I Wake Up, The Girdle Of Truth Is First On! (My spiritual belt)

[amadeus]

Drinking alcohol is however generally discouraged by the Bible (Proverbs 20:1, Proverbs 23:29-34, Ephesians 5:18).

Those verses speak pretty clearly to me specifically only of the excessive intake of alcohol, not really opposing an occasional casual drink of a little as Paul puts it for your stomach's sake. Each person must, however, come to their own understanding [conviction] with God on this.

 

[justbyfaith]

Those verses speak pretty clearly to me specifically only of the excessive intake of alcohol, not really opposing an occasional casual drink of a little as Paul puts it for your stomach's sake. Each person must, however, come to their own understanding [conviction] with God on this.

And also, opening the door to this sin very often leads to bondage/slavery to it.

And I would say also that if you have liberty to drink, have it to yourself before God (Romans 14:21-23)...don't flaunt your liberty in front of someone who might be stumbled by it.

But then, if the only time you drink is when you are alone, it is a sure sign that you are an alcoholic.

 

[Helen]

I would only suggest that you look up the scriptures referenced.

I've always hate alcohol ...tried it many times.

But I agree with @jshiii ...Paul even tells Timothy to "take a little alcohol..."
Jesus did not turn water into unfermented grape juice...

1 Cor 10 " All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.....
....Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? "

Excess is what is warned about...and drunkenness... not the beer or wine in and of itself.

 

[Helen]

Justbyfaith- If he had said he had loads of beer, and drank everyday I would grasp your concern , but it was ' a couple of beers while cutting the grass ' - and he mentioned that in context of relaying how the battle between condemnation and conviction can get mixed up.
I don't always understand this forum, people bounce on others for all kinds of reasons, playing Christian cops - and yet in many of the threads people are arguing between one another over all kinds of things and don't take into account how their words could create issues for others.
You obviously believe drinking is wrong , on any level ( that's how your posts have come across ) - obviously I may have interpreted that wrongly.
Not everyone , including Jesus, would agree with you ( hence my point about him turning water into wine ) Would the story, and testamony of that miracle be wise to relay to an alcoholic,maybe not, but it was placed in scripture to be read and conveyed. It's the context and meaning that is important - that is what I would prefer to focus on.
Rita

Amen girlie.

A legalist is someone who tries to put what they believe that God has spoken to them...upon others.

If God wanted everyone to be cookie cutter the same...He would have made every tree and every flower the same.. Not one of His childen is the same...
Jesus had lots to say about those who bound heavy weights on other peoples shoulders...

 

[Helen]

And also, opening the door to this sin very often leads to bondage/slavery to it.

And I would say also that if you have liberty to drink, have it to yourself before God (Romans 14:21-23)...don't flaunt your liberty in front of someone who might be stumbled by it.

But then, if the only time you drink is when you are alone, it is a sure sign that you are an alcoholic.

In my many weeks away from the Site I had forgotten what a wet blanket you can often be.
He wasn't talking about being drunk...he was talking about TWO beers..!!!
Get off your religious high horse and lighten up a bit.

.

 

[amadeus]

And also, opening the door to this sin very often leads to bondage/slavery to it.

This is so of many things. Did you know that a single can of Coca Cola is worse for your body than a single can of beer?

"For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence." Rom 14:20

"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." I Cor 6:14

And I would say also that if you have liberty to drink, have it to yourself before God (Romans 14:21-23)...don't flaunt your liberty in front of someone who might be stumbled by it.

Without a doubt, but this so of many things. Too much food is also called gluttony and is not a good thing. Watching too much TV [even programs without evil content] will also hinder our walk with God. Should we try to list all of the things which might cause some to stumble and forbid them?

But then, if the only time you drink is when you are alone, it is a sure sign that you are an alcoholic.

Even though that may often be the case, I would hardly move from warning to condemnation of a person who does it.

 

[Giuliano]

Speaking of the Law of Moses and "strong drink" reminds me of the passage about tithes. People were told to set aside that produce and/or money, not to give it all to the Temple, but to hold a celebration. Since the Levites didn't inherit land the way others did, they were also to help the Levites celebrate and anyone who was poor. If they lived too far away from the place of celebration, they could sell the produce and then use the cash to buy whatever they wanted. That included strong drink. . . . Somehow the idea of tithing got changed into giving a tenth of your income to a church.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

But I agree with @jshiii ...Paul even tells Timothy to "take a little alcohol..."

For medicinal purposes.

 

[justbyfaith]

Speaking of the Law of Moses and "strong drink" reminds me of the passage about tithes. People were told to set aside that produce and/or money, not to give it all to the Temple, but to hold a celebration. Since the Levites didn't inherit land the way others did, they were also to help the Levites celebrate and anyone who was poor. If they lived too far away from the place of celebration, they could sell the produce and then use the cash to buy whatever they wanted. That included strong drink. . . . Somehow the idea of tithing got changed into giving a tenth of your income to a church.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. . . .

It doesn't change the fact of what is written in Proverbs 20:1...

Pro 20:1, Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This is wisdom from Solomon.

Now it is also true that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty...

Gal 5:13, For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Drunkenness is cited as a work of the flesh...

And I would also say that there are those who drink, who say that they are not getting drunk, but they are getting buzzed...

To me, that is the same as drunk.

And of course, I am not their judge, Jesus is...

However one should consider the possibility that Jesus' judgment could be the same as mine...

Especially since Proverbs 20:1 is in His word.

 

[Giuliano]

It doesn't change the fact of what is written in Proverbs 20:1...

Pro 20:1, Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

This is wisdom from Solomon.

That verse is completely true. I've known several people who got terribly deceived by booze. I was myself once.

Now it is also true that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty...

Gal 5:13, For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only usenot liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Drunkenness is cited as a work of the flesh...

And I would also say that there are those who drink, who say that they are not getting drunk, but they are getting buzzed...

To me, that is the same as drunk.

And of course, I am not their judge, Jesus is...

However one should consider the possibility that Jesus' judgment could be the same as mine...

Especially since Proverbs 20:1 is in His word.

I think we should we cautious about overdoing anything. There was a time when I drank almost a fifth of vodka every day. I know now why I did that. Some people would have told me I was alcoholic. Today though, I can take it or leave it. I have bottles of booze downstairs that I have had for years.

People with problems who drink to feel better are really at risk. They may feel better for a short while; but it doesn't solve their problems. And if they get drunk enough, they can get violent because of their resentment towards others that needs to be fixed when they're sober. Even worse, their pile of problems gets higher -- they're not solving the old ones, and new ones come along including the problems of drinking too much.

 

[justbyfaith]

In my many weeks away from the Site I had forgotten what a wet blanket you can often be.
He wasn't talking about being drunk...he was talking about TWO beers..!!!
Get off your religious high horse and lighten up a bit.

Be careful about what you say to people.

Back when I was around 17 or 18, I was even more of a "wet blanket" than I am now...preaching against fornication to High School Students in the year 1990. (I often got the response in those days, "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged!"...I consider it to be the unbeliever's favorite verse; in ignorance of such passages as Isaiah 56:1-2 (kjv), Philippians 1:9 (kjv), and John 7:24).

When someone told me to "get off your high horse"...it served as one of the primary factors among many that devastated me to the point of having my first mental breakdown...as one thing after another hit me as in the case of Job. It may have even been the straw that broke the camel's back.

You may not like people who preach righteousness...(they are all "wet blankets" after all)...but I am also certain that you would not like the world if we were not around as a preserving agent in it.

We are the salt of the earth...and salt has the effect of irritating wounds when applied.

(it also has the effect of healing those same wounds; and of being a preserving agent in rotting meat).

 

[Helen]

Be careful about what you say to people.

Back when I was around 17 or 18, I was even more of a "wet blanket" than I am now...preaching against fornication to High School Students in the year 1990. (I often got the response in those days, "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged!"...I consider it to be the unbeliever's favorite verse; in ignorance of such passages as Isaiah 56:1-2 (kjv), Philippians 1:9 (kjv), and John 7:24).

When someone told me to "get off your high horse"...it served as one of the primary factors among many that devastated me to the point of having my first mental breakdown...as one thing after another hit me as in the case of Job. It may have even been the straw that broke the camel's back.

You may not like people who preach righteousness...(they are all "wet blankets" after all)...but I am also certain that you would not like the world if we were not around as a preserving agent in it.

We are the salt of the earth...and salt has the effect of irritating wounds when applied.

(it also has the effect of healing those same wounds; and of being a preserving agent in rotting meat).

I understand what you are saying...but you can't put "your" rules on other people. It is one thing to care about them, but it's another thing when you expect to do everything you do and walk by YOUR standards.

Have you forgotten the book of Hosea God told him to go and marry a whore and make her a house wife!! I wonder what the rest of the prophets thought of that...I'm sure they condemned him.

Like anything else in life we are called to 'say our bit' and then we shut up and if we are diligent then we continue to PRAY.

Much more is accomplished by PRAYING than it is by SAYING!!

God bless you in all you put your hand to.
You have a good heart I know that.

 

[justbyfaith]

Thank you, @"ByGrace".

I know that I cannot put my rules on other people...I am however concerned about what I consider to be licentiousness in the church.

I think a good meter for all of us to go by is...

1Co 6:12, All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

As such, it is certainly lawful...and therefore not prohibited...for me to drink alcohol.

But the question I should ask concerning any behaviour that I wish to engage in is...Is it expedient?...and/or...will it bring me into subjection to its rule?

I do believe that alcohol falls under the category of the latter for the most part.

If you are one of those that can drink alcohol without it bringing you under its power, then more power to you.

You have faith...have it to yourself before the Lord and don't stumble your brother by flaunting your liberty (Romans 14:21-23).

It remains that if someone drinks alone it is a sure sign that they are an alcoholic (and therefore do not have power over it as they may think).

 

[justbyfaith]

I know that I have presented a catch-22 to those who desire to drink.

 

[Butterfly]

Don't think you have offered a catch 22 for me , You have clearly reached the conclusion for yourself that you do not consider it wise for you to drink- that is fine. I have personally reach my own baseline, with a clear conscience that allows for alcohol , but very rarely an definately not much.
It's not true that ALL people who drink alone are alcoholics - I ocassionly drink alone , purely and simply because I do not have a partner or anyone to drink with ! ( and I have no problem just having one drink, the desire to drink and drink is beyond me ) So perhaps it is unwise to blanket judge everyone )
The issue here is that you chose to jump on someone else for having a different baseline - someone who has reached different conclusions. I would still like you, or anyone else who believes alcohol is wrong, to address the issue of Jesus turning water in to wine, and the fact that Jesus and his apostles, took wine at the Passover - it's still achohol. You could argue that both were celebrations , but that alcohol would still have influenced them. They would have known the ' wisdom of Solomon ' - and yet they did not decline.
I think my issue is with those who say all drink in wrong , and looks down on anyone that has any alcohol- I completely understand why The Salvation Army decline to drink, they are working with alcoholics and I get why you don't drink, so I don't have a problem with those choices.
Rita

 

[justbyfaith]

It's not true that ALL people who drink alone are alcoholics

It is definitely true...

I would still like you, or anyone else who believes alcohol is wrong, to address the issue of Jesus turning water in to wine, and the fact that Jesus and his apostles, took wine at the Passover - it's still achohol.

I do believe that it is primarily alcoholics who use these things as an excuse to drink when it is simply not expedient to do so...

If you are not drinking for the buzz, then drink soda!

But if you are drinking for the buzz, then consider that you might be a lover of pleasure more than a lover of the Lord.

 

[Butterfly]

It is definitely true...



I do believe that it is primarily alcoholics who use these things as an excuse to drink when it is simply not expedient to do so...

If you are not drinking for the buzz, then drink soda!

But if you are drinking for the buzz, then consider that you might be a lover of pleasure more than a lover of the Lord.

Seriously, you are judging me to be an alcoholic when I may have about three drinks in a 12month period - Wow , I think those comments say more about you then me !!
You, my friend , have not answered the question I asked - you have skirted around the question yourself.
So, let me get this straight, in your eyes ANYONE who has a drink is drinking because they get a buzz,and because they are an alcoholic........... Wow, I would love to watch you discuss that with Jesus and the apostles !!
As for being a lover of pleasure, are you honestly saying that you never eat or drink anything that you enjoy - and that if you get pleasure out of something it automatically means you are not a lover of the Lord. What a load of rubbish !!!!!
Rita

 

[Nancy]

Seriously, you are judging me to be an alcoholic when I may have about three drinks in a 12month period - Wow , I think those comments say more about you then me !!
You, my friend , have not answered the question I asked - you have skirted around the question yourself.
So, let me get this straight, in your eyes ANYONE who has a drink is drinking because they get a buzz,and because they are an alcoholic........... Wow, I would love to watch you discuss that with Jesus and the apostles !!
As for being a lover of pleasure, are you honestly saying that you never eat or drink anything that you enjoy - and that if you get pleasure out of something it automatically means you are not a lover of the Lord. What a load of rubbish !!!!!
Rita

Hi Rita,
Some are still in bondage and assume pretty much, well everything about another without knowing anything about them. If you like a glass of wine or two with dinner have them...you are not getting "drunk". If one of your guests has an issue with it...do not drink in front of them...that would be placing a stumbling block before that person. So tired of legalism...it strips the joy of our freedom in Christ away. We cannot mix law with grace, ever. We will all be judged on what we have done so, I wish "people" would stop already, they are NOT our judge. Sheesh.

 

[Butterfly]

It's okay Nancy I wasnt bothered by the comments , well not from a ' guilt ' point of view - the 'legalistic ' attitude drives me nuts, but I actually feel sorry for those with those attitudes - oh course they think they are just sooooo good and so much better than others and consider themselves right about everything !

 

[Nancy]

These are the scripture verses that comes to mind here:
21 "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything to cause your brother to stumble."
22 "Keep your belief about such matters between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves."
23 But the one who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that is not from faith is sin."