If all of the Church is the Bride of Christ who are the guests?

[amadeus]

Concerning the guests I offer post #42 and #43.

This wedding and feast are, I believe, a real wedding and feast. There is a best man. (John 3:29) "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled." The best man will be John the Baptist.

There is one who will give the bride, the Church, away. (2 Cor. 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." Paul gives the bride away.

Stranger

OK, the best man certainly would fit with the "friend" and since the Baptist is speaking in that verse, it could well be himself. The second verse with Paul giving the bride away also fills in another blank. I wish I could say it was all clear to me, but not yet, especially with the perception of it I already had. Thank you again for your help, although I know of course that it was not just for me.

 

[michaelvpardo]

But, would it not be necessary for a believer to put on those things mentioned in the verses I quoted... whatever they really are? God knows and He will help us to be attired properly if we ask for His assistance. This is my point.

Certainly there are some who believe in God, but unwilling to do what this verse would require of them:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1



While the parable may mean in part what you indicate, it may mean more than that. I am not able to answer your final question to my own satisfaction, so I will leave it alone.

well, the parable doesn't call the guests believers, and says that they are compelled to attend.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Who are the servants that are sent to bring in the guest?

Concerning the one without the proper garment: king with a lower case k?

Zephaniah 1:8 KJV
[8] And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

the king in the parable is unidentified. that's why its a parable, not a prophecy (though it is in part prophetic.)

 

[amadeus]

well, the parable doesn't call the guests believers, and says that they are compelled to attend.

Indeed, as parents may compel their children to attend worship services but they cannot make them believers. Similarly, society may compel people to attend services to avoid criticism. While it is less so than it once was, many people have clung to the title Christian, because it opens doors to them that would have been closed to agnostics or atheists or other non-Christians.

It is still God that gives the increase, but individuals must choose the right direction before He will in fact increase them.

 

[Helen]

Q Aren't all the parable proceeded with the line " The kingdom of heaven is like.." ?
If so Jesus is painting pictures of the Kingdom for us to see.
Therefore is it not an invitation for us to choose now, to be where we would wish and hope to be In The Kingdom?
Who chooses to be a server at the wedding banquet rather than a guest?
Who chooses to be a guest at the wedding rather than The Bride?...who goes all the way into the inner chamber with her lord?
I personally believe that everything is an invitation into the bridal chamber, into union and fellowship with Him.
It is always about laying down our life and choosing His.
The 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' to me , will be when worldly Christians see what they could have had, yet do not, because they lived with one foot in the kingdom and one foot in the world. Foolishly thinking that they can have the best of both.
Which takes us back to "The kingdom of heaven is like a Sower who went forth to sow. " Not all the seed made it to 100 fold..."But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." Matt 13:8
...it shows 30 fold, 60 fold and then the 100 fold. Why shoot for 30 fold when we could be 100 fold.

 

[amadeus]

Q Aren't all the parable proceeded with the line " The kingdom of heaven is like.." ?
If so Jesus is painting pictures of the Kingdom for us to see.
Therefore is it not an invitation for us to choose now, to be where we would wish and hope to be In The Kingdom?
Who chooses to be a server at the wedding banquet rather than a guest?
Who chooses to be a guest at the wedding rather than The Bride?...who goes all the way into the inner chamber with her lord?
I personally believe that everything is an invitation into the bridal chamber, into union and fellowship with Him.
It is always about laying down our life and choosing His.
The 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' to me , will be when worldly Christians see what they could have had, yet do not, because they lived with one foot in the kingdom and one foot in the world. Foolishly thinking that they can have the best of both.
Which takes us back to "The kingdom of heaven is like a Sower who went forth to sow. " Not all the seed made it to 100 fold..."But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." Matt 13:8
...it shows 30 fold, 60 fold and then the 100 fold. Why shoot for 30 fold when we could be 100 fold.

Absolutely! We all should be striving to make the Bride, which is the best place for us, is it not? Some are likely to come up short on that, but isn't it better to end up among the clean or even the unclean animals in the lower levels of the ark built by Noah [having missed out on being at the top] rather than being left outside where they were all killed? Say what you will about those unclean and clean animals, they were saved?

Recall this verse:

"She [Wisdom]hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:2

To make the Bride, I believe, a person must kill all of their own beasts, both the unclean ones and the clean ones. Did Jesus not provide the means for whosoever will to do it?

 

[Helen]

Good one @amadeus

 

[amadeus]

It may be obvious to any one who has read my posts on this thread that I believe that the Bride is not the same as the Church. Not all of the Church will be saved as I understand it, but all of the Bride will come out of the Church. Everyone in the Bride will be saved. Others not in the Bride will also be saved, but the Bride really is the "cream of the crop" so to speak. I will add more on this as it comes to me.

 

[Helen]

It may be obvious to any one who has read my posts on this thread that I believe that the Bride is not the same as the Church. Not all of the Church will be saved as I understand it, but all of the Bride will come out of the Church. Everyone in the Bride will be saved. Others not in the Bride will also be saved, but the Bride really is the "cream of the crop" so to speak. I will add more on this as it comes to me.

I am 100% with you on that and have believed that for years.
I have said it over the years in different ways...but I always get the kick back cry of "elitism" I have found Christians hate hearing that we are not all 'one happy, clappy' Blob in heaven, everyone equal...all you have to do is say yes to Jesus and you are 'in.' Now ride on a bed of roses until we arrive in heaven.

What they do with the parable of the Talents I don't know...Jesus shows us so often that we strive for the best, laying down our life is not for His benefit but ours!!
Living 100% for God in this life is for our benefit not His.

There was a reason He took Peter James and John up the Mount of Transfiguration.
He saw something in them that He didn't see in the others...or, the others was off doing something else that day..and Peter, James and John were the only one attentive...who knows. Acts tells us " Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..."
God doesn't chose, we choose.

I have heard that the correct rendition of "Many are called but few are chosen."
Is " Many are called, but few choose to be the chosen."
True or not I can't remember...but it sure makes good preaching!

 

[bbyrd009]

It may be obvious to any one who has read my posts on this thread that I believe that the Bride is not the same as the Church. Not all of the Church will be saved as I understand it, but all of the Bride will come out of the Church. Everyone in the Bride will be saved. Others not in the Bride will also be saved, but the Bride really is the "cream of the crop" so to speak. I will add more on this as it comes to me.

sure seems weird, not that i am any clearer on this one. it is a weird parable

 

[amadeus]

I am 100% with you on that and have believed that for years.
I have said it over the years in different ways...but I always get the kick back cry of "elitism" I have found Christians hate hearing that we are not all 'one happy, clappy' Blob in heaven, everyone equal...all you have to do is say yes to Jesus and you are 'in.' Now ride on a bed of roses until we arrive in heaven.

They want the final favorable solution to be theirs now without having to sacrifice the things in this carnal life they believe are fun or important.

They don't like the meaning of this verse:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.: Rom 12:1

What they do with the parable of the Talents I don't know...Jesus shows us so often that we strive for the best, laying down our life is not for His benefit but ours!!
Living 100% for God in this life is for our benefit not His.

It is also for His because He does love us and wants all of us to receive all of the rewards He has available.

There was a reason He took Peter James and John up the Mount of Transfiguration.
He saw something in them that He didn't see in the others...or, the others was off doing something else that day..and Peter, James and John were the only one attentive...who knows. Acts tells us " Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..."
God doesn't chose, we choose.

I have heard that the correct rendition of "Many are called but few are chosen."
Is " Many are called, but few choose to be the chosen."
True or not I can't remember...but it sure makes good preaching!

When I hear or read that verse I am always reminded of this verse that goes with it:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. " Rev 17:14

 

[amadeus]

sure seems weird, not that i am any clearer on this one. it is a weird parable

We don't have to be so clear on it after all,do we?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

We expecting sometime the "face to face" and the second touch which makes what we see in men clearer, but the time is not ours, but God's

 

[michaelvpardo]

OK, the best man certainly would fit with the "friend" and since the Baptist is speaking in that verse, it could well be himself. The second verse with Paul giving the bride away also fills in another blank. I wish I could say it was all clear to me, but not yet, especially with the perception of it I already had. Thank you again for your help, although I know of course that it was not just for me.

Now, I'm a little prejudiced in my thinking because I was named after the archangel, but in the book of Daniel who was it that alone stood with the Lord against His enemies and who is it that takes his stand for Israel and the church at the time of the judgment?

 

[michaelvpardo]

(continued from post #42)

In the parable, after the second rejection of the offer of the kingdom and the abuse shown the kings servants, the king was angry with those and their city and destroyed them and it. (Matt. 22:7-8) I believe this speaks to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Then in the parable the king turned away from those originally bidden and turned to others. (Matt. 22:9-10) I believe those bidden were the Jews and those who are now turned to are the Gentiles.

Though this follows the pattern of the new Gospel of Grace going out to the Gentiles, which we see with Peter in (Acts 10), I don't believe the Gospel of Grace is what is being addresed in (Matt. 22:9-10) I believe it will be still the Gospel of the kingdom which will once again be preached in the Tribulation period. (Matt. 24:14) And it shall take us all the way to the end. (14).

So, in this interpretation I have learned, the Church is not in view here. By the time of the preaching of the Kingdom during the Tribulation period, (Matt. 24:14) the Church, or the Bride is gone. Raptured out. I know, I know, no one likes the Rapture. But I hold to it. Now the Bride is with the Bridegroom in Heaven. The preaching of the kingdom on earth has furnished the wedding feast with guests. (Matt. 22:10)

The 'guests' will be all those who respond to the Gospel of the Kingdom. And that kingdom now comes upon the earth. (Matt. 25:31) Which means the guests will be made up of Jews and Gentiles. At this time there will be many who had rejected that Gospel but will try and now align themselves with the guests, due to what they have witnessed in the return of Christ the Bridegroom.

But, then, one of the most fearful verses in Scripture, (Matt. 22:11) "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:" A certain garment was required. The King, as I said earlier, is God. And He can see right through every man and woman. The garment required here I believe to be the correct response to the gospel of the kingdom, which involved faith and repentance. The result was terrible to the one who didn't come as he should have come. (Matt. 22:12-14) I believe comparison can be made here to (Matt. 25:32-34)

Of interest to me is (Matt. 22:10). Both bad and good were brought into the wedding feast. But we are not told that being bad or good was a factor in being a guest. What was a factor was having the correct wedding garment.

So, I believe 'guests' are separate from the Bride. They will be made of those believing Jews and Gentiles entering into the Millennium after the Lord's return at the end of the Tribulation.

And what has this to do with the Pharisees that the parable is for? The Pharisees did not come believing. They come by their works. Their own righteousness. They are not clothed with the righteousness of Christ. God sees through them and their end is fortold.

Stranger

We disagree about the rapture, but your posts are exegetically sound and certainly aligned with what I've been shown by the Lord.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Indeed, as parents may compel their children to attend worship services but they cannot make them believers. Similarly, society may compel people to attend services to avoid criticism. While it is less so than it once was, many people have clung to the title Christian, because it opens doors to them that would have been closed to agnostics or atheists or other non-Christians.

It is still God that gives the increase, but individuals must choose the right direction before He will in fact increase them.

I am currently reading through Isaiah in my morning readings (skipped right over song of songs) and in chapter 1 God refers to Israel as His children. If these verses refer to the church directly, then the church is in big trouble. God promises to bring the sword against the rebellious and disobedient of His children. He did before. Does God change?

 

[michaelvpardo]

sure seems weird, not that i am any clearer on this one. it is a weird parable

Some folks believe that the bride is the 144000 Jewish virgins and that the gentiles are the guests, but this is a little too much like JW doctrine for me to be comfortable with and puts a little too much importance in bloodlines. God's promises to the gentiles go back to Noah and are reitterated by the prophets. The one thing of which I am certain is that God will keep His covenant promises even as He keeps His word.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Q Aren't all the parable proceeded with the line " The kingdom of heaven is like.." ?
If so Jesus is painting pictures of the Kingdom for us to see.
Therefore is it not an invitation for us to choose now, to be where we would wish and hope to be In The Kingdom?
Who chooses to be a server at the wedding banquet rather than a guest?
Who chooses to be a guest at the wedding rather than The Bride?...who goes all the way into the inner chamber with her lord?
I personally believe that everything is an invitation into the bridal chamber, into union and fellowship with Him.
It is always about laying down our life and choosing His.
The 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' to me , will be when worldly Christians see what they could have had, yet do not, because they lived with one foot in the kingdom and one foot in the world. Foolishly thinking that they can have the best of both.
Which takes us back to "The kingdom of heaven is like a Sower who went forth to sow. " Not all the seed made it to 100 fold..."But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." Matt 13:8
...it shows 30 fold, 60 fold and then the 100 fold. Why shoot for 30 fold when we could be 100 fold.

The judgment of believers, called the beema(?) seat judgment is one of reward not punishment. The final judgment, called the white throne judgment, is the judgment of everyone else at the 2nd resurrection, the end of the millennial kingdom as such. God punishes disobedient believers as a discipline, but not eternally, and I don't believe in a "purgatory."

 

[Jun2u]

Some theologians speak of special calls and general calls, sort of like a personal e-mail and a network wide broadcast e-mail. The gospel isn't a special call to faith, but a commandment "to believe" given to all that hear it. However the gospel is viewed by some as a general call to all humanity (being a commandment) yet a special call to all that receive it (or more properly an effective call.) Calling someone is no guarantee that they will respond, but not responding to the king is not an option.

Don’t worry about some theologians speaking of special or general calls, and sort of like a personal email. Our task is to prove self. The Gospel is a special call and commandment to the world “to believe” but according to Romans 3, who will believe? NONE, ZERO, NADA!

The doctrine of Salvation is very complex. Some would say all it takes to become saved is “accept” or “believe” in the Lord Jesus. We are not called to accept but to believe, but man in his own volition will NOT (John 3:19-20) unless, God intervenes in his life. This concept of salvation can be seen in the beautiful illustration of salvation in the Raising of Lazarus.

After praying to the Father at the tomb, Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” Can Lazarus hear the command to come forth? No! Why not? Because he was dead and there was no life in him. In fact, Scripture drives home the point he was dead four days and stinketh.

But he did come forth, what had to have happened? Jesus had to go into the tomb and give Lazarus life! Exactly the same way He saves His “elect,” “chosen,” “church (invisible),” by giving them eternal life. “Many are called but few are chosen.” So sad for those who do not believe in OSAS. Sorry, that’s another thread. Couldn’t resist though.

As Lazarus was physically dead, physically deaf to the command to come forth, and physically blind: so are we spiritually dead in our sins, spiritually dull in hearing the true Gospel, and spiritually blind to the truths of the Bible! There are more but you get the gist.

So, don’t worry about some theologians which speak of special calls and general calls, but rather prove yourself.

To God Be The Glory

 

[amadeus]

Now, I'm a little prejudiced in my thinking because I was named after the archangel, but in the book of Daniel who was it that alone stood with the Lord against His enemies and who is it that takes his stand for Israel and the church at the time of the judgment?

Of course, I know of some who say that Michael is really Jesus. I am not there, but it does make one stop and think, does it not?

 

[amadeus]

I am currently reading through Isaiah in my morning readings (skipped right over song of songs) and in chapter 1 God refers to Israel as His children. If these verses refer to the church directly, then the church is in big trouble. God promises to bring the sword against the rebellious and disobedient of His children. He did before. Does God change?

God does not change. Circumstances and people are different and sometimes those make a difference in how God deals with a situation. We can always get help for ourselves to make it along God's pathway, but will we receive answers to every question that we have?