I believe one who deliberately sins in not a Christian.

[IBeMe]

...

 

[aspen]

Guess there is no such thing as a Christian.....

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : Salvation is all about Jesus.

But you say that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law.

You try to convince us that we shouldn't do what Jesus says to please Him.

It's OK if we do it by accent, or something.

Have you figured out why they call the Gospels, "The Gospels", yet?

mjrhealth : No ibeme you are trying to serve two masters, which is it Jesus or the Law, what is His comandment, "LOVE". if you had a loved one, would you beat them up, would you steal from them, would you murder them, if you truly loved them you would not because of Love, not because of any LAWS, dont you understand, the LAW was all about the flesh, it was about man trying to save himself, in this you have already failed. Jesus paid the price"once" He will not die for you again, are you going to nail Him back up on that cross again, christians do it every year.

I read what you say...

You're trying to convince me to reject Jesus's words.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I read what Jesus says...

I can see it's not very smart to reject His words.

I'm going to do what Jesus says because you seem so mixed up that you think Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law.

You talk about "love", but you reject God's definition of love.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You try to make it sound like there's something dirty about God's commandments.

You're trying to convince me that you're so wonderful that it's beneath you to even think about God's commandments.

But, I'm just going to believe Jesus and do what He says.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I trust what Jesus says, but you're sounding pretty silly.

.

.

 

[williemac]

But you say that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law.

You try to convince us that we shouldn't do what Jesus says to please Him.


Have you figured out why they call the Gospels, "The Gospels", yet?


.

The bible says Jesus was teaching the law. Jesus was the one who said He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. But what we know about the law is not hidden, but comes from scripture. And when it is being preached, we can recognize it. How many times have I shown you where Paul explained the purpose if the law? And how many times have I shown you this purpose being manifest through the ministry of Jesus at various times?

"You try to convince us that we shouldn't do what Jesus says to please Him."

I do, do I? Prove it. Show me where I said that.

"Have you figured out why they call the Gospels, "The Gospels", yet?"

We have been told what the actual gospel is. It is not 'rocket surgery' ^_^ . The gospel (good news) is the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Paul said that it is the power of God to salvation, to all who believe it. Just because the four books called "the gospels" were written about the coming of Jesus, and His time on earth, does not give us the license to invent our own version of what the actual gospel of salvation is.

Jesus said, "if you love Me, keep My commandments". How does that wind up in your world as.."if you want to be saved, keep My commandments"? You quote one thing, but you are really saying something quite different than what you quote. When it comes to the agenda of getting saved, His commandment for that purpose is..."believe on Me". He actually also said that if one tries to save his own life, he will lose it. When you begin to unveil His entire life and ministry, you begin to see a much larger and more wonderful picture than merely a command to behave yourself to get to heaven. Your tunnel vision is most disturbing. You are preaching anything but "good news".

O, wait. Pardon me. You do preach good news. But it only lasts long enough to discover that grace through faith is temporary. They only get us in the door. After that we stay put through our good behavior. In fact, my good behavior is part and parcel of my salvation from the beginning, according to your version of salvation. So,its all about me then is it?

Funny thing, this is no different than what was preached from the beginning, before.."the gospels" . The only thing that changed is the sacrifices. Instead of them being done for the people on an ongoing basis, the sacrifice of Jesus now only applies one time. Then after that it is over. (according to you) A better covenant? Better promises? I bet you have some land for sale west of California, too.

 

[KingJ]

God is God.
We not God.
God say do, we do.

See how simple it is?

Classic .

The bible says Jesus was teaching the law. Jesus was the one who said He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. But what we know about the law is not hidden, but comes from scripture. And when it is being preached, we can recognize it. How many times have I shown you where Paul explained the purpose if the law? And how many times have I shown you this purpose being manifest through the ministry of Jesus at various times?

"You try to convince us that we shouldn't do what Jesus says to please Him."

I do, do I? Prove it. Show me where I said that.

"Have you figured out why they call the Gospels, "The Gospels", yet?"

We have been told what the actual gospel is. It is not 'rocket surgery' ^_^ . The gospel (good news) is the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Paul said that it is the power of God to salvation, to all who believe it. Just because the four books called "the gospels" were written about the coming of Jesus, and His time on earth, does not give us the license to invent our own version of what the actual gospel of salvation is.

Jesus said, "if you love Me, keep My commandments". How does that wind up in your world as.."if you want to be saved, keep My commandments"? You quote one thing, but you are really saying something quite different than what you quote. When it comes to the agenda of getting saved, His commandment for that purpose is..."believe on Me". He actually also said that if one tries to save his own life, he will lose it. When you begin to unveil His entire life and ministry, you begin to see a much larger and more wonderful picture than merely a command to behave yourself to get to heaven. Your tunnel vision is most disturbing. You are preaching anything but "good news".

O, wait. Pardon me. You do preach good news. But it only lasts long enough to discover that grace through faith is temporary. They only get us in the door. After that we stay put through our good behavior. In fact, my good behavior is part and parcel of my salvation from the beginning, according to your version of salvation. So,its all about me then is it?

Funny thing, this is no different than what was preached from the beginning, before.."the gospels" . The only thing that changed is the sacrifices. Instead of them being done for the people on an ongoing basis, the sacrifice of Jesus now only applies one time. Then after that it is over. (according to you) A better covenant? Better promises? I bet you have some land for sale west of California, too.

Willie you must try grasp that God is impartial. God shows no preference to those in the NT over those in OT. It is not easier to be saved today. The requirements to come to God and stay with God have always been the same. If sealed salvation was as simple as merely getting on our knees and confessing our belief in Jesus, everyone OT would have a valid gripe with God. All who believe this can be forgiven as what Jesus did is indeed good news. But if we just apply a little lateral thought / read more scripture we find that.....One can only believe Jesus is Lord if the Holy Spirit reveals it to us 1 Cor 12:3. The Holy Spirit only reveals this to us if we draw near to God James 4:8 as He searches our hearts and minds Jer 17:10. We draw near to God on His terms which have been un-changing since the beginning of time! Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17, 1 Cor 11:31 and Phil 2:12.

God's law OT encompassed Moses's law as well as Psalm 51:17. Hence you are right to quote ''David was a man after God's heart'' and that nobody OT and NT passed the law. So the question becomes, what did those who were in Abraham's bosom do that those on the other side of the divide did not? I believe the answer is as simple as Matt 16:24, 1 Cor 11:31, Psalm 51:17, James 4:6 and Rom 12:9.

Conclusion. Nobody is saved by obeying the literal law. We all fall short. All are saved by having a heart after God's heart. Continuing in mortal sins is not having a heart after God's heart. God's heart hates sin and loves righteousness.

So your OSAS view is not that bad, as long as you believe in OSAS if truly saved. Likewise my Arminian view is not bad as long as I believe we need to make 'shipwreck' of our salvation.

This kind of discussion must always be friendly. We are not that different in beliefs even though it appears that way .

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : The bible says Jesus was teaching the law.

False statement.
Show me a scripture to back that up.

I've already showed you absolute proof.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

Jesus, The Word of God, says the Mosaic Law ended when John's ministry began.

You try to defiantly contradict the words of Jesus ... futile endeavor.

williemac : Jesus was the one who said He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

How did Jesus fulfill it?

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus didn't do away with the righteousness of the law.

God's commandments are His definition of righteousness, what's right and wrong.

The Mosaic Law was given to the children of Israel to teach, and help them keep, the righteousness of God, God's commandments.

Jesus came and died so that we could do what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Don't overlook the truth part.

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by making us able to worship the Father in spirit and in truth, by walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Results = no condemnation

There's only one way we can walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

We're going to have to sell out.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

williemac : But what we know about the law is not hidden, but comes from The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached scripture. And when it is being preached, we can recognize it.

try to twist that scripture away?

Won't work ... here's what the Mosaic Law looks like.

And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Nobody could keep the Mosaic Law now, if they wanted to ... We don't know who Aaron's sons are.

williemac : How many times have I shown you where Paul explained the purpose if the law? And how many times have I shown you this purpose being manifest through the ministry of Jesus at various times?

Never!

You pretend that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law and that Paul did away with the words of Jesus.

williemac : "You try to convince us that we shouldn't do what Jesus says to please Him."

I do, do I? Prove it. Show me where I said that.

Re-read what you say here.

"The bible says Jesus was teaching the law."

Did you forget you wrote that silly bit of nonsense?

williemac : Jesus said, "if you love Me, keep My commandments". How does that wind up in your world as.."if you want to be saved, keep My commandments"?

Pathetically, you continuously resort to these childish straw-man tactics.

We're saved by faith in Jesus.

Jesus, who is The Word of God, says; "if you love Me, keep My commandments."

If you don't like those words, take it up with the author.

williemac : You quote one thing, but you are really saying something quite different than what you quote.

How did you discover my secret message? ... Did you play it backwards? ... Are you on some kind of medication?

williemac : When it comes to the agenda of getting saved, His commandment for that purpose is..."believe on Me".

Yep!

But He also says; If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In fact, Jesus says a lot of things.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

We can't neglect the doeth.

williemac : He actually also said that if one tries to save his own life, he will lose it.

You're making it clear that we can loose our salvation based on how we live our Christian life.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Indeed, faith without works is dead.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

williemac : When you begin to unveil His entire life and ministry, you begin to see a much larger and more wonderful picture than merely a command to behave yourself to get to heaven.

True, we have to do more than keep the commandments.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But Jesus goes on to say; If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So, we have to lay down our life and follow Jesus ... walk in the Word ... not the flesh.

williemac : Your tunnel vision is most disturbing. You are preaching anything but "good news".

Jesus recommends tunnel vision.

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

williemac : O, wait. Pardon me. You do preach good news. But it only lasts long enough to discover that grace through faith is temporary.

Why do you want to go back into sin?

williemac : So,its all about me then is it?

You need to overcome that ... crucify the flesh and follow the Spirit.

williemac :
Funny thing, this is no different than what was preached from the beginning, before.."the gospels" . The only thing that changed is the sacrifices. Instead of them being done for the people on an ongoing basis, the sacrifice of Jesus now only applies one time. Then after that it is over. (according to you) A better covenant? Better promises? I bet you have some land for sale west of California, too.

Not too happy with God's plan if salvation?

A whole lot changed ... But this didn't change.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Some folks are really happy and think it's great.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


.

 

[williemac]

False statement.
Show me a scripture to back that up.

I've already showed you absolute proof.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

Jesus, The Word of God, says the Mosaic Law ended when John's ministry began.

You try to defiantly contradict the words of Jesus ... futile endeavor.


How did Jesus fulfill it?

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus didn't do away with the righteousness of the law.

God's commandments are His definition of righteousness, what's right and wrong.

The Mosaic Law was given to the children of Israel to teach, and help them keep, the righteousness of God, God's commandments.

Jesus came and died so that we could do what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Don't overlook the truth part.

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by making us able to worship the Father in spirit and in truth, by walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Results = no condemnation

There's only one way we can walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

We're going to have to sell out.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


try to twist that scripture away?

Won't work ... here's what the Mosaic Law looks like.

And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Nobody could keep the Mosaic Law now, if they wanted to ... We don't know who Aaron's sons are.


Never!

You pretend that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law and that Paul did away with the words of Jesus.


Re-read what you say here.

"The bible says Jesus was teaching the law."

Did you forget you wrote that silly bit of nonsense?



Pathetically, you continuously resort to these childish straw-man tactics.

We're saved by faith in Jesus.

Jesus, who is The Word of God, says; "if you love Me, keep My commandments."

If you don't like those words, take it up with the author.



How did you discover my secret message? ... Did you play it backwards? ... Are you on some kind of medication?


Yep!

But He also says; If ye love me, keep my commandments.

In fact, Jesus says a lot of things.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

We can't neglect the doeth.



You're making it clear that we can loose our salvation based on how we live our Christian life.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Indeed, faith without works is dead.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


True, we have to do more than keep the commandments.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But Jesus goes on to say; If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So, we have to lay down our life and follow Jesus ... walk in the Word ... not the flesh.


Jesus recommends tunnel vision.

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Why do you want to go back into sin?


You need to overcome that ... crucify the flesh and follow the Spirit.


Not too happy with God's plan if salvation?

A whole lot changed ... But this didn't change.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Some folks are really happy and think it's great.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


.

My friend, you are involved in a whole lot of double talk. You claim that the law ended with the ministry of Jesus but then contradict yourself by saying the righteousness of the law didn't change or end. And then you somehow manage to make this about the so called Mosaic law. Got news for you. There is no such law mentioned in scripture. However, to reply to your claim, Rom.10:4 states the Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe. Believe it or not.

And no, I didn't forget what I said. I said that Jesus preached the law. This does not translate to my saying that we should not obey Jesus. That is your own imagination talking. As I have indicated in many of my replies, this is not about what we do, it is about why.

But to reply to the repeated quote of yours...:if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" . Tell me how this fits with "not of works, not of yourselves, lest any man should boast" Only one of those can apply. They cannot both fit together in salvation's plan. They are opposite. Unless you are going to somehow invent that keeping commandments is not works.

Did Jesus say what He said? Yes. Did it change? You say no. I say that the bible ...His word...says it did. God Himself promised a new covenant. Change cannot possibly be something you can't wrap your head around. Can it?

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : My friend, you are involved in a whole lot of double talk.

It might appear that way too someone who thinks Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law.

Have you figured out why they put the Gospels in the New Testament yet?

williemac : You claim that the law ended with the ministry of Jesus ...

Slow down, you're starting to get confused with what your doctrine is.

That's what you were claiming.

I just quoted Jesus ...

The law and the prophets were until John ...

williemac : ... but then contradict yourself by saying the righteousness of the law didn't change or end.

Your Bible doesn't have this scripture in it?

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

williemac : And then you somehow manage to make this about the so called Mosaic law. Got news for you. There is no such law mentioned in scripture.

Let me dig out my trusty old dictionary and help you out.

Mosaic law: 'The ancient law of the Hebrews, attributed to Moses and contained in the Pentateuch. Also called Law of Moses.'

williemac : Rom.10:4 states the Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe. Believe it or not.

Of course, we are made righteous by faith in Jesus, not by works of the Mosaic Law.

Paul also warns in Romans; For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

williemac : And no, I didn't forget what I said. I said that Jesus preached the law.

Oh yeah, you say a ton of unscriptural stuff.

Jesus said that the Mosaic Law ended when John's ministry began, and that He was teaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

You lack of seriousness has never been in question.

williemac : This does not translate to my saying that we should not obey Jesus.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

But you say if we do what Jesus says to do, for the reason He gives, we're following Satan.

In fact, you claim that Jesus is teaching us to follow Satan.

williemac : As I have indicated in many of my replies, this is not about what we do, it is about why.

Which is the opposite of what Jesus says.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

williemac : But to reply to the repeated quote of yours...:if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" . Tell me how this fits with "not of works, not of yourselves, lest any man should boast" Only one of those can apply. They cannot both fit together in salvation's plan. They are opposite. Unless you are going to somehow invent that keeping commandments is not works.

Keeping God's commandments isn't works of the Mosaic Law.

This is what the Mosaic Law looks like.

And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:

When you don't see Jesus saying to do anything like that, it should be clear that you're really confused about the Mosaic Law and the commandments of God.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

These folks aren't confused about the commandments of God, and rejoice to keep them.

williemac : Did Jesus say what He said? Yes. Did it change? You say no. I say that the bible ...His word...says it did.

Another thing you're confused about.

For I am the LORD, I change not; ...

.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Just read this on another forum, where a post gets to the point of "The issue is reality!"

Well done, I agree, it's really an issue of reality. Examining the situation of a rising counterfeit and comparing it to true Christianity John wrote his epistles in response to the gnostic corruption of The Gospel, that was a real problem back then, and still is today. Today they call it "hyper-grace" which is a form of modern gnosticism and NOT Genuine Christianity. They have a legalistic understanding of grace that thinks once someone is saved they can act like someone that has no relationship with Jesus. The problem of that reasoning is, they think of pleasing Jesus as a form of bondage, not as a joy. Why? --> still being positionally in the old covenant, and having an unregenerated heart.



Certain Hallmark's of Genuine Christianity by Paris Reidhead

A hallmark of Christianity is that mark of genuineness that cannot be imitated. True Christianity, says the Apostle John, has certain hallmarks - certain evidences of eternal life. He lists them throughout his first epistle as follows:

1) walk in the light,
2) keep His commandments,
3) love your brother,
4) love not the world,
5) abide in Him,
6) do not commit sin,
7) love one another,
8) receive the witness of the Spirit,
9) overcome the world,
10) dwell in the life that is in the Son.

If these ten evidences of eternal life are not current in the Christian’s life, there is reason to question the believer’s position in Christ Jesus.

Whosoever is born of God has been awakened and convicted by the Holy Spirit and has been brought to repentance. That person has savingly received Christ and has the witness of the Holy Spirit of that event. That person has become a new creation. The time involved is not the issue. The issue is reality! We are begotten by the agency of His Spirit, confirming the change of our purpose from pleasing self to pleasing God.

 

[williemac]

Keeping God's commandments isn't works of the Mosaic Law.

This is what the Mosaic Law looks like.

The law of Moses is that which came down with Him from Mount Sinai. Other laws were added, but Moses was the mediator of all the law, including the ten commandments. It is merely slight of hand to mention part of it as though the rest is not included.

 

[aspen]

The Mosaic Law was supposed to be internalized, but over the centuries it became an external exercise, which was exploited by leadership at the Temple. Jesus fulfilled the Law by re-aligning it back to an internal law. No longer was it okay to lip sync the law, we are now required to be transformed by it.

 

[williemac]

The Mosaic Law was supposed to be internalized, but over the centuries it became an external exercise, which was exploited by leadership at the Temple. Jesus fulfilled the Law by re-aligning it back to an internal law. No longer was it okay to lip sync the law, we are now required to be transformed by it.

Baloney. That is just an opinion. It was not externalized over the centuries. It was external the moment it came down from Mount Sinai. It is called a fleshly commandment (Gal.4:22-25)

We are not transformed by the law. How ridiculous. We are transformed by way of becoming a new creation. There was never Any law given that could produce life (Gal.3:21) Where are you getting this anyway? The law is placed in our hearts through the new birth.

But here is a passage from Duet.30:
11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
15“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.

Interestingly, Paul quotes from this passage, but makes a modification of it.

Rom.10: 4..."..Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes"
5For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”


Note the similarities and also the differences between these two passages. Did Paul misquote Deuteronomy? No. He had a revelation from God that things changed. He applied the same speech to faith that was previously used for works. But I fear that the self righteous would rather justify themselves through the works of the law than recognize that things changed and they are now required to humble themselves to receive the free gift of life by grace through faith. Paul asked the Galatians.."who has bewitched you?" We would never attribute bewitching to God, would we? Therefore when I suggested to IBeMe that Satan is he who wants us to justify ourselves through the law, he since accuses me of saying if we do it we are following Satan by obeying Jesus. On the contrary. Jesus does not want us to justify ourselves. If He does, then all of Paul's letters to the contrary are invalid and should be torn out of our bibles.

 

[aspen]

The word became flesh - Jesus is the word of God - so is the Law. Jesus is the living, breathing Law. We are called to be like Christ and live the Word. Christ didn't just fulfill the Law, He IS the fulfillment of the Law.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Yep, and so are we - IF we are a son of God.

Found another post, even more comprehensive than the last:

"The problem is many consider the Christian life by grace as living by 'NO LAW' or lawless."

And it's always hidden in clever dogmas, that once you ask to explain and define, deflate to nothing because there is nothing solid just phrases without meaning. We should always ask what is meant by these phrases. Just because someone says "the law of Christ" or "walking in the Spirit" does not mean they have any clear biblical understanding what these things mean. These words do have a real meaning and real content, it's not talking about a spirit without content or law. Higher law does not mean "no law". Jesus could help our understanding, but he is now divided into a presumed OT-Jesus talking to "Jews" and NT-Jesus, that "never really talked to us" because His real teaching started after his resurrection. And if someone points out his exact words after his resurrection you will still reject them, because you already have a different opinion. That is a bad situation, Jesus basically can teach you nothing, you prefer another Jesus.

One reason for that is as earlier mentioned by just-in, Rom 8:2, It is talking about the law of sin and death, what is however not about God's law. Both are not identical, one states that if we sin we shall die, the other are instructions in righteousness, as expressed in the commandments. Which when rightly understood keep us from slipping from our path WHILE walking in the Spirit. Godly instructions for a 'lazy mind' or an 'inventive mind' that is weak enough to slip without guidance. The Holy Spirit will remind us about that, a religious spirit will not. You cannot forget to repent of your sins, except you have a religious spirit, then you're the one in charge of all of that.

Psalms 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

That's new covenant reality already ahead of time

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Same here, he does not imply that the "the law of sin and death" is within his heart, he loves to do God's will as in 'His instructions in righteousness', because that is what people do that walk in the Spirit. That is the reason for the whole creation of humanity. A people that are a new creation in whom the Spirit of God lives. That of course not violates God's law, God does not oppose himself.

Since people in the old covenant cannot understand that reality, they will fight it till the cows come home, trying to understand the new covenant with their mind, not with their heart. Unless of course the speech of their mouth directly relates to what's written on their heart, i.e. missing of God's law is a sign for being in the old covenant, not born-again yet. That's where the reasoning comes from, the religious spirit doesn't understand that reality, and will never evolve into The Holy Spirit that actually loves His own instructions of our Father that is in heaven because it helps us believers to not slip into deceptions of the lawless one.

The lawless spirit does not accept such instructions and guidance because it is believed to be bondage and restricts personal freedom. He does not accept the freedom to do what is good either. It's absurd reasoning if you truly love Jesus. The spirit behind it is a spirit of lawlessness and rebellion. It's self-sufficient, not looking for or accepting a higher authority, everything in that regard is just lip-service. The lawless ones will not accept God's will or Spirit to rule over them or guide them. A spirit of 'undefinable content' is preferred, because there is enough room to do whatever suits YOUR will. Of course your steps will slide over time, we are not our own little gods that are establishing our own kingdoms.

Second opinion from a different view as found on file:

quote "Now everybody today seems to think that law of sin and death that we have been set free from, is the 10 Commandments. Is the 10 commandments the law of sin and death? NO! Absolutely not! The 10 commandments is NOT the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? The law of sin and death is found in Romans chapter 6 verse 23 ... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is death. That is the law of sin and death. The soul that sinneth it shall die. (Study Ezekiel 18) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That is the law of sin and death. Now, we are going to get set free from that law of sin and death, IF we stop walking after the flesh and start walking after the Spirit. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Faith is to know what God said, and to walk in it. To know what God said, and not walk in it, is rebellion. You see how faith is really obedience.

Quote: "Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if ... IF...stop sign....what is the condition, there is a qualification or stipulation before I can presume this .... IF means something important. UNLESS you meet the condition you better NOT assume, believe, or presume you may have it without meeting the condition. You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, IF, IF you meet the condition. What is the condition? IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell IN you. That is the only way. You have the Spirit of God or you have a deceiving spirit. If you believe once saved always saved you have a deceiving spirit. You can be delivered, but, first you have to be able to HEAR that you have picked up a deceiving religious spirit. Most today will not have ears to hear the Spirit of Truth. The deceiving spirit does not empower you to keep the commandments, the deceiving spirit will give you excuses and rationalizations for violating the commandments. The Holy Spirit causes you to keep and love the Royal Law, and the deceiving spirit causes you to excuse and rationalize your disregard for the Royal Law. The deceiving spirit will make you think you are very spiritual when you are carnal."

Compare and test against 1 John and 2 John. Gnostics of old had the same problem as religious people today, and didn't know who is correct on these issues. John told them how to discern truth and to overcome their head knowledge.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. --- If we think we are a son of God and do not love, keep and fulfill His commandments, we are deceived and NOT a son of God. We know we are a son of God when that Spirit of Holiness is causing us, and helping us, and empowering us to stop sinning. Then we are really getting transformed, not just positionally, but also practically. Or "in real life".

 

[aspen]

great post tropical

 

[williemac]

quote "Now everybody today seems to think that law of sin and death that we have been set free from, is the 10 Commandments. Is the 10 commandments the law of sin and death? NO! Absolutely not! The 10 commandments is NOT the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death? The law of sin and death is found in Romans chapter 6 verse 23 ... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is death. That is the law of sin and death. The soul that sinneth it shall die. (Study Ezekiel 18) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That is the law of sin and death. Now, we are going to get set free from that law of sin and death, IF we stop walking after the flesh and start walking after the Spirit. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The law of sin and death is that death is the wages of sin. Simple enough. However, as you have stated, not everyone understands what walking in the Spirit actually is. Your version is that it is not sinning. So then, lets read it that way. You are saying that we are free from the law of sin and death if we stop sinning. Really? Sorry, but that is not the correct definition of walking in the Spirit. Rom.8:1 has the word "therefore" in it. It is a conclusion to what was previously said. And in Rom.7, we find that Paul was in agreement with the law. And furthermore, it was because of this agreement with it that any sin in him was not attributed to his identity. Thus, he is talking about having the correct mindset.
This is verified in 8:5, where Paul identifies those who live according to the Spirit have their minds set on the things of the Spirit. The whole subject is about a mindset, not a "works" set. I mean, c'mon. Are you really going to suggest that the way out of condemnation is to give God no reason to condemn us...by our behavior? The way to beat the wages of sin is don't sin? So its all about us, and all up to us? Sounds like a cause for boasting if you ask me.

So the sacrifice of Jesus for sin becomes meaningless in that case. However.... If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father. O, I'm sure that those who are working so hard to be approved by God through their behavior do not want others to get off so easily. An advocate? What is Jesus thinking?

He said ..."by this they will know you are My disciples, by your love for one another (John13:35). And by the way, the royal law is LOVE.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. --- If we think we are a son of God and do not love, keep and fulfill His commandments, we are deceived and NOT a son of God. We know we are a son of God when that Spirit of Holiness is causing us, and helping us, and empowering us to stop sinning. Then we are really getting transformed, not just positionally, but also practically. Or "in real life".

When Jesus welcomes His own into His presence, He will say well done, My good and faithful servants, for you quit sinning .......no wait. He will say "I was hungry and you gave Me food. I was thirsty and you gave Me drink.I was a stranger and you took Me in. I was naked and you clothed Me.I was sick and you visited Me. I was in prison and you came to Me" ..."For inasmuch as you did it to the least of these, My brethren, You did it to Me".

Food can be holy, ground can be holy, water can be holy, a place can be holy, an so on and so forth. Holiness is not about behavior. It is about purpose. Even the Holy Spirit is He who accomplishes the purposes of the Godhead.

Our purpose is love. And one of the traits of love is that it does not seek its own. In other words, it is not self seeking. People who stop sinning just for the sake of their own salvation, have not fulfilled the category of love in it.

God has removed our cause for boasting by making life a free gift. This is so that we can get our motives off of self seeking and into the right perspective...to have love and compassion for others with the same love and compassion that was given us. We love Him because He first loved us. Self serving behavior and motive comes from a sense of lack, not a sense of completeness. We are complete in Him.

You want to properly motivate love for God? Reveal His love for us. There are no shortcuts. There is no other way. Push His wrath on a person and see how much self serving will result. God knows what He is doing with the covenant of grace. The carnal mind does not receive the things of God...(1COR.2:12)." but we have received NOT the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God ..THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN FREELY GIVEN TO US BY GOD" (NKJ).

 

[Tropical Islander]

"Paul identifies those who live according to the Spirit have their minds set on the things of the Spirit."

Exactly, so what are the things of the Spirit?

Scripture only please.


"People who stop sinning just for the sake of their own salvation, have not fulfilled the category of love in it"

I never heard something as weird as that. So there are people that stop sinning for the sake of their own salvation? Sorry, that's beyond my ability to comment on. And these people "have not fulfilled the category of love in it"? I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.

 

[IBeMe]

aspen : Tropical Islander

"People who stop sinning just for the sake of their own salvation, have not fulfilled the category of love in it"

I never heard something as weird as that. So there are people that stop sinning for the sake of their own salvation? Sorry, that's beyond my ability to comment on. And these people "have not fulfilled the category of love in it"? I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry.

That got my morning off to a good start.


.

williemac : The law of Moses is that which came down with Him from Mount Sinai. Other laws were added, but Moses was the mediator of all the law, including the ten commandments. It is merely slight of hand to mention part of it as though the rest is not included.

I've got news for you.

God's commandments were from the beginning, and are eternal.

Way before Moses...

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

From the beginning...

Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

God's commandments are His rules of what's right and wrong, righteousness.

It's impossible for that to change

The Mosaic Law was given to the children of Israel to teach them God's rules of righteousness; and help them live within the rules; be right before God.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God's righteousness didn't change, born-again-of-the-Spirit-sons-of-God-new-creatures-in-Christ-Jesus have the POWER to walk after the Spirit.

Will the Spirit ever lead a person to sin?

We're saved by faith in Jesus, made righteous.

But, what are we going to do after that?

"commandment" is a noun, not a verb.

The commandments don't do anything, don't make us righteous.

We're made righteous by faith in Jesus.

But, if we break the commandments, we've made ourselves unrighteous.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Don't make yourself unrighteous.

.

 

[williemac]

"Paul identifies those who live according to the Spirit have their minds set on the things of the Spirit."

Exactly, so what are the things of the Spirit?

Scripture only please.

The things of the spirit were already mentioned. Rom.7. Paul's revealed his mindset, that he was in agreement with the law. As well, 1Cor.2:12, the things freely given to us by God. These are they that they Holy Spirit reveals to us. These are the things of the Spirit. In contrast, the things of the flesh are among other things, those which are mentioned by Paul in Gal.4:23.." But he who was of the bondwoman was born according tho the flesh, and he of the freewoman, through the promise."

Abraham received a promise from God, that his seed would be as the sand of the sea. But he was faced with the reality of a barren wife, so he "helped" God by going to another woman to bear a child. This act is related to the flesh. It represents what man can produce as opposed to what God can produce. Make no mistake. Sin is not the only thing that is of the flesh. We cannot, of ourselves, produce life or righteousness. These come from God.

While many Christians are obsessed over the sin issue, they are unaware that there is another issue at hand. Self justification. God gives grace to the humble and resist the proud. In Luke 18:10-14, we can see the account of two men praying. The one man, a Pharisee, was relating all the good things he was doing, and the other man, without even looking up, beat his breast, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. He was the one, as vs.14 reveals, who by his humility, went away justified.

Here is what the gospel assures us. The one issue, sin, was taken care of at Calvary. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their sin against them (2Cor.5:19). The thing required for reconciliation is that we humbly accept God's gift of forgiveness that was purchased by the sacrifice of Jesus. This represents our acknowledgment that what we need, can only come from God. It cannot be produced by man.

In Paul's rebuke to the Galatians, we can see the seriousness of the attempt on a man's part to "help" God accomplish His promise of life.

Paul went on in Gal.4, to reveal that there are two covenants involved. The one that corresponds to Mount Sinai, he said gives birth to bondage. In context, we can understand that the bondage is in relation to a man's attempt to provide justification for himself through his obedience to law.

Here is a thought for you. One cannot walk in the Spirit in order to attain or retain justification. This is because those attempts are of the flesh, not the Spirit, as we can clearly understand from Galatians. One can only be walking in the Spirit if he is NOT attempting to justify himself in the process. The things of the Spirit do not include the idea that man can produce life or righteousness. They rather, include the truth that these are free gifts of grace.

This is why it is called fruit. An apple tree cannot produce apples unless it is actually an apple tree. The new man was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24). Putting on the new man is simply behaving according to our new nature. We are not doing this to attain the new nature, we are doing it to manifest it through the flesh. Everlasting life, and the free gift of righteousness, comes first, not after.

But in regards to fruit, the requirement is not the same as that of the law. The law demanded absolute fulfillment. The law is zero tolerant. But Jesus said that a little fruit would be received. And that He would use it and cause more fruit from it. In fact, in the parable of the talents, which is about fruit, we can see this unfold in the story. The man who buried his talent was told he could have just put the money in the bank and allowed it to collect interest. The astounding indication is that a minimal effort would have been acceptable.

The reason, which I have concluded from my study, prayer, and meditation, is that the issue is that of the heart. The person in question actually opposed his Master's agenda. He refused to go along with the plan. In fact, it took more effort to dig the hole and bury the money than it would have to put it in the bank. In the midst of a person's walk in this life, can one sin be equivalent to this? No. As I shared above, this is about loving one another. How does this get reduced to simply a matter of ensuring and securing one's own well being? Does God really require our help? My reply to that is that I wonder just how little assurance is in the heart of some people. Among other things, the Holy Spirit is given to provides us with a guarantee of our inheritance. How can He do this if this all depends on our "help"? No, it is about faith and humility. Those things brought us our life in the first place.

All of this is a far cry from the zero tolerance that I see being preached by some people on this subject line.

Blessings to you, in His love and grace.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Let's examine a few Bible definitions

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

first one mentioned is love. What is love according to God's word? Is it a burning emotional feeling. Or is it feigned affection. Or does it relate to some THING or idea you like and "love"?

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


next one mentioned is joy.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.


next one mentioned is peace.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.


now it's easy to continue to search all terms, and take the definitions for these words as explained by the apostles. The point Paul is making in Galatians 5:22 is this:

1) Positional reality: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
2) Practical reality: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

What IBeMe just told us in his last post is part of 2) Practical reality

a Positional reality without Practical reality is NOT Biblical Faith, here comes the rebuke:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Followers of Jesus actually follow him, they not only hear what He says, they also do what he says. That is only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit, nobody else can even try and succeed in such a challenge, because the domination of the flesh is absolute for the ones not IN Christ, they cannot walk in the Spirit. Yes there are counterfeits, but let's talk about the real one first, otherwise it gets too complex.

Faith and obedience are very close related. Even demons understand the authority of Jesus, believe in it, and act accordingly:

Mark 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.


How much more should we understand the relationship between eternal salvation, true faith, receiving of the Holy Spirit and obedience to His words (not mans):

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.


Jesus really is the saviour of them that follow and obey him, they are the ones that received His grace:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


and there is no disconnect ever ( except when misunderstanding Paul --> read 2 Peter 3:16) to the very end:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.