I ask the Trinitarians and the Jehovah's Witnesses...

[Pearl]

If the Son of God already existed before his incarnation, then he must have already been perfect, but how do you explain this passage? :
And the Messiah increased in wisdom and in greatness and in favor with God and men.

It seems that he was not perfect but he became perfect with time.

One more question: Did the Son of God learn to speak, or did he already speak as a baby?

Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

That passage is speaking of Jesus as a young boy of about twelve. It does not say he wasn't perfect, just that his wisdom and stature were not fully mature but grew as it does in all children.

And I think the question about whether he could speak as a baby is ridiculous and a waste of time.

 

[janc]

That passage is speaking of Jesus as a young boy of about twelve. It does not say he wasn't perfect, just that his wisdom and stature were not fully mature but grew as it does in all children.

If his wisdom was not fully mature and therefore his wisdom had to grow, then he was not perfect but became perfect.

And I think the question about whether he could speak as a baby is ridiculous and a waste of time.

When Trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Messiah existed before creation, then the question is not at all ridiculous. For if this were the case, then he must have been perfect and must have spoken as an infant. But if he had to learn this, then he could not have existed before, otherwise the Messiah was an actor. An actor who pretended to be a fool.

 

[Cooper]

If his wisdom was not fully mature and therefore his wisdom had to grow, then he was not perfect but became perfect.

When Trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Messiah existed before creation, then the question is not at all ridiculous. For if this were the case, then he must have been perfect and must have spoken as an infant. But if he had to learn this, then he could not have existed before, otherwise the Messiah was an actor. An actor who pretended to be a fool.

O'dear me.

 

[Pearl]

If his wisdom was not fully mature and therefore his wisdom had to grow, then he was not perfect but became perfect.

When Trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Messiah existed before creation, then the question is not at all ridiculous. For if this were the case, then he must have been perfect and must have spoken as an infant. But if he had to learn this, then he could not have existed before, otherwise the Messiah was an actor. An actor who pretended to be a fool.

John 1 New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[janc]

John 1 New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word is not really a person, but the utterance of the mind of God.
The Spirit of God was in the Messiah and uttered His thoughts. The Messiah said that I am not the one who speaks, but the Father who is in me, and this is what it means that the Word of God has become flesh.

 

[Cooper]

The Word is not really a person, but the utterance of the mind of God.
The Spirit of God was in the Messiah and uttered His thoughts. The Messiah said that I am not the one who speaks, but the Father who is in me, and this is what it means that the Word of God has become flesh.

You say, "The Word is not really a person, but the utterance of the mind of God.
The Spirit of God was in the Messiah and uttered His thoughts. The Messiah said that I am not the one who speaks, but the Father who is in me, and this is what it means that the Word of God has become flesh."

So, the Spirit of God was in the Messiah, the Father was in the Messiah and the Messiah spoke the words of the Father.

What you have there is God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit in Christ. The three persons of the Trinity in Christ. All three in One.
.

 

[101G]

The Word is not really a person, but the utterance of the mind of God.

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

God's OWN ARM?, is this his mind? lets see. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." so GOS'S ARM is a HE .... Uh O.

so God's MIND is a he, and a HIM? by the way Jesus is his own MIND, called "WISDOM". and this WISDOM is called the MIND OF CHRIST. so Jesus the Christ is the MIND of God who is God himself. he have a MIND... HIS OWN. so this notion that Jesus is someone's mind of God no he is GOD, and God have a MIND OF HIS OWN. nor is he a thought in someone mind. no JESUS is the master plannner. he's all that and a bag of ... chips....

PICJAG.

 

[Cooper]

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

God's OWN ARM?, is this his mind? lets see. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." so GOS'S ARM is a HE .... Uh O.

so God's MIND is a he, and a HIM? by the way Jesus is his own MIND, called "WISDOM". and this WISDOM is called the MIND OF CHRIST. so Jesus the Christ is the MIND of God who is God himself. he have a MIND... HIS OWN. so this notion that Jesus is someone's mind of God no he is GOD, and God have a MIND OF HIS OWN. nor is he a thought in someone mind. no JESUS is the master plannner. he's all that and a bag of ... chips....

PICJAG.

I wish you would keep it simple and to the point, thank you.
.

 

[Pearl]

The Word is not really a person, but the utterance of the mind of God.
The Spirit of God was in the Messiah and uttered His thoughts. The Messiah said that I am not the one who speaks, but the Father who is in me, and this is what it means that the Word of God has become flesh.

Jesus was and still is the Word who was with God and is God and became flesh. But if you don't want to believe that it's ok. You can believe what you choose.

 

[DNB]

GOD........................................................................MAN

He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2, 11; 14:33)........................He worshiped the Father (John 17)

He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)...................He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5)

He is prayed to (Acts 7:59)........................................He prayed to the Father (John 17)

He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)..........................He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)

He knows all things (John 21:17)................................He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)

He gives eternal life (John 10:28)...............................He died (Rom. 5:8)

All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)............He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)

As God, which he was before he came down from heaven, he can do all things. Do not disregard His Old Testament nature while we live in a period of grace, neither must we mock his humanity.

All authority and power was bestowed upon Jesus from the Father, so that due to this, there becomes a very fine line between him and God. Being seated at the right-hand side of God, above all other creatures of the universe, makes Jesus exceptional. By the verses that you quoted, you are misconstruing Jesus' ordained glory, with his perceived intrinsic authority and dominion. You are missing the point of God's son, you will not accept him unless that he is God, and therefore, you have taken away the true and inherent meaning of son. For to you, the only thing that separates the 3 persons of the trinity, is their names.
But, as a true son and created being, God so loved Jesus that he put under his feet all judgement and authority. This is the unthreatened and uninhibited love of God. Not God seating Himself at His own right-hand.

 

[DNB]

It is true that you can declare what I described as wrong. What maybe you have not understood because only the elect will, the reality is God coming into the life of another.

The basis of this is not logic or reasonableness, but love. And God can limit himself, because that is His choice, as is creating this world. If you choose another way, and do not want to listen to Him, that is your choice.

I follow Jesus because I love Him. Jesus put it that the pure in heart will see Him. God bless you

By the way this is all the testimony of scripture as well as my life. I am not hurt by your dismissing my words, it is just the nature of the gospel.

Because it is absurd, it demands that you have exegeted the Scriptures incorrectly. This is the point. Don't try and glorify your ignorance of such an implausible phenomenon, by calling it a divine mystery. It's nonsense from start to finish. Nowhere in the Bible are any trinitarian terms found. No one was ever saved using a trinitarian formula. No patriarch or any major character in the Bible, prayed to a triune God. The Atonement becomes ludicrous and disgraceful having God, the victim, pay the price for the culprit. God cannot propitiate Himself, nor does He give man hope and faith, by raising Himself from the dead.
Jesus is glorified, of course, all because of his love for the Father. This is not something that God can do, nor can such a relationship have any significant meaning.
You've misread the text.

 

[DNB]

Its a legal thing.

Very much so. A covenantal issue.

 

[DNB]

You said God has only raised himself from the dead. Would you like to explain?

What's to explain? If Jesus is God, who cannot die or remain in the grave since he is intrinsically divine, then all that occurred at Calvary was God raising Himself from the dead. There could not be any threat of Him remaining there since He upholds the universe, even both Heaven and Hell. And thus, no sacrifice was made. Obviously.

 

[Cooper]

What's to explain? If Jesus is God, who cannot die or remain in the grave since he is intrinsically divine, then all that occurred at Calvary was God raising Himself from the dead. There could not be any threat of Him remaining there since He upholds the universe, even both Heaven and Hell. And thus, no sacrifice was made. Obviously.

You do not believe Jesus is God, so according to you Jesus cannot raise himself from the dead.

Also, your claim no sacrifice was made is heritacle.
.

 

[mjrhealth]

You do not believe Jesus is God, so according to you Jesus cannot raise himself from the dead.
.

Act_2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act_2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act_3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Act_4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act_10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

 

[Cooper]

Act_2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act_2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act_3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Act_4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act_10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Do you not believe in the Trinity and all what it means?

I believe Jesus is Creator God i.e. the Father, in the flesh. They are ONE. What one does the other does.

David prophesied this regarding the resurrection in the Psalms, I would show you, but I am changing internet provider today and will be going off-line sometime, so rather than make a lengthy post, I will simply say that as Father and Son are One there is no contradiction in Peters account in Acts.

 

[mjrhealth]

Do you not believe in the Trinity?
.

No it has nothing to do with slvation and God wont beat me over the head if I dont, thats just mens religion and mens doctrines.

 

[Cooper]

No it has nothing to do with slvation and God wont beat me over the head if I dont, thats just mens religion and mens doctrines.

Well, I believe Jesus is the Father on earth according to scripture, see below for example. So please do not use Peters account in Acts to deny the divinity of Jesus, he did that to appeal to the Jews. Basically, those who deny the Son deny the Father! So watch your head because salvation is only through the living God Christ Jesus. He is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (John 1:3).

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6).

 

[mjrhealth]

Basically, those who deny the Son deny the Father!

Whos denying the Son, that is you forcing your "opinion" on everyone, can you even comprehend what would happen if God died, ?? are you so ignorant. And salvation is in Christ are you rewriting scripture.

 

[Cooper]

Whos denying the Son, that is you forcing your "opinion" on everyone, can you even comprehend what would happen if God died, ?? are you so ignorant. And salvation is in Christ are you rewriting scripture.

You said you do not believe in the Trinitarian teaching that Jesus is God.