I believe one who deliberately sins in not a Christian.

[ScottAU]

Paul said that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works...not of ourselves lest any man should boast.

Saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, not of ourselves lest any man should boast has NOTHING to do with making any allowance for willful rebellion and still being in a reconciled state with God.

The means of salvation is by the grace of God which teaches men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, uprightly and godly in the present age. This grace of God has endured through men's rebellion and thus has abounded when sin has abounded but that does not mean that we are to keep sinning that grace abound even more. Paul is very clear on these things.

God's standard is heart purity and that is attained via the submission of the will to the Spirit of God. There is no rebellion in submission and there is no rebellion to God from a pure heart. Pure means pure and Jesus Christ gave Himself for us to redeem us from ALL iniquity and to make us pure and therefore zealous of doing the right thing all the time.

There are many deceivers in the world who twist the Bible and the words of Jesus in order to excuse ongoing rebellion as being permissable by separating sanctifcation from justification. When the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith it is in the context of a faith that obeys God like Noah and Abraham had.

The way is most definitely narrow and only a very few people are willing to engage it because the vast majority are unwilling to crucify their flesh. Thus the vast majority very easily buy into ear tickling deception which excuse the need for the old man to die. There is no rebirth whilst the old man lives.

Jesus meant exactly what He said.




When the Bible teaches that we are not saved by the works of the law it is within the context that the mere "outward obedience to commandments" is not the issue between human beings and God. The issue is the HEART. The Pharisees kept many command outwardly but their hearts remained unclean and this is why Jesus told them to cleanse first that which is within that the outside be made clean also. Thus the fulfillment of the law is via having a clean heart where one is no longer subject to outward laws for regulation, rather one is regulated via a pure heart, a heart that loves God and loves their neighbour. That is the Gospel. The means of attaining a clean heart is through the cross, we die WITH Christ and are raised to newness of life WITH Christ, old things are passed away and all things become new. Thus we enter into a NEW COVENANT with God not based on the Mosaic Law but rather based on Purity of Heart. We enter into this Covenant through repentance and faith whereby we forsake our old life of selfish gratifcation and ungodliness and yield ourselves up to God as servants of righteousness.

Modern theology in general is pure deception as it has completely denies heart purity taking place in this life for they teach that sin is akin to a substance of the flesh and therefore human beings cannot cease from sin.

Willful sin has ceased in those whom are born again. A born again Christian may fall short due to ignorance but upon becoming aware of that which is wrong they will submit to correction and move on. That is the chastisement the Bible speaks of, not chastisement of willful sin. Deliberate sin is out of the question for real born again believers.

 

[williemac]

You still view it all from the wrong end. You want to talk about justication, how to be justified, we talk about what to do after we are justified. What is salvation about, what is for, and how to walk in the Spirit.

It's impossible to understand why our view is different until you get that Jesus that does teach the new covenant, and you can precisely explain what is part of the new covenant and what it means to walk in the Holy Spirit.

Then we might get somewhere. Until then we will miss each other, since we talk about totally different stages, the proof is in the pudding with this one: John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Thank you for giving me this benefit of the doubt. However, I have to say that I know full well what you are talking about.

The Galatia church had already been justified. They had already received the Spirit by faith. But they were convinced by someone other than Paul, that they needed to keep the law as part of their covenant with God...after having been justified by faith.

And there can be no doubt as to which law Paul was rebuking them about. This is why I took the time to quote him concerning Mount Sinai.

I have never argued that we are to keep His commandments. You can go back and read all my posts. You will never see me objecting to our call to obedience. I will repeat something I said so that maybe you can understand the significance of it: That is, this is not about what we should or shouldn't do. This is about WHY.

Please allow me to share a concept. If the police in your area were to all quit or go on strike, what do you think would result? Of course, before too long, all hell would break loose. That is because without enforcement, law is pointless. Even with enforcement, people still break the law.

So, when God brought His law into play, He used the incentives of enforcement. He promised reward for obedience, and punishment for disobedience. I can understand why some people insist that these incentives still exist. Our instinct is to expect that without them, men will take advantage.

But the problem of sin is not about mere behavior. It is about man's nature. You can train a dog, for example, to not bark. However, its offspring will most assuredly bark. This is because it is in their nature. God's solution to the sin problem goes much further than merely enforcement. He is doing away with our species altogether and creating a new one.

However, since He gave man free will, He will not violate it by re creating a person without his consent. This is where the gospel comes in. He did the work (refer to Rom. 5), and He paid the penalty for sin. The entire enforcement of the law was fulfilled by Jesus.

This took care of a couple of issues. It is a mistake to assume that sin is the only issue. There is another, more serious issue between man and God. It is seen in the original offense of Lucifer. His desire was to leave his created purpose and take on the role of God. This can be referred to as self exaltation. Another word for it is pride. John mentioned the pride of life in 1John 2:16.

We are told that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. This is why I suggested that one should read Jesus' words in Luke 18:10-14.
What is my point? Simply that God's role is to be the source of life and righteousness. We cannot produce either of these. Therefore we must humble ourselves and receive them freely as a gift of grace.

Our role after this is merely to bear the fruit of the life that is in us. But this is where the contention on this subject comes in. What will be our incentive to bear fruit? I am going to agree that there is still the promise of reward and the threat of consequences as part of our incentive. However, this is where we part company. Eternal life has been taken off the table. Eternal punishment has been taken off the table. Why? Because these incentives bring us back into the subject of justification.

We will find ourselves on the judgment seat of Christ. He will hand out rewards there. But He will also take them away. Our works will be tested. But what about punishment? The answer to that lies in His assurance that all whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens.

So yes, there is still authority over us. There is still enforcement. But there is one thing that is taboo. When it comes to the reward of everlasting life, the requirement is not about works. It is about the humility of faith. It is about letting God have His role and our not touching it.

Life is a free gift. The cross it what satisfies His wrath. Nothing else can be added to that fact. Certainly not our feeble attempt to be good. We don't even come close in this life to the glory we will have when the new creation has been completed in us.

But to touch on our mindset, we can see it in Rom.7. Paul said that he was in agreement with the law. In fact, he revealed remorse for the sin that was in his flesh. Willful sin is not the same as deliberate sin. If God wanted to use the word 'deliberate' in Heb.10:26, He would have.

Those who come to Him for salvation have already agreed that they need forgiveness for sin. Rom.10:9 mentions confession and faith. 1John 1:9 mentions confession. No one will confess sin to be forgiven for it, who do not have the mindset in Rom.7.

Those who do not agree with the law, who do not have remorse for the sin within them, are in willful sin. They will not come to God for forgiveness in the first place. Christians have already crossed that barrier. The trick now is to remain there and not go back. Sin by itself cannot accomplish this. Going back all the way out of salvation requires a rejection of the sacrifice for sin. I can assure you that people who are working to stay saved are in more danger than people who sin (even deliberately) and are remorseful about it.

A minor example is the problem of smoking. I can verify that the majority of long time smokers wish that they didn't smoke. Many sins are very addictive and many people struggle with them, even after having been saved and filled with the Spirit. . The last thing they need is to be nailed by the law. The strength of sin is the law. It is the love (goodness) of God that leads us to repentance.

If a person cannot offer comfort, but merely condemnation, to a struggling brother, then I suggest he steps aside and let God do His work.

 

[ScottAU]

Salvation is not a package. The Bible does not present salvation as a package.

So many people have this idea that salvation is akin to a package that you simply receive and then after having recieved the package change will happen. This view is simply not true.

Salvation is a state of being that one enters into through the new birth. The Bible says that Jesus came to save people FROM their sins (Mat 1:21) as opposed to saving them IN their sins. Sinners are held in bondage to the service of sin and salvation is a state where this bondage has been broken. Salvation has nothing to do with Jesus paying some "penalty for sin" which somehow "fulfills the enforcement of the law.." The Bible does not say anything like that anywhere, that is human rhetoric not Scripture. That stuff was invented by theologians like Anselm and the Reformers.

Paul wrote that there is no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus, he then writes that Jesus gave Himself so that the law be fulfilled IN us. The Bible does not say that Jesus gave Himself to fulfill the enforcement of the law by paying some penalty that was due. The penalty due for sin is over all those who are still in rebellion to God, over all those who are still sinning (willfully). It is those who walk after the Spirit who fulfill the law IN them because they have come to God in repentance, crucified the old man with Christ, been raised up with Christ and thus walk according to the lead of God. They fulfill the law by loving God and their neighbour with pure hearts. That is what the Bible teaches.

This notion of a "struggling brother" whom is still addicted to various sins is a false teaching. Any individual who has been saved from sin is no longer addicted to their sins, the addiction has been broken through a death and resurrection. The power of God is to walk in victory as opposed to walking in constant defeat. There are so many who have a "form of godliness" but deny the true power of God to set them free from sin. An entire theological system has been invented which teaches that salvation and an impure heart can exist together when the Bible is very clear that no-one can serve two masters.

Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament sacrificial system by offering Himself without spot on our behalf up to God so that our sins may be remitted through identifying ourselves with the resurrection of Jesus Christ through genuine repentance and faith.

Again, salvation is not a package which you accept. There is no such thing as "trusting in the work of the cross" and being saved while you still serve sin, that is a myth. We have to pick up our own cross, deny ourselves, crucify our old man in repentance, yield to God and then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life. The body of sin is to be destroyed once and for all that we no longer be servants of sin. Anyone obeying sin is still a servant of sin. That Bible makes emphatic statements which clearly teach this. There is perfect harmony between the words of Paul and the words of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:26-29 means exactly what it says and it is foolish to try and twist it into something else because it does not agree with your theology. Hebrews 10 describes clearly how we are to approach God via the blood with a true heart, in other words we are to come clean before God about our wrongdoing and stop doing it. In laying aside our wickedness we are able to receive the implanted word and thus find empowerment to walk in victory over sin. The Holy Spirit will not indwell a defiled vessel which is still serving sin. The sin must stop. The sin stops via the dynamic of "godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation" by which the wild horse spirit of a rebellious person is broken and replaced with a submissive spirit towards God. This is the work of God's grace and we have to cooperate with God for it to take place. This is what the BIble teaches.

There is a massive satanic deception which has taken over nominal Christianity with doctrines which deny what I have written above and in its place teach this package salvation. Those who are induced to accept the package fall under a strong delusion that they are saved when they are not saved and are quite effectually innoculated to the real truth. Most of these people will resist the truth of the Bible and the very words of Jesus and remain subject to canned responses and misrepresentations of the truth. This delusion is very effectual and is constructed of layer upon layer of deception and it is very hard to penetrate or exricate oneself from it once under its sway.

Jesus warned empahtically MANY would come in His name claiming that He is Christ and that these people would deceived MANY. Do not underestimate that warning. Satan is a roaring lion not a pussy cat. Satan is a liar from the beginning and his deceptions are very effectual.

It is the FEW who will be saved. The FEW who STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate and endure the narrow way which leads to life. Jesus taught that. Jesus also taught that MANY would seek to enter into the narrow way and would be unable to.

The FEW may be a great multutude in the scheme of things but compared to the MANY it is but a very small minority. Rememeber Noah and the flood. EIGHT people were preserved. EIGHT!!! MANY perished in the flood of judgment and MANY are going to cry out "Lord, Lord" and be rejected because they remained "workers of iniquity." Saints are not workers of iniquity, they are not addicted to iniquity, instead they serve righteousness perfecting holiness in the fear of God as they grow. Obedience unto righteousness unto holiness the end of which is everlasting life is what the Bible specifically states. Believe it, seek it and LIVE.

God bless.

 

[IBeMe]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Why not just come to the realization that we're going to have to actually do what God says? ... After all, there are no options.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

We've found the pearl of great price, let's give up all that we have to attain it; works of the flesh.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is going to be easy, as long as we keep the yoke on.

We might feel the sting of the whip every now and then, but it's all good.

 

[williemac]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Why not just come to the realization that we're going to have to actually do what God says? ... After all, there are no options.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

We've found the pearl of great price, let's give up all that we have to attain it; works of the flesh.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

This is going to be easy, as long as we keep the yoke on.

We might feel the sting of the whip every now and then, but it's all good.

The will of God concerning salvation is to believe on Jesus for it. You are taking A passage and applying it to the law. Jesus did not say he who doeth the law will be saved. But that is the bottom line of your position on this subject. The yoke that is easy and the burden that is light is found in the fact that our works do not justify us. Faith is an easier yoke than performance.

The heaviest burden of all is one that demands absolute success. No one has ever fulfilled it, but that is what the law demands. James said that if a person should fail on any one point of the law, he is declared guilty of all of the law. This is a recipe for failure. No man can satisfy all the law all the time. It is delusional thinking to think that it is possible in this life. Therefore we are dependent upon the grace and mercy of God, from the beginning of our walk to the end of our walk. The easiest yoke is to walk without fear of rejection.

The sting of the whip is not rejection. It is love. How is it that this is turned into rejection? You contradict yourself on this matter.

The key to life is to come out from under the law. The law will condemn every single person who is judged by it. This includes all believers who think that they are walking in sinlessness.

Salvation is not a package. The Bible does not present salvation as a package.

So many people have this idea that salvation is akin to a package that you simply receive and then after having recieved the package change will happen. This view is simply not true.

God bless.

Salvation is not a package? What does that even mean? In Rom.10:9,10 we find that " ..if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For with the heart one believes to righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". We can agree to not call this a package if you wish. But we cannot argue with what it says nor add to it for salvation. It is an absolute statement.

Salvation is a state of being that one enters into through the new birth. The Bible says that Jesus came to save people FROM their sins (Mat 1:21) as opposed to saving them IN their sins. Sinners are held in bondage to the service of sin and salvation is a state where this bondage has been broken. Salvation has nothing to do with Jesus paying some "penalty for sin" which somehow "fulfills the enforcement of the law.." The Bible does not say anything like that anywhere, that is human rhetoric not Scripture. That stuff was invented by theologians like Anselm and the Reformers.

A simple look at the details will reveal that what we are saved from is the wrath of God. Salvation has everything to do with the penalty being paid. Gal.3:13..." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree). This was the "human rhetoric" of Paul. Will you accuse him of inventing it? So, what do you think the crucifixion was? Just a mistake? Does John 3:16 mean nothing to you but "rhetoric"?
We are saved from our sin by way of becoming a new creation. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). The sin nature is still with us in our body of sin. Salvation, and the new creation, will not be completed until the resurrection. But He is the one who began this work in us, and He is the one who will compete it. We are not made perfect by the flesh or in the flesh. "not by works" means exactly what it says. We can and should walk in the spirit , but this does not change the way to salvation. It is still "not by works". It doesn't change back to works after we receive life and the spirit. Why? because our free will is involved. It therefore becomes up to the individual to life a godly life. However, this puts us back into the arena of boasting if it effects our justification. That is forbidden territory.

It is the FEW who will be saved. The FEW who STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate and endure the narrow way which leads to life. Jesus taught that. Jesus also taught that MANY would seek to enter into the narrow way and would be unable to.

The FEW may be a great multutude in the scheme of things but compared to the MANY it is but a very small minority. Rememeber Noah and the flood. EIGHT people were preserved. EIGHT!!! MANY perished in the flood of judgment and MANY are going to cry out "Lord, Lord" and be rejected because they remained "workers of iniquity." Saints are not workers of iniquity, they are not addicted to iniquity, instead they serve righteousness perfecting holiness in the fear of God as they grow. Obedience unto righteousness unto holiness the end of which is everlasting life is what the Bible specifically states. Believe it, seek it and LIVE.

God bless.

The few? God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. In John's vision, he saw a multitude standing before the throne that no one could number. This is a few? Think again. If God purposely made salvation hard to obtain, then He could never have promised Abraham such a large number. What Jesus said, was true at the time He said it. The law was given to confine the world under sin. Faith had not yet been revealed in Jesus' time on earth. The new covenant did not commence until His death. This so called "few" was a problem that was solved at Calvary. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses against them. This is word for word from 2Cor.5:19. Furthermore, vs.21 states that he made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Still think He did not pay the price? Still think salvation is hard to obtain?

By the way, living a godly life is not an absolute in this life. No one is completely immersed in a righteous walk and no one is completely immersed in sin. There is a mixture of both in every single believer. Don't kid yourself. The key is found in John 5:24, where Jesus assured us that we would not come under judgment. That is our gift from God: Freedom from judgment, by way of faith. If I were you I would read Rom. ch.5 again. What we have is made possible by the obedience of One man. Even our sin came from one man. We inherited it. Thus life,too, is an inheritance.

The law is not fulfilled in us by way of our keeping it. It is fulfilled in us by our faith in Jesus. Rom.10:4..."..Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe..."

Life is a free gift. What part of that do you think is unfair?

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : The will of God concerning salvation is to believe on Jesus ...

You demand that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law.

It's impossible for you to have any understanding of the Bible, whatsoever.

Do you know why the Gospels are called, "The Gospels?"

Do you know of any Christian denomination that teaches that Jesus was preaching the Mosaic Law?

.

 

[Tropical Islander]

God's standard is heart purity and that is attained via the submission of the will to the Spirit of God. There is no rebellion in submission and there is no rebellion to God from a pure heart. Pure means pure and Jesus Christ gave Himself for us to redeem us from ALL iniquity and to make us pure and therefore zealous of doing the right thing all the time.

There are many deceivers in the world who twist the Bible and the words of Jesus in order to excuse ongoing rebellion as being permissable by separating sanctifcation from justification. When the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith it is in the context of a faith that obeys God like Noah and Abraham had.

The way is most definitely narrow and only a very few people are willing to engage it because the vast majority are unwilling to crucify their flesh. Thus the vast majority very easily buy into ear tickling deception which excuse the need for the old man to die. There is no rebirth whilst the old man lives.

Jesus meant exactly what He said.

Spot on Scott in AU,

you just told us the true nature of saving faith.

Everything we externally do, or don't do is just a reflection of that.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[ScottAU]

Williemac,

Salvation is not a package? What does that even mean? In Rom.10:9,10 we find that " ..if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED. For with the heart one believes to righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation". We can agree to not call this a package if you wish. But we cannot argue with what it says nor add to it for salvation. It is an absolute statement.

Romans 10:9-10 are not words in isolation. Look at these words...

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Now compare to...

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul states that it is with the heart that men believe unto righteousness and that the mouth confesses to salvation. In other words it is via the heart that we are doers of the word (ie. true believing) and one manifestation of this is confession with the mouth.

Look at Abraham as an example...

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham believed and his belief was counted for righteousness. Yet what "kind" of belief was it? It was a belief that produced this...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Authentic belief necessitates actual steps or doing. That is why Paul connects "faith" with "steps of faith." We see this connection in Hebrews as well...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The faith of Abraham produced manifest obedience. If there is no obedience or steps of faith then there is no real faith, there is no real belief. Disobedience and faith cannot mix.

James makes the same connection...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James connects faith to the "works of faith" (not works of the law) and then connects it to the "belief" which justified Abraham as righteous. This is what the Bible teaches.

To take Romans 10:9-10 and use those two verses as a proof text that faith can be disconnected from obedience is to twist scripture out of context and that is what you are doing. That is what many do when implying salvation is a "position only" or some kind of "package." Salvation is not a package or an abstract position at all. Salvation is a present active state of being in a reconciled obedient state with God. Salvation is being in harmony with the will of God via submission to the leading of the Spirit.

The sons of God are those whom are led by the Spirit of God.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Jesus said...

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Any individual whom is serving sin is not following Jesus, they are walking in the opposite direction. The saints of God are not workers in iniquity.

The Bible is so clear on these things. Those who preach a package salvation ignore it and continually defend being able to engage in sin and remain in a reconciled state with God. Isn't that what you are defending Will? Are you not defending as fact that you can sin and not surely die? Be honest and address that point.

A simple look at the details will reveal that what we are saved from is the wrath of God. Salvation has everything to do with the penalty being paid. Gal.3:13..." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree). This was the "human rhetoric" of Paul. Will you accuse him of inventing it? So, what do you think the crucifixion was? Just a mistake? Does John 3:16 mean nothing to you but "rhetoric"?

Does Galatians 3:13 state that Jesus paid the penalty for sin? No it does not. No Scripture states that. Galatians speaks of being redeemed (set free by payment of a ransom) from the curse of the law. It was the law that brought death but it is the Spirit which brings life. Look at what Hebrews states...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

It is via the blood of Christ we enter into covenant with God by approaching God with a true heart whereby we have our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. The Bible says nothing anywhere about Jesus paying the "penalty" for sin. You cannot cite a single Scripture which teaches any such thing. The blood is for cleansing as opposed to a penalty payment.

The package salvation deception omits the cleansing of the heart which is clearly taught in the Bible and replaces it with a judicial decreee which is abstract in principle and which is applied to a heart which is still filthy. This is why modern theology ignores Hebrews 10:22 where it speaks about a "true heart" and ignores Heb 10:26 which speaks of ongoing willful sin being out of the question.


I have to head out to work but think about what I have written. Also not Will that you completely ignore the plain words of Jesus in your answers. You deny them by using other scriptures. You try and imply that the will of God can be belief without the associated obedience, hence your allusion earlier to a "brother struggling with sin." You must believe that a porn addict, murder addict, drunk, pedophile etc. can be "saved" while they still engage in those sins. Am I right? Address that question please.

 

[williemac]

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Jesus became a curse for us. How is that not He paying the penalty for sin? He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us. How is that not He paying the wages of sin on our behalf? This is about the satisfying of justice. That is what death does. And our old man is crucified with Christ. But since we are to put off the old man, he is still actually and literally alive. So therefore, he is positionally dead. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died. I think you are the one who should be thinking about things. We don't need to use the word "penalty" if you don't like that word. But wages...this is just a matter of semantics. Do you think He willingly died for nothing? I would be careful about your attitude concerning the great sacrifice He made...if I were you. Was it a common thing? Do you count it as just another man dying?
As for the rest of your post, I have been thinking, studying, meditating, and praying about this for years. And I have had many a discussion and debate on the subject. There is nothing you can say that I have not considered, or already addressed in my replies. This is not paper covers rock. You say that I am ignoring scriptures? No. I am putting them in their proper context and keeping the two covenants seperate from one another.

As for your last question. John 5:24 assures us that we, through faith in Him, will not come under judgment. Jesus encountered those whom He called "My servants", in Rev.2:20, who were in sexual immorality. He did not condemn them. He recognized them by their identity in Him and warned that He would strongly chasten them if they did not repent of their deeds. What do we do with our own disobedient children? Do we disown them? Give your head a shake, bro. If you don't like the idea the people can take advantage of grace, that is your problem. Paul said not to. If it were not possible, no such exhortation would be needed. But you must really have sin on a pedistle. You think it is so wonderful? You think it makes people happy? Jesus actually showed compassion on sinners. he understands what people are made of. Why do your suppose He chose to re create the species? We are broken and need fixing. You think it is up to us to fix ourselves? Guess again.

In this life, we are in partial transition. If you suppose that this is just a test to see who can behave himself, then you have missed the point, failed to grasp the concept. You mention all the usually considered, real big sins, to make your point. But if we are judged according to the law, the thing that is used to identify sin, then even the smallest ones will condemn us. Even the ones done in ignorance will condemn us. The law is zero tolerant. When we get out from under the law for justification, then even the so called real big sins cannot touch the one who has faith in Jesus, in relation to justification for everlasting life. They will do their damage well enough in this temporal life. In the meantime, the old man, the part of us that contains the sin of Adam, is already declared dead and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Dead is dead. Done is done. Finished is finished. That is HOW cleansing from sin is accomplished. That is HOW forgiveness is accomplished. It is based on justice served.

The bible uses the term "free gift" when it comes to life and righteousness. (Rom.5) We are going to have to decide if this remains true after having received it, or if it is merely like getting a paycheck before we go to work; more like a loan that needs to be payed for after having received it. If that is the case, then it was never free in the first place.

But.." we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God". (1Cor.2:12).. What spirit should we listen to? for, " if God did not spare His Son, but delivered Him up for us all (price paid), how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? (Rom.8:32). (NKJ)

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : ... I have been thinking, studying, meditating, and praying about this for years. And I have had many a discussion and debate on the subject. There is nothing you can say that I have not considered ...

Have you considered how silly it is to say that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law?

Have you ever wondered why they call the Gospels, "The Gospels"?

Perhaps, you need to spend a little more time.

.

 

[Dodo_David]

Have you considered how silly it is to say that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law?

Have you ever wondered why they call the Gospels, "The Gospels"?

Perhaps, you need to spend a little more time.

.

IBeMe, when Jesus told Jews - who were under the Old Covenant - to obey the commandments, he was referring to all 613 commandments in the Torah.
Yes, the Jews that he spoke to were under the Old Covenant, and it made sense for Jesus to tell Jews to keep the Old Covenant.

Now, are we Gentile believers in Messiah Jesus under the requirements of the Old Covenant? Answer: No.

 

[mjrhealth]

One simp;le question Ibeme, are you saying we must still keep the 10 commandments, because most of what you are saying is correct, but I am missing something.

In all His Love

 

[aspen]

The word Gospel was used to get people's attention. During Jesus's time, people used to introduce themselves as Romans by giving the gospel of the Emperor - Christians changed the Gospel to Jesus when they introduced themselves. Instead of being witnesses for Rome, they became witnesses for Christ and it often times got them killed.

 

[IBeMe]

Dodo_David: when Jesus told Jews - who were under the Old Covenant - to obey the commandments, he was referring to all 613 commandments in the Torah

Nope.

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

.

mjrhealth: One simp;le question Ibeme, are you saying we must still keep the 10 commandments, because most of what you are saying is correct, but I am missing something.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


.

aspen : The word Gospel was used to get people's attention. During Jesus's time, people used to introduce themselves as Romans by giving the gospel of the Emperor - Christians changed the Gospel to Jesus when they introduced themselves. Instead of being witnesses for Rome, they became witnesses for Christ and it often times got them killed.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,



.

 

[aspen]

Gospel simply means 'good news'

 

[ScottAU]

Will,

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Jesus became a curse for us. How is that not He paying the penalty for sin? He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us. How is that not He paying the wages of sin on our behalf? This is about the satisfying of justice. That is what death does. And our old man is crucified with Christ. But since we are to put off the old man, he is still actually and literally alive. So therefore, he is positionally dead. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died. I think you are the one who should be thinking about things. We don't need to use the word "penalty" if you don't like that word. But wages...this is just a matter of semantics. Do you think He willingly died for nothing? I would be careful about your attitude concerning the great sacrifice He made...if I were you. Was it a common thing? Do you count it as just another man dying?
As for the rest of your post, I have been thinking, studying, meditating, and praying about this for years. And I have had many a discussion and debate on the subject. There is nothing you can say that I have not considered, or already addressed in my replies. This is not paper covers rock. You say that I am ignoring scriptures? No. I am putting them in their proper context and keeping the two covenants seperate from one another.

The wages of sin is death is not death on a cross. The verse that speaks of sins wages is making a comparison between the results of "serving sin" compared to the results of "abiding in Jesus Christ." Read the passage for yourself...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God's gift is eternal life through abiding in the Son. To use Rom 6:23 as a supporting scripture for Jesus "paying the penalty for sin" is a gigantic twist. The verse says nothing like that. Youy are doing what so many others do, you mention a verse of Scripture and then apply rhetoric which actually has nothing to do with the verse quoted.

There is not a single Scripture or passage in the entire Bible which teaches that Jesus paid penalty for sin. Why is that? You won't find any mention in early church writings of any such thing either. Why is that?

The notion that Jesus paid the penalty for sin in your place is a doctrine of men. Human beings made it up. Jesus did not teach it. The apostles did not teach it. Early church writers did not teach it. Why do you believe it then? I bet you believe it because that is what you have been told many times and also that it is a very popular teaching today. Popularity does not make it true.


You also reference 2Cor 5:21 and use that as a proof text for your doctrine. Yet that passage does not say anyting of the sort. Again you have isolated a verse and referenced it and then applied your rhetoric to it to give the impression that it is teaching something which it is not.

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2Cor 5:21 is about "abiding in Christ" and has NOTHING to do with Jesus paying some penalty that you owed on your behalf. Jesus was made to be sin for us in a figurative sense by becoming a curse for us, in other words He suffered on our behalf so that we could be made the righteousness of God in Him. Jesus died as an EXAMPLE to show us the way to life. Sin is not a material substance but is a moral action and thus it is impossible for Jesus to literally "become sin."

Compare 2Cor 5:21 to Rom 8:3-4 where it states...

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus came down to this earth as a man and as a man he condemned sin in the flesh. Jesus did not yield to the lusts of the flesh and rebel against God. The reason He did this was so that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us when we are made the righteousness of God in Him by walking after the Spirit of His life.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that sets us free, not some penalty payment.

Step back and think about this. What does the Bible actually say. We have to go with what the Bible actually says not what we want it to say and not what we may think it says.

Look at this verse...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus gave Himself for us in order to redeem (set us free) from all iniquity and to make us pure. Titus 2:14 states very specifically WHY Jesus died on that cross.

Look at Romans chapter 3...

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The righteousness of God without the law was manifested to the world by Jesus Christ (ie. He walked via the Spirit as opposed to the letter). This is the righteousness of God (true righteousness) which is by faith (faith that works by love [Gal 5:6], faith that purifies the heart [Act 15:9] and this righteousness is upon all those who truly believe (believe like Abraham and Noah and are doers of the word having submitted themselves to the will of the Father).

We are justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption (redemption means being set free by payment of a ransom, Jesus ransomed us from the ongoing service of sin) that is IN Christ Jesus. Redemption is through ABIDING IN CHRIST and WALKING AS HE WALKED in victory over the lusts of the eyes, lusts of the flesh and the pride of life.

God sent forth Jesus as a proptiatory (mercy seat) offering that expiates our sin due to the mercy of God when we repent of our wickedness. The righteousness of Jesus was declared before all men as an example of the standard that God will accept and forgive us our sins if we forsake evil. It is the same message that the prophets of old taught.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Mercy is available to any sinner who will forsake their wickedness and turn back to God. Any sinner who will approach God with a true heart and enter into covenant with God via the blood of Christ will be forgiven.

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

WHat I am saying is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. The Bible is in perfect harmony about this. It is men who have perverted this message over hundreds of years of inistitutionalised religion. The modern Christian religion is an utter perversion of the truth.

Jesus warned of massive deception that would come. Look around you at the churches. Pracitcally none of them teach that the old man must be crucified with the associated passions and desires. The cross has been twisted into an abstract provision which people perceive as some kind of cloak for their ongoing inwardly corrupt state. The heart purity which the true Gospel brings has been thrown completely out the window.


Will, you misapply my words with strawman assumptions. You claim that I am implying that the death of Christ was common because I assert that there was no "sin debt paid." There was nothing common about the death of Christ. Jesus was a lamb without blemish, He never sinned one time, and the Father suffered Him to be scorned, tortured and be persecuted by sinful men. In doing so Jesus fulfilled the Scripture and died on our behalf so that we could, through Him, be made the righteousness of God. If we put away the old man, the natural man, the man born of Adam, the man who like Adam rebelled against God, and instead identify ourselved with Jesus Christ by abiding in the Spirit of His life then God will count us a a son of God. Just like Jesus was raised from the dead, from a corruptible body to an incorruptible body we too will be raised up at the last day.

This is what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that salvation and sin mix together. No. The sin must stop. Satan wants people to believe that sin and salvation can operate together because that is the ruin of a man. There is no salvation in sin, only salvation from sin.

Go and sin no more lest a worse thing happen to you. That is what Jesus said and He meant it. The sin must stop.

 

[mjrhealth]

IBEME i suppose in your way you did answer, sounds like yo uare combining teh law with grace,

Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

We have but one law the law of love, if you keep the commandments by the letter than you are under the law, the law only brings death. Grace or the law you choose, which is it??

In all His Love

 

[IBeMe]

...

mjrhealth : In all His Love

What does that mean?

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If we want to abide in His love what do we have to do? ... keep my commandments

What are His commandments? ... the word that I have spoken

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This is a pretty simple concept...
God is God.
We not God.
God say do, we do.

We could pretend that all this commandment stuff was done away with the Mosaic Law, but...

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

That won't work; the Mosaic Law ended when John's ministry began.

This is the only wise coarse of action I see; the alternatives show no hope.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


.

 

[williemac]

1John 3:23:
"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

1John 5:4... " For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world-our faith"

1John5:10-12...." He who believes in the Son of God has this witness within himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony; that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life.

1John 5:13..."These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God"

Acts 4:12...."there is no other name given among men by which men must be saved"

Salvation is all about Jesus. It is about the forgiveness of sin. Our life here is all about love. He who is forgiven much, loves much.

He who is striving to be accepted and saved by way of his own behavioral effort, has possibly yet to fully understand and fully receive the forgiveness of sin. What does this person truly believe in his heart?

How much love can such a man give, if he has fully not perceived the love of God?

When a sinner comes face to face with God's love, will this change him? When he comes face to face with punishment and wrath, it may well change his behavior, but what about changing his heart? Rom.5:5..."the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit"

It's all about love. Anyone can stop some of his sinning. But what will make him love God and his fellow man? ....grace, mercy, forgiveness. Does our covenant remove these, or set them aside? God forbid!

Gal.3:21......" If there had been A law given which could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law" .. Life does not come by way of keeping any law, whether Mosaic or otherwise. No law is no law.

Gal.3:7..."Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham".

If one were to read the entire letter of James, they would see that James observed the lack of love in some of his fellow countrymen and declared that faith without works is dead. FYI, a glass without water is empty. But if it is 1/3 or 2/3 full, is it without water? Let's not confuse rhetoric with reality. No faith equals no love. Who among us has NO love?

It is grievous to me when someone is willing to condemn a man for a sin without considering the whole life lived. This is not grace! James' comment on works was not even about sin (re:the OP). He was talking about loving one another. This is the royal law. But even it cannot bring life. No law is no law. He who has the Son has life!

 

[mjrhealth]

No ibeme you are trying to serve two masters, which is it Jesus or the Law, what is His comandment, "LOVE". if you had a loved one, would you beat them up, would you steal from them, would you murder them, if you truly loved them you would not because of Love, not because of any LAWS, dont you understand, the LAW was all about the flesh, it was about man trying to save himself, in this you have already failed. Jesus paid the price"once" He will not die for you again, are you going to nail Him back up on that cross again, christians do it every year.

In all His Love