How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[ewq1938]

Quoting a Greek scholar has no bearing on how the Scriptures use words.

Yes it does because a scholar will understand it properly. I know you aren't a Greek scholar because you aren't understanding the Greek wording. You are going by what you think the English translation means but it doesn't mean what you think it does. Pouring out your soul unto death does not mean the soul died. It means the life of the body was gone and the body died as any Greek scholar will confirm.

I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this because I know what it says and does not say.

I'll bet you don't know anything about that Greek scholar other than he wrote a book. People post commentaries and dictionary definitions as if they are Scriptures.

No, they post them as a second witness to what they are saying, using the scholars knowledge and education as a source of knowledgeable authority.

 

[ewq1938]

No, you've provided inferences.

That's your opinion.

You won't be able to provide that clear teaching that man is alive when he dies because that idea is foreign to Scripture.

Already have provided all that is needed. It is your view which is foreign to scripture.

If a man shoots another man and that man dies, is his soul also dead because he had been killed?

 

[ATP]

If a man shoots another man and that man dies, is his soul also dead because he had been killed?

Yes, that soul is dead until judgment day. You are saying that believers exist as "breath" without a body in the third heaven. That is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Butch5]

Yes it does because a scholar will understand it properly.

This is a fallacious appeal to authority. You don't know that any Scholar understands anything correctly unless you understand it correctly. That means "without" contradicitons.







I know you aren't a Greek scholar because you aren't understanding the Greek wording.

This too is fallacious and an appeal to your own authority. You statement assumes you know better than I do without having any knowledge of my education.






You are going by what you think the English translation means but it doesn't mean what you think it does. Pouring out your soul unto death does not mean the soul died. It means the life of the body was gone and the body died as any Greek scholar will confirm.

If you would have done as I suggested and studied "Nephesh" through the Scriptures you would find that the life of the body "IS" the soul "Nephesh.






I'm not going to keep going back and forth on this because I know what it says and does not say.

Do you? Why then can't your position be found in Scripture?

No, they post them as a second witness to what they are saying, using the scholars knowledge and education as a source of knowledgeable authority.

Here's the inconsistency in you reasoning, You accept the words from a book you believe was written by a scholar without any knowledge of his education. On the other hand you reject what I say without any knowledge of my education. This shows that you are simply posting what agrees with your presumed position. Your not weighing evidence. Why participate in a debate forum if all you're gonna do is present dogma?

 

[Butch5]

That's your opinion.


Already have provided all that is needed. It is your view which is foreign to scripture.

If a man shoots another man and that man dies, is his soul also dead because he had been killed?

It's not opinion. Anyone who know how to reason can see that you're drawing inferences and not dealing with clear statements from Scripture. I tell you what a man is and post Scripture explaining what a man is. You post Scripture and infer from it. You say Adam died non physically and post a passage that says "in day you eat of it you shall die". From that you "infer" that there is some other kind of death because Adam did not die physically that day. However, there are other inferences that could be drawn. And there are other inferences that make more sense.


As I said, you've provided inferences. You provided the passage about the transfiguration which says Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. First and foremost, Jesus Himself said that what they saw was a vision.

9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." (Matt. 17:9 NKJ)

That it was vision of the future can be seen from Peter's words later on.

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 NKJ)

Peter says that what they saw when they were with Him on the Holy Mount was His "Power and Coming." He was seeing the second coming of Christ. He was seeing the resurrected Moses and Elijah, not some ghosts.

So Peter explains plainly what happened on that mountain. So, there's no need to infer some doctrine that can't be found in Scripture when we have a perfectly logical explanation.

 

[lforrest]

Matt. 17:9. Has different translations, not all use the term "vision."

 

[ATP]

Matt. 17:9. Has different translations, not all use the term "vision."

The Transfiguration is a vision of the first resurrection, rapture and the feast of tabernacles Matt 17:4 NIV. Moses represents those who are dead in Christ. Elijah represents those who are alive at rapture, and Jesus represents himself in Matt 17:2 NIV. Let's take a look at the definition of transfigure to get a better idea...

verb (used with object), transfigured, transfiguring.
1. to change in outward form or appearance; transform.
2. to change so as to glorify or exalt.

Matt 16:28 NIV I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Lev 23:33-34 NIV The LORD said to Moses, 34 "Say to the Israelites: 'On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the LORD's Feast of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days.

Matt 17:1-4 NIV After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

Psalm 27:5 NIV For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a rock.

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Zeph 2:3 NIV Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

 

[Butch5]

Matt. 17:9. Has different translations, not all use the term "vision."

That's not really relevant as it's a transnational decision. The Greek texts that I checked all had "ὅραμα" which means a vision. However, we don't need to speculate because Peter explained it. He said he saw the power and coming of the Lord. Obviously the second coming hadn't occurred since Jesus was still alive and had not yet gone to the cross.

 

[ewq1938]

This is a fallacious appeal to authority. You don't know that any Scholar understands anything correctly unless you understand it correctly. That means "without" contradicitons.

No, that isn't what the appeal to authority fallacy is:

The appeal to authority is a fallacy in which a rhetor seeks to persuade not by giving evidence but by appealing to the respect people have for the famous.

I didn't cite a person by name only, appealing to how well respected they are. I quoted them giving the correct answer because they are experts in this. You are using the "false identification of fallacy fallacy"

This too is fallacious and an appeal to your own authority. You statement assumes you know better than I do without having any knowledge of my education.

No, it means I can tell you aren't a scholar by how you speak or not speak about the original language. I have read and studied under enough scholars to tell the difference.

If you would have done as I suggested and studied "Nephesh" through the Scriptures you would find that the life of the body "IS" the soul "Nephesh.

And when that soul leaves the body, the body is dead but the soul is not. Your whole error here is thinking the soul dies when the body dies.

Here's the inconsistency in you reasoning, You accept the words from a book you believe was written by a scholar without any knowledge of his education.

You are incorrect known as a "false assumption fallacy". I know of Barnes, his life and accomplishments and have read much of his work and commentaries. This is also a red herring fallacy because it isn't directly related to the topic we are discussing. Whether or not I know Barnes education is irrelevant if the quotes from him are correct, which they are.

On the other hand you reject what I say without any knowledge of my education.

I know you aren't a scholar. Are you going to claim you are? You have done some studying in the languages, perhaps completed one of those basic free courses online. That is good but you need to stop implying I am wrong because I can recognize you aren't an actual Greek or Hebrew scholar. I am not going to waste my time on this nonsense anymore. Stick to the issue and topic or I will just ignore irrelevant things.

 

[ewq1938]

It's not opinion.

It is because I support myself using scripture you just use your own logic and opinions.

From that you "infer" that there is some other kind of death because Adam did not die physically that day. However, there are other inferences that could be drawn. And there are other inferences that make more sense.

Why don't you offer any then? Adam died the day he sinned! If you can't understand that or admit that then there is no reason to continue discussing this.

First and foremost, Jesus Himself said that what they saw was a vision.

So? A vision doesn't mean a lie. It means something seen with a persons eyesight, to view it visibly.

That it was vision of the future can be seen from Peter's words later on.

Context makes clear it was a vision happening right then and there not something from the future.

16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 NKJ)

Peter says that what they saw when they were with Him on the Holy Mount was His "Power and Coming." He was seeing the second coming of Christ. He was seeing the resurrected Moses and Elijah, not some ghosts. So Peter explains plainly what happened on that mountain. So, there's no need to infer some doctrine that can't be found in Scripture when we have a perfectly logical explanation.

What Peter witnessed was not the "second coming" he said "power and coming" which is much different and is a reference to his first coming, his life which they shared for a time recorded in the gospels. They saw Moses and Elijah before the resurrection not after it.

 

[ATP]

Context makes clear it was a vision happening right then and there not something from the future.

What Peter witnessed was not the "second coming" he said "power and coming" which is much different and is a reference to his first coming, his life which they shared for a time recorded in the gospels. They saw Moses and Elijah before the resurrection not after it.

What is your knowledge on the seven feasts of the Lord.

The Transfiguration is a vision of the first resurrection, rapture and the feast of tabernacles Matt 17:4 NIV. Moses represents those who are dead in Christ. Elijah represents those who are alive at rapture, and Jesus represents himself in Matt 17:2 NIV. Let's take a look at the definition of transfigure to get a better idea...

verb (used with object), transfigured, transfiguring.
1. to change in outward form or appearance; transform.
2. to change so as to glorify or exalt.

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Matt 16:27-28 NIV For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matt 17:1-13 NIV After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

Lev 23:33-34 NIV The LORD said to Moses, 34 "Say to the Israelites: 'On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the LORD's Feast of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days.

Psalm 27:5 NIV For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his sacred tent and set me high upon a rock.

Isa 26:20 NIV Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Zeph 2:3 NIV Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

John 14:1-4 NIV "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."

 

[Butch5]

ewq1938, on 05 Aug 2015 - 5:11 PM, said:

It is because I support myself using scripture you just use your own logic and opinions.

Really? I've given you both Scripture and logic. However, if you can show that passages that says a man that dies is alive I'm all ears

Why don't you offer any then? Adam died the day he sinned! If you can't understand that or admit that then there is no reason to continue discussing this.[/quote[

I have admitted it. I also explained it. Your argument has been that Adam died that day and then you posted that Adam lived 930 years, which is it?

So? A vision doesn't mean a lie. It means something seen with a persons eyesight, to view it visibly.

Context makes clear it was a vision happening right then and there not something from the future.

We have plenty of examples of this in Scripture. Daniel saw a vision of the last days. Surely you don't think the last days were actually happening there in front of Daniel do you?

What Peter witnessed was not the "second coming" he said "power and coming" which is much different and is a reference to his first coming, his life which they shared for a time recorded in the gospels. They saw Moses and Elijah before the resurrection not after it.

This is pure speculation. If Moses and Elijah were there are His first coming I wonder why the Disciples don't mention it. Are you really saying that they got a vision of the past?

 

[Butch5]

I put my replies in red as the system won't let me post BB code at the moment.

No, that isn't what the appeal to authority fallacy is:

The appeal to authority is a fallacy in which a rhetor seeks to persuade not by giving evidence but by appealing to the respect people have for the famous.

I didn't cite a person by name only, appealing to how well respected they are. I quoted them giving the correct answer because they are experts in this. You are using the "false identification of fallacy fallacy"

It is a fallacy. You've claimed he's correct because he's a scholar. Just because someone may be a scholar it doesn't automatically mean their right.



No, it means I can tell you aren't a scholar by how you speak or not speak about the original language. I have read and studied under enough scholars to tell the difference.


It's still fallacious because you state it as a fact. Had you sad, "I think" or in "my opinion" it wouldn't have been a fallacy.




And when that soul leaves the body, the body is dead but the soul is not. Your whole error here is thinking the soul dies when the body dies.




You are incorrect known as a "false assumption fallacy". I know of Barnes, his life and accomplishments and have read much of his work and commentaries. This is also a red herring fallacy because it isn't directly related to the topic we are discussing. Whether or not I know Barnes education is irrelevant if the quotes from him are correct, which they are.

The soul doesn't leave the body, the spirit does. The body is part of the soul. The soul consists of the body and the spirit. The two combine to form a soul, Gen 2:7. If you take either part away from the soul you no longer have a soul. Water consists of hydrogen and oxygen, if you take either element away you no longer have water.



I know you aren't a scholar. Are you going to claim you are? You have done some studying in the languages, perhaps completed one of those basic free courses online. That is good but you need to stop implying I am wrong because I can recognize you aren't an actual Greek or Hebrew scholar. I am not going to waste my time on this nonsense anymore. Stick to the issue and topic or I will just ignore irrelevant things.

Yet you know nothing about me. And it's not a red herring because was challenging your evidence. You are the one who introduced a "Scholar" as evidence.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

It looks like there is some good conversation going in here. I hope that everyone has taken the time to read this first post as well. It explains the Biblical way of Salvation to those who will believe.

 

[ATP]

It looks like there is some good conversation going in here. I hope that everyone has taken the time to read this first post as well. It explains the Biblical way of Salvation to those who will believe.

Hi xfr. What do you think happens after we die..

 

[Guestman]

When our Maker, Jehovah God, created the first man and woman and placed them in the garden of Eden some 6,000 years ago, there was no need for salvation.(Gen 2:7, 18) Sin (from the Hebrew word chattath that means "to miss", in which all imperfect humans miss the mark of perfect obedience to God, 1 Kings 8:46; Rom 5:12) had not yet come into existence.


At this point in history, both Adam and Eve had the prospect of fulfilling the command to "be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is now moving on the earth".(Gen 1:28)


So what was before Adam and Eve ? The expectation that they would be the original parents that would fill the earth and in which they, along with their offspring, transform it into a paradise as was the garden of Eden as a model to follow. And if they had obeyed rather than rebelled, rejecting Satan's sly words (Gen 3:1), then this would have been becoming a seeable reality even now.


However, Adam did not listen to his Maker and this set most of his offspring on a deviant course from Jehovah God. Did this "derailing" change God's original purpose for the earth to be a paradise for those who love him ? Isaiah 55 says: "For just as the rain and the snow pour down from heaven and do not return there until they saturate the earth, making it produce and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, and it will have sure success in what I send it to do".(Isa 55:10, 11)


Isaiah 45 says that "this is what Jehovah says, the Creator of the heavens, the true God, the One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah, and there is no one else".(Isa 45:18)


Hence, God purposed from the beginning of time, when the heavens and earth were created (Gen 1:1), to have perfect "meek" humans living on the earth as their home. But with the rebellion in the garden of Eden, this changed Jehovah's direction of accomplishing it. He now brought into existence a new governmental arrangement (Gen 3:15) that would be taken from his own universal sovereignty, a subsidiary of his "mountain" that would be called a "stone".(Dan 2:34, 45; Matt 21:43, 44)


This new governmental arrangement was later identified as God's Kingdom, held in secret for some 4,000 years until Jesus unveiled it and its meaning through a series of illustrations.(Matt 13:11; Rom 16:25) Certain details were revealed some 2,300 years after the rebellion in the garden of Eden, such as the "scepter (or ruling authority) will not depart from (the tribe of) Judah".(Gen 49:10)

And Micah 5:2 identifies where this "ruler" would be born. Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) shows that "the government shall be upon his shoulder", having a number of official positions in order to achieve God's purpose for a paradise earth. Though the nation of natural Israel had the opportunity to become "a kingdom of priest and a holy nation" initially, they failed miserably.(Ex 19:6)


Jesus told the nation of Israel through its Jewish religious leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Isa 28:16), ' The stone (Jesus as the foremost member of God's Kingdom) that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone.' This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes ? This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits".(Matt 21:42, 43)


Thus, God's Kingdom or heavenly government would consist of not just fleshly Jews, but of people "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" that would be "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth".(Rev 5:9, 10)


Why priestly functions ? Because of sin. In order for sin or our flawed condition to be removed (Isa 25:7, 8), it is necessary for a priestly kingship, like that of Melchizedek.(Gen 14:18) Imperfect individuals cannot live forever, so there is the need for a ransom that serves as the basis for the removal of sin, to buy back what Adam lost.(Ps 49:7, 8) This one had to become a "curse" and carry that load to death on a torture stake.(Deut 21:22, 23) He had to serve as a "guilt offering" for obedient mankind.(Isa 53:10) Jesus Christ came to be that "curse" and "guilt offering".(Gal 3:13)


The number of 144,000 imperfect individuals (Rev 7:4; 14:1) have been chosen from among those who are obedient to Jehovah, along with Jesus Christ, to serve as "kings and priests unto God".(Rev 1:6, KJV) During Jesus millennial reign, they apply Jesus perfect blood in behalf of those who are to live on the paradise earth, assisting them to attain to perfection in both body and mind.(Rev 22:1-3; Heb 9:22)


However, only those who pass the final test at the end of Jesus "thousand year" reign" (Rev 20:7-10) will enjoy life as Psalms 37 says: "But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace......forever".(Ps 37:11, 29)

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Hi xfr. What do you think happens after we die..

After we die we either go to heaven, where God lives and His angels and people or we go to hell, which is an eternal prison for those who reject God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. There is no in between.

 

[ATP]

After we die we either go to heaven, where God lives and His angels and people or we go to hell, which is an eternal prison for those who reject God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. There is no in between.

So you believe we sleep until the first resurrection and great white throne.

 

[ewq1938]

After we die we either go to heaven, where God lives and His angels and people or we go to hell, which is an eternal prison for those who reject God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. There is no in between.

Hell is destroyed before the eternity so it's not "eternal".

Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The lake of fire is eternal it's also called "hell" but it's not where a person goes after dying.

 

[Butch5]

After we die we either go to heaven, where God lives and His angels and people or we go to hell, which is an eternal prison for those who reject God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. There is no in between.

Are you aware that these isn't a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die?