaven and the bad don't.

In Luke 16:19-31 (ESV), the story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus, it does not say that 'the good go to heaven'. It said that the poor man, Lazarus, 'was carried by the angels to Abraham's side [bosom]' (Lk 16: 22 ESV) while the rich man was in torment at death in Hades (Lk 16:23 ESV).

 

[ATP]

You've provided no exposition. I think you're drawing a long bow!

Well, most people take 2 Cor 5:8 out of context because they do not expand on the verse. That's what you're suppose to do when interpreting scripture, but most don't. Notice that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and 2 Cor 5:1-10 both speak of the first resurrection, immortality, being clothed and being swallowed up. And 2 Cor 5:8 is right smack in the middle? That is no coincidence.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-10 NIV For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7For we live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

 

[OzSpen]

You are adding to the story that which the story does not speak about. It isn't about the priesthood at all but one man who happened to be a Priest. He doesn't represent all priests nor does the beggar represent all beggars. This is solely about these two men and shows a good man who is poor can go to heaven while a bad man who is rich can go to hell. Adding anything else to this is Eisegesis.

You are complaining about adding to the story and engaging in eisegesis of Luke 16:19-31 (ESV). However, it is you who is speaking of 'heaven' in this passage. Where is the Greek ouranos (heaven) in this passage?

 

[ewq1938]

You mean there WERE rules attached. That was the Old Covenant. If you will recall, we are no longer under that covenant.
It's a new day, and we have freedom in Christ.

Sure but the Sabbath that we have in the NT has nothing to do with not working or cooking etc etc on a Saturday.

 

[ewq1938]

In Luke 16:19-31 (ESV), the story (parable) of the rich man and Lazarus, it does not say that 'the good go to heaven'. It said that the poor man, Lazarus, 'was carried by the angels to Abraham's side [bosom]' (Lk 16: 22 ESV) while the rich man was in torment at death in Hades (Lk 16:23 ESV).

Other scriptures make it clear the good go to heaven and the bad go to Hades. The story Christ told would not violate that scriptural fact. Therefore Lazarus was a good man and the rich man was not.

 

[OzSpen]

Isn't the point of the parable that the Jews would not listen, even after Jesus rose from the dead?
Or am I missing it as well?

Even though Jesus told the story/parable before the passion-resurrection, Luke 16:31 (ESV) does seem to give credence to your point: 'He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

 

[ewq1938]

Where is the Greek ouranos (heaven) in this passage?

That's called the argument from silence fallacy:

An argument from silence (in Latin argumentum ex silentio) is a conclusion based on the absence of an exact statement or exact term or exact word, rather than the presence of the concept, description or meaning. It is often found in the example of a question asking for something the asker already knows does not exist. Example, "Where is the word "Trinity" found in the bible?" or in this case, where is the word "ouranos (heaven)" found. The fallacy is the requirement for that exact word to be found somewhere rather than the concept of the Heaven being found or in this case another term "Abraham's bosom" . People unfamiliar with this fallacious tactic might consider the type of question valid when it is in fact invalid and fallacious in nature. Had you bothered to study this, you would have learned the Jews called heaven "Abraham's bosom".

 

[ATP]

Other scriptures make it clear the good go to heaven and the bad go to Hades. The story Christ told would not violate that scriptural fact. Therefore Lazarus was a good man and the rich man was not.

Hades is the grave where ALL people go.

 

[OzSpen]

That's called the argument from silence fallacy:

An argument from silence (in Latin argumentum ex silentio) is a conclusion based on the absence of an exact statement or exact term or exact word, rather than the presence of the concept, description or meaning. It is often found in the example of a question asking for something the asker already knows does not exist. Example, "Where is the word "Trinity" found in the bible?" or in this case, where is the word "ouranos (heaven)" found. The fallacy is the requirement for that exact word to be found somewhere rather than the concept of the Heaven being found or in this case another term "Abraham's bosom" . People unfamiliar with this fallacious tactic might consider the type of question valid when it is in fact invalid and fallacious in nature. Had you bothered to study this, you would have learned the Jews called heaven "Abraham's bosom".

I understand logical fallacies well, but the fact is that the word 'heaven' does NOT appear in the passage on the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16) because the ultimate destiny of believers - heaven - has not yet arrived. Believers await the final consummation. We also need to consider the place of progressive revelation from OT to the time of Christ and then to after his resurrection and the teaching of the NT church in Scripture.

Have I bothered to study life-after-death issues. I most certainly have in my 50 some years of being a believer.

A passage such as 2 Peter 2:9 (ESV) confirms that the unrighteous after death are continuously being kept under punishment until the day of judgment. As for believers, 2 Cor 12:2-4 (ESV) affirms that they go to Paradise awaiting their future resurrection and eternal state.

Robert Morey has written what I consider to be an outstanding publication, Death and the Afterlife (1984 Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis: Minnesota). In chapter 3, he deals with some of the topics of this thread, 'Sheol, Hades and Gehenna', which has here made available on his website, 'Faith Defenders'. He wrote:

In the New Testament, there is, therefore, a development of understanding which took place after Christ’s resurrection. Before Jesus was raised from the dead, the apostles assumed that everyone went to Sheol or Hades. This Hades had two sections, one for the righteous and one for the wicked. But Christ’s resurrection changed this picture. Thus Paul uses the language of transition when he speaks of Christ taking the righteous out of Hades and bringing them into heaven (Eph. 4:8, 9) (source).

Oz

 

[ewq1938]

I understand logical fallacies well, but the fact is that the word 'heaven' does NOT appear in the passage on the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16) because the ultimate destiny of believers - heaven - has not yet arrived.
Oz

Heaven has existed since the beginning. Lazarus went to heaven, also called Abraham's bosom.

Gill:

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham

 

[OzSpen]

Okay...
Just for my own curiosity, here...looking for a show of hands.
Who here believes that Jesus is, literally, God in the flesh? And who thinks He might be "a God"...but not literally God the Father.

I think it makes a HUGE difference as to what we believe about heaven and hell...

Jesus is not God the Father. He is God, one member of the Trinity.

Are you non-Trinitarian?

 

[ATP]

Heaven has existed since the beginning. Lazarus went to haven, also called Abraham's bosom.

Gill:

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham

Abraham's bosom is a fictional place. If Luke 16:19-31 wanted to clarify the third heaven they would of used the word ouranos.

 

[OzSpen]

Nope. When we die all people, believers and nonbelievers go to Hades to sleep and await the first resurrection and the great white throne.

Here I demonstrate from Scripture that soul sleep is not a biblical teaching: 'Soul sleep: A refutation'.