Where in scripture is there two graves??ewq1938 said:People don't understand there is a grave for the body and a "grave" for the soul and spirit, which is Hades. They aren't asleep.
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Where in scripture is there two graves??ewq1938 said:People don't understand there is a grave for the body and a "grave" for the soul and spirit, which is Hades. They aren't asleep.
Here is a source for Christadelphian history and doctrine. Many of their doctrines are parallel with the JWs. There is quite a group of them in my suburb of Brisbane and they operate a retirement village not far from where I live.The Barrd said:I'm curious.
What is a "Christadelphian"?
That's one I don't think I've ever heard of before...
I don't think I ever said that I think Hades means the grave. I'm pretty sure that this tale in Luke is a parable...a story told to make a point.OzSpen said:I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep...
The Barrd,
We know that hades cannot mean the grave because in the Greek NT, the word, mneema, refers to the grave or tomb.
The arguments that affirm that the OT Sheol cannot mean the grave also apply to Hades since Hades in the Greek NT and LXX (Septuagint) is equivalent to the Hebrew, Sheol. The NT's dependence on the Septuagint when quoting the OT confirms this point.
The KJV in the OT, unfortunately, translates Sheol as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times, and 'pit' 3 times. Because of this inconsistency of translation you and groups like the SDAs, Armstrongites, and JWs have taught that Sheol/Hades refers to the grave.
Brown, Driver & Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, defines Sheol as 'the underworld ... whither man descends at death' (p. 982). Keil & Delitzsch, Hebrew exegetes, state that 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death' (Commentaries on the Old Testament, vol 1, p. 338. Eerdmans).
Robert Morey in his section on 'Sheol and the Grave' gives 7 reasons 'why Sheol cannot mean the grave' (I recommend a read of this section).
For these same reasons, Hades cannot mean the grave because the Septuagint translates Sheol with Hades.
Are you open to accepting this explanation, based on the original languages?
Oz
This is a red herring of a reply. Not once in my post, to which you are referring, did I mention the story of the rich man and Lazarus. But you are off and running with where you want to go (and lots of speculation), so it's a red herring desired to divert attention from the evidence I gave that Hades is NOT the grave.The Barrd said:I don't think I ever said that I think Hades means the grave. I'm pretty sure that this tale in Luke is a parable...a story told to make a point.
Do I believe Hades refers to hell?
I know this...at the end of time, hell...along with it's nasty friend, death...will both be cast into the Lake of Fire. Whatever it is or is not, it is not permanent.
Did you know that Tartarus, (or however you spell it) was where Zeus chained the Titans?
Did you know that he also condemned Prometheus for bringing fire from heaven to mortals?
Do remember that, at the time of Jesus, the entire known world had been influenced by Greek culture. Every educated Roman had been taught by a Greek slave. Even in Jerusalem, Alexander had left his mark.
In any case, my questions remain unanswered:
Why does Lazarus insist on coming to this person's gate to be fed? Hasn't he figured out that this guy isn't going to do anything for him? Surely there are other places he could go for help? Why doesn't he hang out with the other beggars around the Temple grounds?
What's with the sores? Has he got some sort of disease? Maybe that's why the rich man doesn't want him around...
Are the dogs in the story pets, or are they wild dogs? If they're wild, why don't they just tear Lazarus apart and eat him? And if they are pets, why isn't their owner keeping them under control? I know I would not let my little dog lick some strange beggar's sores.
Which brings me to the most important question of all...
Suppose....just suppose for a minute....that some diseased beggar, ragged and covered in sores, kept showing up at your door, begging to be fed with the crumbs from your table? What would you do?
Be honest now...
Some of us might give him some leftovers, if we have any...a few might even give him some money.
But if he kept coming back, I think most of us would probably call the police....
Perhaps, Oz Span, you can tell me...
If Lazarus were to choose your house to settle in to beg, what would you do?
He's there, every day.
In his rags. With dogs licking his sores.
Every.
Single.
Day.
Be honest.
What would you do?
Somehow, I don't think explaining to him that hades doesn't mean the grave isn't going to help much...
Butch,Butch5 said:Something being condemned by modern Christianity doesn't mean anything as modern Christianity teaches errors. Modern churches are full of false doctrines, so they are not a reliable source of what is Christian.
Butch,Butch5 said:You have to define what you mean by that term. It means different things depending on who you're speaking with.
What did Jesus say to the thief, who died on a cross beside Jesus, would be at death? He didn't say that he is 'dead' (your language). Luke 23:43 (ESV) states, 'And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise'. So the thief went immediately to Paradise when he died. That's on the authority of Jesus.Butch5 said:I believe when a person dies they are dead. I don't see how a dead person can sleep.
Butch,Butch5 said:Actually, there is quite a bit in the Scriptures about this. I think it's pretty clear what they say. I think Idea that man lives on after death is an idea that comes from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.
Oz,OzSpen said:Butch,
In this thread, I presented plenty of biblical evidence of life after death. It is NOT a philosophy gained from the Greeks or Gnosticism. It can be found throughout the OT & NT.
See my articles,
Hi Oz,OzSpen said:What did Jesus say to the thief, who died on a cross beside Jesus, would be at death? He didn't say that he is 'dead' (your language). Luke 23:43 (ESV) states, 'And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise'. So the thief went immediately to Paradise when he died. That's on the authority of Jesus.
In addition, we know that those who die in faith are not dead or experiencing soul sleep because of what happened at Jesus' Transfiguration when 'there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him' (Matt 17:3 ESV). Even though Moses and Elijah had been 'dead' for hundreds of years, they were alive and were able to talk with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain.
Those who have died in faith are not 'dead', but are very much alive.
Oz
Oz,OzSpen said:Butch,
Seventh-Day Adventists state: 'Since death is a sleep, the dead will remain in a state of unconsciousness in the grave until the resurrection, when the grave (hades) gives up its dead (Rev. 20:13)' (Seventh-Day Adventists Believe - Death and Resurrection).
Oz,OzSpen said:Butch,
I do wish you would not make generalisations like this. It takes us nowhere. If you have some errors that modern Christianity teaches, which don't you start a new thread and begin to deal with it. 'Modern churches are full of false doctrines' is hyperbole and is not true in the modern church I attend.
So are you always a reliable source of what is Christian? I suggest that your false generalisation, 'Modern churches are full of false doctrines', here demonstrates that you are not a reliable source.
Oz
Hey, all the links are the same articleOzSpen said:Butch,
In this thread, I presented plenty of biblical evidence of life after death. It is NOT a philosophy gained from the Greeks or Gnosticism. It can be found throughout the OT & NT.
See my articles,
Luke 23:43 - If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross. We see in verse 42 that the thief was only interested in coming into his kingdom. The thief was not concerned about when he would be there, rather just being there was what he wanted. The correct way to read verse 43 is without punctuation. And according to scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise on the day they died because scripture states that Jesus ascended to the Father some 40 days later after His resurrection. Lastly, the terms "paradise" and "the tree of life" describes a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.OzSpen said:What did Jesus say to the thief, who died on a cross beside Jesus, would be at death? He didn't say that he is 'dead' (your language). Luke 23:43 (ESV) states, 'And he said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise'. So the thief went immediately to Paradise when he died. That's on the authority of Jesus.
In addition, we know that those who die in faith are not dead or experiencing soul sleep because of what happened at Jesus' Transfiguration when 'there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him' (Matt 17:3 ESV). Even though Moses and Elijah had been 'dead' for hundreds of years, they were alive and were able to talk with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain.
Those who have died in faith are not 'dead', but are very much alive.
Oz
And I am explaining to Oz that, if the beggar were real, as you claim, then perhaps the rich man had good reason to turn him away.OzSpen said:This is a red herring of a reply. Not once in my post, to which you are referring, did I mention the story of the rich man and Lazarus. But you are off and running with where you want to go (and lots of speculation), so it's a red herring desired to divert attention from the evidence I gave that Hades is NOT the grave.
This is a false statement. You most certainly said that 'I do not believe in Hades as anything other than the grave, where, for lack of a better explanation, the dead sleep'. So, you are stating that Hades means the grave. Or are you changing your mind now?
As for the Greek tartarus, it always referred to a place of eternal, conscious punishment in Greek literature. It cannot mean grave or non-existence. The paragon of Greek lexicons, Arndt & Gingrich (p. 813) gave the meaning: 'Tartarus, thought of by the Greeks as a subterranean place lower than Hades where divine punishment was meted out, was so regarded in Jewish apocalyptic as well (En. 20:2; Phil, Exs. 152; Jos. C. Ap. 2:240; Sib. Or. 2, 302; 4, 186)'. Arndt & Gingrich interpret Tartarus in The Sibylline Oracles [supposed prophecies from Sibyl] to refer to the place of eternal, conscious torment.
As for your view that 'at the time of Jesus, the entire known world had been influenced by Greek culture. Every educated Roman had been taught by a Greek slave. Even in Jerusalem, Alexander had left his mark', I think you have overlooked the importance of the influence of Judaism in the life of Jesus, the disciples and the early church. In The Midrash, it is recorded that the wicked are to be 'punished for generations upon generations'. Where? In 'the ceaseless retribution of the wicked' (Gen. 908); they will 'never escape' this (Num. 726) and when they are in Gehenna, they are not annihilated (Exo. 908).
As for why Lazarus goes to the gate and doesn't hang out with the other beggars, we are not told. So, speculating is a fruitless exercise. The rest of your post is subjective speculation and I will not enter into it, especially when yours is a red herring fallacy of a response.
I'm not explaining to Lazarus that Hades is not the grave. I'm explaining to The Barrd and she doesn't seem interested in dealing with the actual content I wrote about Hades not meaning the grave.
Oz
Bible_Gazer said:If the righteous are in heaven alive then they don't need a resurrection because they are not dead.
The Barrd said:I'm not saying that Jesus was influenced by Greek culture, but that the people He was teaching were....that is why He used Greek mythology in His parable.
You have yet to post scripture that speaks of spirit bodies in the third heaven. It's hollywood nonsense ewq.ewq1938 said:They don't have physical bodies. The resurrection gives them the new body.