If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[Wrangler]

Occam's Razor applies here.

Agreed.

However, you are violating Occam’s Razor in being open to our origins tied to aliens in a different universe rather than the revealed Creator.

 

[Lapidem]

Does everything include everything or not? If everything is natural then Darth Vader, Santa Claus, God, Easter Bunny, and Rumble Stillskin all exist and are natural.

You're getting confused again in your eagerness to try and put me down. Everything is NATURE not natural. Very clearly many things have design, therefore there must be designers. My car has design, there must therefore be car designers. Plants have design, there must therefore be plant designers or at the least there must be designers who set process in motion that would cascade into mass random generation of forms. None of this remotely supports the absurd notion of a singular all-powerful all-loving Christian God. All the evidence around us every day proves that such an entity does not exist.

Do you think a parent of a 5yr old girl would be a loving parent if they stood by and watched a dirty old 40yr man sexually abusing their daughter? Assume the mother is a triple black belt in various martial arts, assume she has ruthless military training. She is massively more powerful than the sexual predator. It is a loving act to stand by and watch her own daughter be raped by a 40yr old man? If you think it is loving, then I can't help you. I would consider your mentality to be so utterly warped and indoctrinated to be beyond hope.
If you think it isn't remotely loving to stand idly by then equally you should think the same of your God who stands idly by whilst all these children are sexually abused, tortured or killed by awful diseases. But of course in the indoctrinated Christian mindset this is just all part of some incredible grand master plan that God has ! Self-delusion. You might as well worship Hitler and make excuses for all the people sent to gas chambers. Wake from your trance.

Many atheists are like you, supposing you can invoke definitions around your Creator.

I'm not an atheist.

I believe in a universal energy source which pervades everything. I choose not to refer to it as God because the term has been so badly abused by religion and can't be separated from it. I accept that there may be more advanced life forms than humans who are capable of designing things. They are not Gods or God. They are part of the universe just as I am. Eventually humans will be able to design other life forms, it's just a matter of time. When they do, those life forms will likely ask "why did you design me like this?" "for what purpose" and mankind will say "it just seemed like a good idea at the time" or "we wanted to design and create slaves to do our work for us".

 

[Wrangler]

Billions testified to the model of the universe revolving around the Earth.

Really? That’s a false comparison as you are pretending a scientific hypothesis was actually held by the masses.

 

[Lapidem]

Well, clearly you are hostile to Christianity and extrapolating from the foundation of logical inquiry of the available evidence. My question is binary. Does a book prove the existence of a book writer?

Yes or No.

I've already conceded multiple times that it does suggest there is a writer.

I've also stated clearly numerous times that this is no rational sense supports the ridiculous Christian concept of an all-powerful all-loving God. It simply means there are designers out there. Humans are designers. There are very likely other designers, more advanced than us. This doesn't mean we should revere and worship them as some mythical God.

 

[Wrangler]

Everyone has experiences. What matters is what those experiences actually are.

Indeed. See Occam's Razor.

 

[Lapidem]

Really? That’s a false comparison as you are pretending a scientific hypothesis was actually held by the masses.

No it's not false at all. Prior to the 1820s the masses and indeed the Churches believed rigidly that the Earth was immovable and everything rotated around it. They thought it was the centre of the universe. Denying this damages your credibility greatly.

 

[bbyrd009]

You clearly hope to define your way. The question of the objective evidence of a writer existing in the presence of happening on a book in the woods.

the arg strikes me as specious bc you are assuming the author, seems to me anyway

 

[Lapidem]

Agreed.

However, you are violating Occam’s Razor in being open to our origins tied to aliens in a different universe rather than the revealed Creator.

I never mentioned aliens or alternative universes.

I simply suggested there are other life forms more advanced than humans in THIS universe. It is far more likely to be the case than the existence of an all-powerful all-loving singular God.

 

[bbyrd009]

No it's not false at all. Prior to the 1820s the masses and indeed the Churches believed rigidly that the Earth was immovable and everything rotated around it. They thought it was the centre of the universe. Denying this damages your credibility greatly.

word

 

[Lapidem]

the arg strikes me as specious bc you are assuming the author, seems to me anyway

Yep. It's self-delusion. Poster wants to confirm his misguided beliefs and so looks for ways to support them without honest rational appraisal. Does the existence of a book mean that an all-powerful all-loving God was the author? No it could be anyone that authored the book. Does the existence of genetic DNA coding mean that an all-powerful all-loving God was the designer? No, it could have been any advanced life form that designed it. Given the design is hugely flawed, fickle and vulnerable Occam's Razor would suggest it was more advanced life forms that created it not the Christian God concept. Such discussions are horribly difficult for indoctrinated people to partake in because you need huge amounts of humility to contemplate that you might be wrong, you might have jumped to the wrong conclusions or been had, duped, mislead by the Churches and their man-made doctrines. Most don't have that kind of humility and objectiveness.

 

[Wrangler]

I simply suggested there are other life forms more advanced than humans in THIS universe. I

PROVE IT!!!

 

[bbyrd009]

Yep. It's self-delusion. Poster wants to confirm his misguided beliefs and so looks for ways to support them without honest rational appraisal.

i guess thats why it is said that they not only refuse to enter, but they bar the door to entry for others
im pretty much convinced that the cult of sol belief in the possibility of immortality after death is a factor,
"Death, More Abundantly"
which the Bible strenuously and repeatedly refutes, btw

Does the existence of a book mean that an all-powerful all-loving God was the author? No it could be anyone that authored the book

ah well, fwiw in an oft-misquoted verse, Paul suggested that all writings were profitable for wisdom, etc (paraphrased),
and the Bible is pretty unabashedly a distillation of earlier wisdom; half of the decalogue is from Hammurabi, the king of Babylon, etc,
and Paul quoted a lot of Epicurean, Stoic, and other wisdom traditions. Moses came from the Persians, i guess

Does the existence of genetic DNA coding mean that an all-powerful all-loving God was the designer? No, it could have been any advanced life form that designed it. Given the design is hugely flawed, fickle and vulnerable Occam's Razor would suggest it was more advanced life forms that created it not the Christian God concept.

1. well, i guess Yah might be all-hating, too, but it is hard to deny that The fool has said in his heart "there is no God," simply bc that makes him just another kind of believer, imo. More advanced life forms, implying extraterrestrial, is a popular subject right now, but i havent met one yet!
2. this is why i object to believers trying to make Yah "exist," when the Hebrews (who were deemed "Atheists" by the Romans) worshipped an Unknown God, as Jonah brings out more. At the same time i do understand the desire to make one's god more "real," but it is doomed to failure imo

 

[bbyrd009]

PROVE IT!!!

lol
but dont imagine that you are not under the law when you speak in a courtroom fashion, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

if there's anyone left in here that i havent upset, pls let me know

 

[Mjh29]

What makes a fundamentalist think that their interpretation of the Bible is the one and true interpretation? Are they not acting as if they are God themselves when they assume that their interpretation must be infallible? I’ve never once heard a fundamentalist say that they could be reading the Bible wrong, they’re the only ones who hold the correct interpretation and everyone else is taking it out of context-except for them.

And also, how does it make any sense for a believer to say they don’t know what the future holds, but then turn around and say that you will come before God, in the future of course, after you die? I thought they don’t know what the future holds.

Also, how can a believer know anything at all when they say, “Only God knows”? If only God knows, then we cannot know anything at all, not even that God knows. It’s self-defeating.

Hello there! Firstly, I would like to thank you for coming and and asking questions!

To be honest, the question you asked is a legitimate one - how CAN we be certain?! How do we know that our interpretation is the correct interpretation? The simple answer …. We can’t. And it is in fact impossible that we ALWAYS are correct in our interpretations of the Scriptures. And I will say that many Christians, most of the time unknowingly, DO take the Scriptures out of context to fit their own personal beliefs, however wrong that is to do. Bible study, and knowing the truth takes time and effort - it is a lifelong mission, and you are bound to have your opinions changed as you walk the path and learn more and more of the truth.

Saying “I do not know what the future holds”, to myself at least, is much more like reading a book. Let’s say I skip to the ending pages, and have the ending revealed to me before I read the rest of the novel. Now I know how the story will end, even if I do not necessarily know the contents within that lead me to that point. That is a lot like what Christians believe - we may not know how the story plays out, but God through His Word has revealed to us how the story ends.

Only God knows is indeed the truth - God is ALSO the only one who can reveal. God is the only one who knows ALL, and the only one who allows us to know anything at all - if we are blessed with a revelation from Him, it is to be counted as a blessing, something called Common Grace - meaning even unbelievers are given this gift when it comes to common knowledge learned! But list like with common knowledge, it takes something called “special grace” from Him to learn and understand his truths, the truths of the Scriptures.

Thanks again for asking these tough questions! If I can be of any more help, please let me know!

 

[Gaffer]

Well, that's my point about most people. They can't do that.

I remember telling a friend in high school that I was so tired I "passed out." He refused to take the term figuratively, no matter how many times I told him it was a figure of speech.

Yeah, I've been waiting some 50 years for your religion to produce a 'Green and Blue Letter Bible' - with the verses that are literal and not highlighted like the 'red letter' bibles. I fear it will never happen, since Christians among themselves are all over the place in their opinions on what is literal is what is allegorical. :

 

[bbyrd009]

What makes a fundamentalist think that their interpretation of the Bible is the one and true interpretation? Are they not acting as if they are God themselves when they assume that their interpretation must be infallible? I’ve never once heard a fundamentalist say that they could be reading the Bible wrong, they’re the only ones who hold the correct interpretation and everyone else is taking it out of context-except for them.

And also, how does it make any sense for a believer to say they don’t know what the future holds, but then turn around and say that you will come before God, in the future of course, after you die? I thought they don’t know what the future holds.

Also, how can a believer know anything at all when they say, “Only God knows”? If only God knows, then we cannot know anything at all, not even that God knows. It’s self-defeating.

narf

 

[bbyrd009]

Hello there! Firstly, I would like to thank you for coming and and asking questions!

To be honest, the question you asked is a legitimate one - how CAN we be certain?! How do we know that our interpretation is the correct interpretation? The simple answer …. We can’t. And it is in fact impossible that we ALWAYS are correct in our interpretations of the Scriptures. And I will say that many Christians, most of the time unknowingly, DO take the Scriptures out of context to fit their own personal beliefs, however wrong that is to do. Bible study, and knowing the truth takes time and effort - it is a lifelong mission, and you are bound to have your opinions changed as you walk the path and learn more and more of the truth.

Saying “I do not know what the future holds”, to myself at least, is much more like reading a book. Let’s say I skip to the ending pages, and have the ending revealed to me before I read the rest of the novel. Now I know how the story will end, even if I do not necessarily know the contents within that lead me to that point. That is a lot like what Christians believe - we may not know how the story plays out, but God through His Word has revealed to us how the story ends.

Only God knows is indeed the truth - God is ALSO the only one who can reveal. God is the only one who knows ALL, and the only one who allows us to know anything at all - if we are blessed with a revelation from Him, it is to be counted as a blessing, something called Common Grace - meaning even unbelievers are given this gift when it comes to common knowledge learned! But list like with common knowledge, it takes something called “special grace” from Him to learn and understand his truths, the truths of the Scriptures.

Thanks again for asking these tough questions! If I can be of any more help, please let me know!

different kind of narf

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, I've been waiting some 50 years for your religion to produce a 'Green and Blue Letter Bible' - with the verses that are literal and not highlighted like the 'red letter' bibles. I fear it will never happen, since Christians among themselves are all over the place in their opinions on what is literal is what is allegorical. :

fwiw the Bible itself provides a legend for that

 

[bbyrd009]

Agreed.

However, you are violating Occam’s Razor in being open to our origins tied to aliens in a different universe rather than the revealed Creator.

or the Unknown One :)

Many atheists are like you, supposing you can invoke definitions around your Creator.

zing