I figured out the beast and false prophet

[Davy]

Interesting and novel interpretation, but then if Satan is the destroyer, and the ruler of the bottomless pit, who was Jesus speaking of when referencing the judgment of the ruler of this world? Is our world the bottomless pit? Or who was Paul referring to as "the prince of the power of the air?"

Novel isn't a realistic choice of words.

If you rely on a majority of Bible scholars to 'tell' you that Revelation 9:11 is pointing to Satan, you won't find that many. But you can find some, if commentaries is what you rely on for Bible understanding

(Fausset):

APOLLYON
("destroyer"). Satan (Rev 9:11. He is the tempter, in order that he may be at last the destroyer. The Greek translation of the Hebrew:
Abaddon
, (destruction). As the twofold names
Abba
(Hebrew Father (Greek) in Mark 14:36 combine Jew and Gentile in the common salvation, so Satan's two names
Abaddon
(Hebrew and
Apolluon
(Greek) combine them in a common destruction.
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


From Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary:
Revelation 9:11
A king ... which is the angel. So A 'Aleph (<START HEBREW>a<END HEBREW>) read the article before "angel." Translate, 'They have as king over them the angel,' etc.: Satan (cf. Rev 9:1). B omits the article, 'They have as king an angel,' etc.: some chief demon under Satan. I prefer, from Rev 9:1, the former.

Bottomless pit - 'abyss.'

Abaddon - i.e., destruction (Job 26:6; Prov 27:20). The locusts are supernatural-Satan's instruments to torment, yet not kill, the ungodly. As in the case of godly Job, Satan was allowed to torment with elephantiasis, but not to touch life. In Rev 9:20, these two woe-trumpets are called "plagues." Andreas of Cesarea, 500 A.D., held that the locusts mean evil spirits, permitted to come on earth and afflict men with various plagues.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997-2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

It's true that the word Satan simply means adversary and could just as easily be applied to any human in our natural state, prior to receiving new life in Him, but Satan is not omnipresent. He can't be in all places at one time. He's not like God, and doesn't possess those attributes defined by godhood. Heaven has a hierarchy. Hell has a hierarchy.

The name Apollyon in Rev.9:11 is from the base Greek word apollumi, which is used to describe the perishing of the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit, per Rev.11 and Rev.17:8 & 11. The key revelation in that is the fact that it shows that beast is already... assigned to perish, and just about anyone who has even lightly studied their Bible easily knows that's about Satan himself, for ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

No flesh born man has been judged yet, or did you forget that God's Great White Throne Judgment of casting into the lake of fire is still yet future to us, and is when Satan is destroyed?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Novel isn't a realistic choice of words.

If you rely on a majority of Bible scholars to 'tell' you that Revelation 9:11 is pointing to Satan, you won't find that many. But you can find some, if commentaries is what you rely on for Bible understanding

(Fausset):

APOLLYON
("destroyer"). Satan (Rev 9:11. He is the tempter, in order that he may be at last the destroyer. The Greek translation of the Hebrew:
Abaddon
, (destruction). As the twofold names
Abba
(Hebrew Father (Greek) in Mark 14:36 combine Jew and Gentile in the common salvation, so Satan's two names
Abaddon
(Hebrew and
Apolluon
(Greek) combine them in a common destruction.
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright © 1998, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)


From Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary:
Revelation 9:11
A king ... which is the angel. So A 'Aleph (<START HEBREW>a<END HEBREW>) read the article before "angel." Translate, 'They have as king over them the angel,' etc.: Satan (cf. Rev 9:1). B omits the article, 'They have as king an angel,' etc.: some chief demon under Satan. I prefer, from Rev 9:1, the former.

Bottomless pit - 'abyss.'

Abaddon - i.e., destruction (Job 26:6; Prov 27:20). The locusts are supernatural-Satan's instruments to torment, yet not kill, the ungodly. As in the case of godly Job, Satan was allowed to torment with elephantiasis, but not to touch life. In Rev 9:20, these two woe-trumpets are called "plagues." Andreas of Cesarea, 500 A.D., held that the locusts mean evil spirits, permitted to come on earth and afflict men with various plagues.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997-2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)



The name Apollyon in Rev.9:11 is from the base Greek word apollumi, which is used to describe the perishing of the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit, per Rev.11 and Rev.17:8 & 11. The key revelation in that is the fact that it shows that beast is already... assigned to perish, and just about anyone who has even lightly studied their Bible easily knows that's about Satan himself, for ONLY Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish.

No flesh born man has been judged yet, or did you forget that God's Great White Throne Judgment of casting into the lake of fire is still yet future to us, and is when Satan is destroyed?

Uh, I don't read commentaries about the word until after God has taught me through the fellowship of the word and His Spirit, what He intended to say. I read the scriptures before I ever heard anyone teach them, and though I wasn't born again yet, the plain truths were evident in my first reading. However my carnal mind did not understand the spiritual significance of what I read or who the word applied to, or even how He applied it. It wasn't even a possibility that I should understand in my redeemed, but carnal state of being, those things spoken to the living and not to the dead, for I, like us all by nature, was still dead and a creature of wrath. I did make the mistake of trusting human teachers once, but there's a lesson for everyone in the Berreans and wisdom for the simple.

 

[michaelvpardo]

[QUOTE="Davy, post: 1040830, member:
No flesh born man has been judged yet, or did you forget that God's Great White Throne Judgment of casting into the lake of fire is still yet future to us, and is when Satan is destroyed?[/QUOTE]
So my friend, what was the judgment of the flood and who was judged?
Your scholarship is impressive, your understanding, not so much.

 

[Davy]

Uh, I don't read commentaries about the word until after God has taught me through the fellowship of the word and His Spirit, what He intended to say. I read the scriptures before I ever heard anyone teach them, and though I wasn't born again yet, the plain truths were evident in my first reading. However my carnal mind did not understand the spiritual significance of what I read or who the word applied to, or even how He applied it. It wasn't even a possibility that I should understand in my redeemed, but carnal state of being, those things spoken to the living and not to the dead, for I, like us all by nature, was still dead and a creature of wrath. I did make the mistake of trusting human teachers once, but there's a lesson for everyone in the Berreans and wisdom for the simple.

So? I wasn't baptized in Christ until 40. I struggled in God's Word before baptized too. Yet I always believed in God, and was raised in the Church, just not a strong Bible teaching type of Church. God gave me the urge by The Holy Spirit to discipline myself in His Word asking His help. So I don't rely on commentaries as final truth either, and I surely did not insinuate that I did.

But when you infer that an idea is 'novel' just because you don't yet understand, that's actually a sign that you need to get down to more Bible study, or put it on a shelf for another time. Or maybe you don't really understand what that word 'novel' actually means? It means new or interesting, fiction. That Revelation 9:11 is pointing to the devil himself as the king over the bottomless pit being some 'novel' idea, that is actually the real fiction.

 

[michaelvpardo]

So? I wasn't baptized in Christ until 40. I struggled in God's Word before baptized too. Yet I always believed in God, and was raised in the Church, just not a strong Bible teaching type of Church. God gave me the urge by The Holy Spirit to discipline myself in His Word asking His help. So I don't rely on commentaries as final truth either, and I surely did not insinuate that I did.

But when you infer that an idea is 'novel' just because you don't yet understand, that's actually a sign that you need to get down to more Bible study, or put it on a shelf for another time. Or maybe you don't really understand what that word 'novel' actually means? It means new or interesting, fiction. That Revelation 9:11 is pointing to the devil himself as the king over the bottomless pit being some 'novel' idea, that is actually the real fiction.

Or maybe you're just confused. The devil has no problem with taking credit for things that he didn't do. The devil is a liar and the father of all lies. The devil delights in mocking God by carnal imitation and perversions of the truth. Look around you friend. Didn't Nebuchadnezzar believe that he was the great builder of Babylon, the master of the land and all that he looked upon? The Lord set him right, and I promise with His guarantee that He'll set you right too, but understanding is not salvation. Knowing Him is salvation.

 

[Davy]

Or maybe you're just confused. The devil has no problem with taking credit for things that he didn't do. The devil is a liar and the father of all lies. The devil delights in mocking God by carnal imitation and perversions of the truth. Look around you friend. Didn't Nebuchadnezzar believe that he was the great builder of Babylon, the master of the land and all that he looked upon? The Lord set him right, and I promise with His guarantee that He'll set you right too, but understanding is not salvation. Knowing Him is salvation.

Oh come on, you mean you don't even know what Satan did when he first rebelled against God, even before Adam and Eve? God tells us in His Word, if you listen to Him. That's one of the ways to know the angel in Rev.9:11 is about Satan.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Oh come on, you mean you don't even know what Satan did when he first rebelled against God, even before Adam and Eve? God tells us in His Word, if you listen to Him. That's one of the ways to know the angel in Rev.9:11 is about Satan.

Since your understanding is so refined and purified by a life of affliction and the discipline of a loving heavenly Father, would you be so kind as to define a few terms for all of us blind and ignorant born again babes in Christ?
What is the spirit of error?
What is the spirit of antichrist?
Do you indeed believe these references are made of Satan?
Do you believe that Satan is omnipresent as the spirit of antichrist suggests, or do you assume he just gets around a lot with about 9,000,000,000 people on the planet?
Is Satan just the deciever or is he also self deceived?
Is Lucifer Satan?
I'm not sure how any of this glorifies Christ, but people always want someone to blame for their bad choices, so these are common questions from those who care about such things. What's the deal? Enlighten us.

 

[Davy]

Since your understanding is so refined and purified by a life of affliction and the discipline of a loving heavenly Father, would you be so kind as to define a few terms for all of us blind and ignorant born again babes in Christ?
What is the spirit of error?
What is the spirit of antichrist?
Do you indeed believe these references are made of Satan?
Do you believe that Satan is omnipresent as the spirit of antichrist suggests, or do you assume he just gets around a lot with about 9,000,000,000 people on the planet?
Is Satan just the deciever or is he also self deceived?
Is Lucifer Satan?
I'm not sure how any of this glorifies Christ, but people always want someone to blame for their bad choices, so these are common questions from those who care about such things. What's the deal? Enlighten us.

Did you learn to ask those questions in some seminary of man? I'm not here to glorify man's philosophical theories about God's Word, of which that's the kind of source (from men) where those type of speculative questions are derived.

 

[Mark Balicki]

I thought I would share my 2 cents with more to follow

 

[michaelvpardo]

Did you learn to ask those questions in some seminary of man? I'm not here to glorify man's philosophical theories about God's Word, of which that's the kind of source (from men) where those type of speculative questions are derived.

I asked those questions because I wanted you to answer them. I've taught Sunday school, preached messages before the congregation, but I've never attended a seminary and I'm not so easily labeled by those biased by contrived doctrine. I've read scripture with increasing regularity since before my first "communion " in the RCC and left that church at the age of 13 because of the obviously evident hypocrisy of many in authority there, as well as the obvious contradictions between sound doctrine derived from scripture and self justified practices derived from church dogma and human tradition. I can't make the claim to have understood scripture spiritually before the age of 39, but I've been taught by God since I understood and believed the gospel, and received Him by faith, through prayer, and according to His promise.
If you can add to my understanding, that's a good thing, and I have an understanding in accordance with the faith, and in accordance to scripture, but I'm quite sure that neither I or anyone else knows everything except God. We all grow in knowledge and understanding through fellowship with Him in His word. I've spent a long time in such fellowship, but the Lord doesn't generally show us any more than we can handle. You don't place a capstone on an unfinished temple. Or in more modern terms, you don't run electrical wiring until the walls and ceiling are framed or in place. You don't spackle until after you tape. There's an order to things both natural and spiritual. That includes our growth and maturity in Christ. No one matures on milk alone. Wisdom comes by the asking, and solid food is doing His work as Jesus said Himself. Who can say just who the Lord will choose to show us something? King David took the taunts of a fool as the rebuke of God. He understood more than most in his generation, was annointed with the Spirit of Christ, wrote large portions of scripture, but took the words of a jackal of a man as the rebuke of God. Wisdom is justified by her children.

 

[Davy]

I asked those questions because I wanted you to answer them. I've taught Sunday school, preached messages before the congregation, but I've never attended a seminary and I'm not so easily labeled by those biased by contrived doctrine.

You reveal that you think much of yourself; it's called false pride. That's why you'd bother to use words like "contrived doctrine", especially when someone directly quotes Scripture to you that you don't understand.

I've read scripture with increasing regularity since before my first "communion " in the RCC and left that church at the age of 13 because of the obviously evident hypocrisy of many in authority there, as well as the obvious contradictions between sound doctrine derived from scripture and self justified practices derived from church dogma and human tradition. I can't make the claim to have understood scripture spiritually before the age of 39, but I've been taught by God since I understood and believed the gospel, and received Him by faith, through prayer, and according to His promise.

That's good, we all need that Faith in The Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Doesn't give us the right to pump ourselves up though. God's Word as written is still... the measure. This also is why those like Martin Luther separated from men's doctrines that controlled the Church in his day. Today's times are no different with the Protestant faith either.

If you can add to my understanding, that's a good thing, and I have an understanding in accordance with the faith, and in accordance to scripture, but I'm quite sure that neither I or anyone else knows everything except God.

I don't claim to know everything either. But what I do know, I know, and proclaim it according to God's Word, allowing God's Word to interpret Itself. If that makes others see me like some know-it-all, then that's their mistake, er..., excuse, because that's all their doing, is making excuses for their lack of discipline in God's Word.

We all grow in knowledge and understanding through fellowship with Him in His word. I've spent a long time in such fellowship, but the Lord doesn't generally show us any more than we can handle. You don't place a capstone on an unfinished temple. Or in more modern terms, you don't run electrical wiring until the walls and ceiling are framed or in place. You don't spackle until after you tape. There's an order to things both natural and spiritual. That includes our growth and maturity in Christ. No one matures on milk alone. Wisdom comes by the asking, and solid food is doing His work as Jesus said Himself. Who can say just who the Lord will choose to show us something? King David took the taunts of a fool as the rebuke of God. He understood more than most in his generation, was annointed with the Spirit of Christ, wrote large portions of scripture, but took the words of a jackal of a man as the rebuke of God. Wisdom is justified by her children.

I don't deal in such thoughts, as that was the old me when I followed the world. Anyone of a secular mind can take one of the Bible personalities and go off on a philosophical tangent about that person, and not realize how far out of God's Word they are going. That's a dangerous game, to try and deduce what the Biblical personages might have thought, or been thinking, or why they did, or didn't do something. We must accept what God's Word says as written, and keep to that. If The Word tells us the who and why, then we are to be content with that, and not make up stories to entertain.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You reveal that you think much of yourself; it's called false pride. That's why you'd bother to use words like "contrived doctrine", especially when someone directly quotes Scripture to you that you don't understand.



That's good, we all need that Faith in The Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Doesn't give us the right to pump ourselves up though. God's Word as written is still... the measure. This also is why those like Martin Luther separated from men's doctrines that controlled the Church in his day. Today's times are no different with the Protestant faith either.



I don't claim to know everything either. But what I do know, I know, and proclaim it according to God's Word, allowing God's Word to interpret Itself. If that makes others see me like some know-it-all, then that's their mistake, er..., excuse, because that's all their doing, is making excuses for their lack of discipline in God's Word.



I don't deal in such thoughts, as that was the old me when I followed the world. Anyone of a secular mind can take one of the Bible personalities and go off on a philosophical tangent about that person, and not realize how far out of God's Word they are going. That's a dangerous game, to try and deduce what the Biblical personages might have thought, or been thinking, or why they did, or didn't do something. We must accept what God's Word says as written, and keep to that. If The Word tells us the who and why, then we are to be content with that, and not make up stories to entertain.

You reveal that you are judging your brothers and remain under the condemnation of the law. Don't worry though, God is going to fix that, but it might be through great tribulation and the fires of affliction (not something I would ever choose for myself.)

 

[Davy]

You reveal that you are judging your brothers and remain under the condemnation of the law. Don't worry though, God is going to fix that, but it might be through great tribulation and the fires of affliction (not something I would ever choose for myself.)

Not judging, REBUKING, which is different. And my Heavenly Father will certainly... fix your false pride, you can count on it!

 

[Nancy]

Hello Devin Wintch,

Have heard that the beast relates to Nero Cesar,

Revelation 13:18 "This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666."

This writing from John, is telling the reader of the (7 churches) to Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the

number of a man, that number is 666. It calls for wisdom to understand.

It is possible though that I am wrong but thought would throw this out there if you have not seen it or may have looked at it in a while.

Hello Matthew and welcome,
I have also heard of Nero's numbers adding up to 666 but then, so do many others. I see it as Nero's "position". I know that the word "Pope" used to be "Bishop of Rome" and also there were other monikers given that position so...you could be correct. John was most likely pretty careful not to write Nero's name so as not to put his brothers and sisters in danger. One thing for sure, we will find out one day soon!

 

[amigo de christo]

Never the less I think a false prophet is just that, proclaiming things that really don't come true. If it comes true then it is of God I think: Deuteronomy 18:22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

Be on guard as well my friends . For any and every false prophet does use truth but does so in a way that twists the truth to cause disobediance
And they can have dreams and visions and those too can come to pass .
Now for sure and for certain if one does claim thus sayeth the Lord and the thing does not come to pass , THEY have spoken a lie of their own heart .
But beware and be on gaurd . For a massive dueteronomy false prophet does arise .
Read deut chapter thirteen verses one through seven real closely . Real closely .
Even if the dream or vision does come to pass , DO NOT FOLLOW THEM , I the LORD do test you to prove
whether you love me with all your heart and mind . Watch out , be on gaurd , for many can have miracles
signs and wonders . Just as we too are warned of in revelation .
Thus the way to know them is to examine their fruits . The way to know them is by what they actually teach and what direction
they are actually guiding one into . IF its contrary to any way of what JESUS or the apostels taught . ITS A LIE FROM HADES
from the depths of hell itself . But many are caught up with miracles , signs and wonders , yet its like a heavy weight
a heavy burden for them to READ THE BIBLE . AND THAT SPELLS DISASTER . We must test all by the holy scrips .
Which means , OPEN BIBLES and START READING like the head is on fire . Cause we have us many decievers
decieving and being decieved . Always learning , always using words , stressing this or that with some version of greek or whatever ,
Yet their direction is leading all right away from the biblical Christ and right into the realm of the dragon . WATCH OUT
as i said , they all over the place . And do not come in as an enemy , but rather win the hearts of people , with smiles
with hugs , with carnal reasoning and a carnal love , a carnal unity , a carnal freedom , a carnal liberty . THEY LEADING FOLKS
right to perdition and the man of perdition .

 

[Davy]

....decieving and being decieved . Always learning , always using words , stressing this or that with some version of greek or whatever ,....

What do you mean by that?

You mean you don't trust anyone who refers to the Greek New Testament manuscripts? That certainly is sad, especially in this day and time when anyone can use simple Bible study tools like a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and look up Lexicon definitions from the Greek manuscripts, or even buy an Interlinear Bible of the Bible manuscripts for study. English Bibles are 'translations' ya know. It can be more dangerous when selecting which Bible one reads and believes than going into the manuscripts they were translated from, especially with modern English translations based on Wescott & Hort's translations.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Not judging, REBUKING, which is different. And my Heavenly Father will certainly... fix your false pride, you can count on it!

More sin and pride, false bravado and ignorance. You really need to start believing the scriptures, and I mean all of them, not just those that justify your sinful behavior and contempt for those God has called and chosen for His work. None of my statements about doctrine are sin. None of my boasting in the knowledge of Him or my relationship to Him are sin. Your rebuke of an elder is sin. Your judgment of a brother is sin. Even leaning on your own understanding is sin. Don't you understand these things? God said these things in His word, but the scripture is not God's standard, Jesus is God's standard, the word made flesh is God's standard, and His words are the basis of judgment, not mine and certainly not yours. The scripture is a sword judging the desire and thoughts of the heart. Do you know how it does this? Did you know that our use of scripture reveals our hidden thoughts and desires. Jesus was attacked by scribes and Pharisees that were well acquainted with scripture and even used scripture in their attacks, testing Him. Nothing says that these attackers didn't believe in God and clearly they did or they wouldn't have been scribes and Pharisees (those were choices they made in life, not assigned by birth.) Jesus called some of them sons of the devil and He would know. Even the devil knows and misapplies scripture to his own purpose. He's the accuser of the brethren my friend, that isn't your job. The written word exists to reveal God in the person of His Son, but there comes some point where His children are given authority, where the day star rises in your heart.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16
I'm not judging you in the sense that I believe you to be "unsaved", or even to be unregenerate, but I don't have a problem with questioning your understanding, given the carnality (worldly thinking) of your argument.
We are all called with that same upward calling in Christ, but we are not all called to the same ministry in the church, we don't all receive the same gifts of the Spirit even though we receive the same Spirit. Our gifts are given to meet the needs of the church during this lifetime and for ministry during the millennium to come (the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable), but all these things are according to God's election, not our own. We are all equal in Christ, but there are all levels of service within the body and envy isn't fitting to the servant of God, because the servant serves out of obligation, and the son serves out of love.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Matthew and welcome,
I have also heard of Nero's numbers adding up to 666 but then, so do many others. I see it as Nero's "position". I know that the word "Pope" used to be "Bishop of Rome" and also there were other monikers given that position so...you could be correct. John was most likely pretty careful not to write Nero's name so as not to put his brothers and sisters in danger. One thing for sure, we will find out one day soon!

The Devil/Satan was still running around at this point in time to; I believe before his demise in the Chapter 20:10; thank you for the insight. I hope one day to fully get a grasp on the revelation to understand it completely it took my teacher to go through verse by verse 1 whole year just on the book of the Revelation.

 

[Nancy]

The Devil/Satan was still running around at this point in time to; I believe before his demise in the Chapter 20:10; thank you for the insight. I hope one day to fully get a grasp on the revelation to understand it completely it took my teacher to go through verse by verse 1 whole year just on the book of the Revelation.

Yes Satan was surely running around then. And John spoke of "many antichrists". Very difficult book to grasp. Seems to bee too many ways to take it, should it be taken symbolically? I believe so but am not at all understanding the whole book. Revelation is not like any of the other books because it is all prophecy. We most surely need His "wisdom" to understand it.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes Satan was surely running around then. And John spoke of "many antichrists". Very difficult book to grasp. Seems to bee too many ways to take it, should it be taken symbolically? I believe so but am not at all understanding the whole book. Revelation is not like any of the other books because it is all prophecy. We most surely need His "wisdom" to understand it.

questionable preconceptions unwilling to be let go of set the reader up for a merry goose chase with clarity hidden in the trunk.