I have a question that remains unanswered:

[BarneyFife]

Wow! It is not about versions of history.

OK :cool:

Fortunately for us, the Jews are still with us preserving the pre-Trinitarian history.

Doesn't this make it all about versions of history? :)

 

[theefaith]

Dualism.

no duelist would be two Gods

fully God

fully man

he is God cos our savior is God and Christ is our savior
Lk 1:47

Heb 2:14 human nature

yet eternal

Heb 13:8

 

[theefaith]

Did he have two natures before the incarnation?

no only divine

his human nature
Flesh and blood came from mary

 

[Curtis]

It was prophesied that only a remnant of literal, fleshly Israel would be saved.
Romans 9:27-29.... Paul quoted Isaiah.....
"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel may be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold:
“If the Lord of armies had not left us descendants,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah.”


Jesus said....Matthew 21:42-44....
"Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
‘A stone which the builders rejected,
This has become the chief cornerstone;
This came about from the Lord,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruit. 44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and on whomever it falls, it will crush him.”. . . .
The Jews lost their place and God then invited Gentiles in to fill the vacancies left by the Jews who rejected their Messiah and had him murdered.

God's acceptance of the nation of Israel as his people was conditional from the beginning. He said to them....
"Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ " (Exodus 19:5-6)

In all their history, obedience from that nation was very sporadic.
Paul wrote quite a bit about being "Jewish", and so did the prophets.
Romans 9:25-26...Paul says....
"as He also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Romans 9:6-7...
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants..."

Romans 2:28-29...
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God."

So who is "Israel" to God now?....not the natural Jews of whom Jesus himself said..." the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruit"

Paul, in speaking to the Galatians spoke of the "Israel of God"(Galatians 6:16)....but he was referring to the disciples of Jesus who were made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. So there was a new "nation of Israel" formed by God in connection with his son....this was a spiritual nation, chosen by God rather than just being born a son of Abraham.

The apostate Jewish nation was 'abandoned' by God when they murdered the one sent to save them....(Matthew 23:37-39)

Paul refuted everything you claim with the first two verses of Romans 11.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Wow! It is not about versions of history. The fact is Isaiah was a monotheist. All the Bible authors were monotheists. Their writing must be read within that context.

After 1,000 years Trinitarian’s attempted to revise the meaning of Isaiah. Fortunately for us, the Jews are still with us preserving the pre-Trinitarian history. Fortunately, the words are still there.

Trinitarians are monotheists and have the same religion as the Israelites of old, and are in fact Israel. Those who you call "Jews" are in a different religion entirely and have nothing to do with Isaiah. Fortunately for us the real Jews (the Church) are preserving the history, and the words are still there.

 

[theefaith]

Wow! It is not about versions of history. The fact is Isaiah was a monotheist. All the Bible authors were monotheists. Their writing must be read within that context.

After 1,000 years Trinitarian’s attempted to revise the meaning of Isaiah. Fortunately for us, the Jews are still with us preserving the pre-Trinitarian history. Fortunately, the words are still there.

Now the Jews who killed Christ are the great arbiters of truth

1. 1 Timothy 3:15
   But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus is a savior, but I am going to have to ask you to define eternal. The Bible teaches that Jesus is immortal, which means he will last forever, is that what you meant by that term?

CORRECT that first line my friend . JESUS IS NOT A , A , A , A savoir . HE IS THE ONLY ONLY ONLY SAVOIR .
Correct that line . Correct it fast . JESUS ALONE IS THE ONLY SAVOIR , IS THE SAVOIR . ALL ELSE , any other religion
any other mindset , comes from satan and is dangerous , deadly and deceptive and shall save none but rather shall condmen them .
I AM WORE Out with the PC world and the churches that at most try and say JESUS IS only A WAY to GOD .
NO , HE is the ONLY ONLY ONLY and ONLY ONLY ONLY and ONLY ONLY ONLY and ONLY ONLY ONLY and ONLY ONLY ........
I think you catch the drift of what i am saying .

 

[amigo de christo]

That is the hill i choose to die on no matter the cost . JESUS IS NOT A savoir , BUT THE ONLY SAVOIR . LEt the world and its pc false love
and lovers do to me as they will . I WILL DIE long before i change my mind , and MAY I DIE LONG BEFORE I DO .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you know what this prophetic vision is depicting? It is the coronation of God’s son, anointing him to become King of his Father’ kingdom.That event did not become reality till "the time of the end".
Calling him "one like a son of man" is indicating his human condition....but this scene is in heaven.

Because son of man is also a messianic title.

Everything in the book of Daniel is prophetic concerning the “time of the end”. No one would understand its contents until then, (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)....we are in the "time of the end" right now.....in fact I believe that we are3 nearing the very end of that period when the judgment will come...but not before the greatest tribulation in the history of mankind takes place. (Matthew 24:21-22) It is brewing as we speak.
Do you believe that most Christians are ready for this? Have they separated themselves from the world in order to see it? Or are most too tangled up in their politics to notice? Too comfortable in their faith to even entertain the fact that their worship might be "in vain"? (Matthew 15:7-9; Matthew 7:21-23)

that would be incorrect for it speaks of Bavbylon being conquerd by the Medes and Persians, and then they conquered by Greece. Then the division of the Grecian Empire into four kingdoms and th ewars of those kingdoms. Then the conquest of tghem by the fourth beast which stays until thge Son of Man returns! It started with teh Romans and ends with the Antichrist.

A movie depicting Biblical things can skew the truth like no other......like all the other (especially recent) Biblical epics, it is told according to the script writer's preferences. It has no impact on the way I view the Bible.....because it alone tells the story. I like to let it do its job.....God provides the understanding......but the devil lurks to provide an alternative....in fact many alternatives because confusion just serves his purpose.

do you mean like people writing a reinterpretation of SCripture to fit their agenda? I agree.

The Jews were expecting a Jewish warrior Messiah, who would deal with Rome and free them to become his people once again. What they failed to recognize is why God allowed their homeland to be taken from them again. He had done it before. God only abandoned them when they left him, in pursuit of their own interests. Did not their own scriptures tell them that when you disobey God, he abandons you to your enemies? They never got it because of pride in their relationship to Abraham.....John the Baptist told them off. They thought they were untouchable.....they were wrong.

some held to that- but the fact that tnes of thousands of Jews got saved and received jesus as Messiah, shows that many also were not.

The axe fell, and the Jews lost their place in God's Kingdom, because they never learned the lessons from their history. Christendom has fallen into the same trap. She too has replaced the Bible with the "traditions of men", making "Christianity" unrecognizable from its first century roots. But this was not unexpected because Jesus and his apostles foretold it. The "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity spread out into the whole world. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)

I know how I search to determine truth from reinterpretation of Scripture. but how do you sort out error from our first century roots?

 

[Curtis]

Lets just say that you are correct in thinking Jesus is God, then why would he not teach it Curt? Do you not think it better to obey his teachings, rather than what you read into it?

It’s all over the Bible, God does teach who Jesus is.

Jesus didn’t focus on His divinity, because He didn’t come to earth with the purpose of being God, He emptied Himself to become a man, and become a humble servant, (Philadelphia 2:5-7), and His purpose on earth was to die on a cross for our sins, and He correctly focused on that.

He did plainly teach He is the son of God, and the Jews knew something you won’t accept - that to be a begotten son of God means to be the divine offspring of God - which means the son of God is also God the Son - which is why scripture shows them wanting to stone Jesus to death “for making Himself out to be God”, when He said He’s Gods son.

Yet a few times He did plainly state His divinity, with His unmistakable I AM declaration that “before Abraham was, I AM”, and, “he who has seen me, has seen the Father”.

Maranatha

 

[Ronald Nolette]

well, imo there are problems with that, as now you are saying that Jesus came declaring that He was Yah, also the “indefinite” son of man defined in (primarily) Ezekiel, and even used to refer to Ezekiel, is now made into the definite “one like a son of man” in Daniel, so i dunno.

got a link that might help establish your pov? I looked for one yesterday, had no luck
Son of man | Wikiwand

Well to the Jews it was a Messianic tritle. I will take their belief in it. Even as you said th eSon of Man stands before th eancient of days in heaven! Who is it but jesus Himself. It is how He worded the phrase Son of Man that would let the heareers know he was speaking of Messiah (Himself)

 

[Curtis]

The apostate Jewish nation was 'abandoned' by God when they murdered the one sent to save them....(Matthew 23:37-39)

Amo 9:13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when the plowman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it.

Amo 9:14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.

Amo 9:15 I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the LORD your God.


1 Samuel 12:22 (ESV)

22 For the LORD will not forsake his people, for his great name's sake, because it has pleased the LORD to make you a people for himself.


Psalms 89:31-37 (ESV)

31 if they violate my statutes and do not keep my commandments,

32 then I will punish their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes,

33 but I will not remove from him my steadfast love or be false to my faithfulness.

34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

35 Once for all I have sworn by my holiness; I will not lie to David.

36 His offspring shall endure forever, his throne as long as the sun before me.

37 Like the moon it shall be established forever, a faithful witness in the skies.” Selah

Psalms 94:14 (ESV)

14 For the LORD will not forsake his people; he will not abandon his heritage;


Jeremiah 31:36-37 (ESV)

36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.”

37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD.”

Jeremiah 33:24-26 (ESV)

24 “Have you not observed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose’? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

25 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth,

26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.”

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well to the Jews it was a Messianic tritle. I will take their belief in it. Even as you said th eSon of Man stands before th eancient of days in heaven! Who is it but jesus Himself. It is how He worded the phrase Son of Man that would let the heareers know he was speaking of Messiah (Himself)

pretty sure He would have been stoned the moment He referred to Himself that way, were that true?
Also the Ezekiel passages seem to specifically refute that, else why is Ezekiel referred to as "son of man?"

and i like Jews well enough, so dont get me wrong here, but they are basically the group Jesus made fun of, even to telling them "all of your Magnificent Temple are about to be turned into rubble"

 

[bbyrd009]

Lets just say that you are correct in thinking Jesus is God, then why would he not teach it Curt? Do you not think it better to obey his teachings, rather than what you read into it?

so iow "no" i guess...

It’s all over the Bible, God does teach who Jesus is.

Jesus didn’t focus on His divinity, because He didn’t come to earth with the purpose of being God, He emptied Himself to become a man, and become a humble servant, (Philadelphia 2:5-7), and His purpose on earth was to die on a cross for our sins, and He correctly focused on that.

He did plainly teach He is the son of God, and the Jews knew something you won’t accept - that to be a begotten son of God means to be the divine offspring of God - which means the son of God is also God the Son - which is why scripture shows them wanting to stone Jesus to death “for making Himself out to be God”, when He said He’s Gods son.

Yet a few times He did plainly state His divinity, with His unmistakable I AM declaration that “before Abraham was, I AM”, and, “he who has seen me, has seen the Father”.

Maranatha

 

[Abaxvahl]

pretty sure He would have been stoned the moment He referred to Himself that way, were that true?
Also the Ezekiel passages seem to specifically refute that, else why is Ezekiel referred to as "son of man?"

As for stoning Him possibly, but there had been before and after Him many Messiahs in that era that claimed it. Also with Ezekiel the title has been translated by people as "human child" or "human being" or "humanoid," while it can have specific meanings it is most often just a way of saying "human" or "something like a human" just like "Son of Adam" or "born of a woman" and so on.

 

[Curtis]

pretty sure He would have been stoned the moment He referred to Himself that way, were that true?
Also the Ezekiel passages seem to specifically refute that, else why is Ezekiel referred to as "son of man?"

and i like Jews well enough, so dont get me wrong here, but they are basically the group Jesus made fun of, even to telling them "all of your Magnificent Temple are about to be turned into rubble"

You do know Jesusvis Jewish, all the apostles were Jewish, and the entire first church in Jerusalem was a Jewish church, right?

 

[BarneyFife]

no only divine

his human nature
Flesh and blood came from mary

 

[Ronald Nolette]

pretty sure He would have been stoned the moment He referred to Himself that way, were that true?
Also the Ezekiel passages seem to specifically refute that, else why is Ezekiel referred to as "son of man?"

and i like Jews well enough, so dont get me wrong here, but they are basically the group Jesus made fun of, even to telling them "all of your Magnificent Temple are about to be turned into rubble"

The Pharisees did try to stone Him once for calling HImself the son of Man.

As for Ezekiel- once again grammar and construct matters.

Well Jesus was a jew and the apostles were all Jews and the early church was all Jewish. Seems many believed THE Son of Man was indeed the Messiah spoken of in Daniel.

 

[bbyrd009]

You do know Jesusvis Jewish, all the apostles were Jewish, and the entire first church in Jerusalem was a Jewish church, right?

sure, but that doesnt mean that they werent deceived? Regardless, i see no reason not to take "son of man" at face value, as defined pretty clearly in Ezekiel

 

[bbyrd009]

The Pharisees did try to stone Him once for calling HImself the son of Man.

As for Ezekiel- once again grammar and construct matters.

Well Jesus was a jew and the apostles were all Jews and the early church was all Jewish. Seems many believed THE Son of Man was indeed the Messiah spoken of in Daniel.

well, you say grammar and construct matters, right, but Jesus only Quoted the indefinite "son of man," at least as near as i can tell?