If atheists get accused of taking verses out of context, how do we know fundamentalists making those accusations aren’t doing the same as well?

[Wrangler]

If there is free will then the victim can prevent herself being raped correct?

Not an answer to my question.

There is such a thing as violating one's Free Will. See property crimes.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yet, you don’t say what is wrong with a frequent return to fundamental principles. I call BS.

i didnt mean that as a put down ok, im sure there are plenty that arent serving me either lol, but the Bible puts it as re-laying the foundation over and over i think it is

so basically if you find yourself rehashing the same stuff you were hashing five years ago or whatever—basically what Christians do—then you might wanna take a look at that

 

[bbyrd009]

No. But you don’t seem like much of a believer in God. What would you have me do?

man, if you are fulfilled in your beliefs, and faith as a noun works for you, then who am i to be telling you what to do? But at a certain point, five years, forty years, you might see that you went out into the wilderness to see something, and you ended up paying for a story that seemed right to you, so you sat down under a tree, the one we call “Christianity,” and your mind became set, and you no longer sought, bc in your mind you now have all the facts.

and as long as that works for you, then fine, but at a certain point you find yourself going over and over the Church 101, and you maybe read something about Nehushtan or Esau, or no one may die for another’s sins, or even id rather never eat meat again, and you start asking questions again, rather than insisting upon what you were taught, that sounded so good at the time, that really tbh just fed your ego, and made you into a Special Person.

if you want to do something, go out in the way of the Seventy imo, the “two” of you, being as how you are divided

 

[Wrangler]

so basically if you find yourself rehashing the same stuff you were hashing five years ago

Hmmm. I see your point. There is a difference between ‘re-hashing’ a principle from applying the principle anew, don’t you think?

For instance, as an experienced driver, I stop at a stop sign. As a new driver I may have had to ‘re-hash’ or learn how much distance I need to safely stop at a given speed. Although I no longer re-hash that, I still apply the principle every time I stop at a stop sign.

 

[bbyrd009]

My pastor said recently nothing is deeper, meatier than loving God and loving others.

well, in the Bible there is meat in a good way, and then meat in a not so good way, so im not meaning to contradict him ok, but i guess ones definition of “love” will even change

 

[bbyrd009]

Duped Christians believe there is an all-powerful and all-loving God. There patently isn't for the reason given above. No loving entity would stand idly by if they had the power to stop an innocent child being abused

i would say that you have seized upon that bc it seems right to you, but parents let their children screw up sometimes so that they might learn what doing the wrong thing manifests. And you can decide that there is no God, or that you are mad at Him for that if you like, but that does not necessarily make that true, right? It only means that you have decided upon some fact, “there patently isnt,” that you cannot prove even to yourself. It makes you into God iow, in your own mind

 

[bbyrd009]

All of which brings us to the obvious conclusion which is that we have very likely totally misunderstood who and what god is and the Church has wilfully mislead billions of humans into their concept of an all-powerful, all-loving entity so they can peddle their control system

yes, and? i mean anyone can read about that exact thing in the Bible, No son of man may die for another’s sins, Esau needed red stew or he would die, They were burning incense to Nehushtan, etc, on and on, its all in there, plus Jesus praising the religious of His day, who can Quote that?
i mean, do your best here, and best of luck to you, but imo your gnostic opinions (stated as truths) will fare no better than theirs

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, and that's what I'm iterating. The notion of an all-powerful all-loving god is patently absurd. If there's a god then it is either powerless to act or indifferent to human suffering. Doesn't matter which, which ever it is its not a god worth worshipping.

so i say again that the notion of an all loving and all powerful parent is also absurd, to a fourteen year old, and Yah makes plain that He does not desire that kind of worship anyway.

 

[Wrangler]

you no longer sought, bc in your mind you now have all the facts.

I never said I have all the facts. In fact, this impossibility makes all the need to have faith.

you maybe read something about Nehushtan or Esau, or no one may die for another’s sins, or even id rather never eat meat again, and you start asking questions again,

You've mentioned this point about Esau. Please start a new thread to flush out the idea fully. Sounds fascinating.

 

[bbyrd009]

As stated numerous times now we MUST ABSOLUTELY expect and demand that any potential ruler displays the kind of behaviours that he/she wants from their subjects and the kind of traits that we humans would deem worthy of worship. Herein lies a key problem with Christianity for the god of this psychological system of control is recounted in the Bible to be a mass murderer of men, women, children and babies and even as yet unborn babies. He has according to the Bible killed countless people, numerous innocents, numerous animals, has engaged in ethnic cleansing and of course genocide. Yet this would-be ruler requires of his subjects that they should not kill.

This of course does not wash. We may as well worship Hitler by those standards.

to this i would say that the genre of writing is not being understood very well, as there were no actual genocides, only Conquest Genre (which was how they wrote then) is being employed in the dispensation of the giving of the law to illustrate various points, and you are choosing to omit that God pointed out specifically that He does not want anyone sacrificing their children to Him, which was i guess very common back then.

Now granted, we still sacrifice children in many senses, sexual abuse etc, but even a generation ago these things just werent discussed much, whereas today they are actionable offenses, and powerful men are now living in dread of the day Maxwell’s List is made public, right

so you might find yourself seeing how empty the glass is, when it is after all also half full, and we have made amazing strides in just the last hundred years even

 

[Wrangler]

All of which brings us to the obvious conclusion which is that we have very likely totally misunderstood who and what god is and the Church has wilfully mislead billions of humans into their concept of an all-powerful, all-loving entity so they can peddle their control system.

You have made an Appeal to Probability with no foundation. What you write is not true, this I know. I know this because God called me. I am a witness.

 

[bbyrd009]

Add to this that he turns a blind eye to the worldwide crime of the sexual abuse of little children, and to the sex slave trade and to the starvation of millions and the terminal affliction of children to diseases like Leukaemia and so on and all in all he doesn't appear to be either all-powerful or all-loving.

There is no justification for worshipping such an entity imho. Those that do are compartmentalising all these issues and ignoring them because of their religious indoctrination.

so then who cares what the deceived are doing, Yah does not desire that kind of worship anyway, and you are free to fight any worldwide crimes yourself if you like, although i would recommend leaving the world myself, but you have no evidence that God is turning a “blind eye” to anything wadr; you have just decided that You Have a Better Idea, yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

This is a ludicrous statement. It's basically an "I'm all right Jack" approach and nothing else matters

so you say, yes
but i never said “nothing else matters,” see

The reality is that society is a collective and we are all affected by crimes and atrocities even if they don't directly happen to us

man, then bam imo focus on that if you like, go be a cop even, but understand that you are choosing to focus on that, when you are advised to “leave the world,” and while “children” are of course a popular emotional appeal, that i even empathize with, i suggest again that things are way better than they were in the past, and you could as easily dwell on that if you wanted to

It's also a very unchristian attitude

ty :)
but srsly, we make codependents in the developed (“Christian”) world, and i come from a very codependent family, so dont think i dont understand where you are coming from. “Doom, despair, and agony on me” is an ever popular refrain, and you are of course free to kvetch as long and as loud as you like, may it serve you well. Me, ima keep in mind that yes, things are not perfect, and any that are put in front of me that i might actually be able to affect i wont be blind to if at all possible, but this nebulous newsy-type “abuse” that i am basically powerless to change anyway amounts to peering in, meaning that there may even be a sense in which you just enjoy focusing on garbage, crap, and the worst of human nature?

You surely are not denying the widespread sexual abuse of children or the sex slave trade and the like

well like the man said, what would you have me do? tbh i see that being largely wiped out as we speak, likely in this generation at least. I am an idealist too (not so great a thing i guess), but really what do you advise there

 

[bbyrd009]

What good does suing someone achieve? The child that has been sexually abused will be scarred for life. It will affect their whole life and approach to people and relationships going forward. There's nothing remotely perfect about where we are. We are born into a slave system that is already mastered and controlled by wicked humans. We are shackled the moment we emerge from the womb

so then leave the world? i mean really, you might ask yourself how much of those Terrible Things you have directly experienced anyway, and how many of them you only know anything about bc you watch the fricking news lol. I am not meaning to minimize them, but things like that do tend to get blown up, and become way bigger than they actually might be, to someone emotionally attuned to that. We’re all scarred for life, ok; we all have something to overcome.

The love of my life was molested by her father, head deacon of a baptist church, and her brother, so dont think i am not empathetic here, but as you say what good does suing do? Should i expose him/them? Trust me, he is paying in spades right now anyway. These ppl, that perpetrate these evils, they do not get away scott free like you might imagine, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm inventing nothing and to deny that the crimes and atrocities I have raised exist is ridiculous. I didn't expect this from you TBH

im not denying them, but i am saying that they are beyond your purview, and can only bring sorrow to focus on them. Notice how they are currently very generalized, “the crimes and atrocities.” Not saying that they arent real or dont exist, but really what is your point? Basically “everything should be perfect at all times, if there were indeed an All Powerful God,” right? So iow not recognizing the purpose that evil serves, which dont get me wrong i understand it seems harsh, and you are trying to Stamp Out Evil and all (having eaten from the tree), which more power to you imo, but suffering does serve a purpose whether you choose to see that or not, and really you are just injecting your perspective on generalized situations where you are likely not in possession of all the facts anyway; the young girl from an undeveloped country gets trafficked, but ends up in a position to sway developed world opinions on that, etc.

so i mean no offense, ok? But what you are really doing is demonstrating your pessimism, when the world is just going to keep passing away, and things are going to keep getting better than they were, only i could play a jig for you but you will not dance, if you get the reference.

 

[bbyrd009]

Again this idea of suing someone is puerile

i completely agree, but the point is that that is now even a viable option, whereas even twenty years ago it would have been a joke. Jerry Saville is now discredited, and who knows how many potential sexual abuses are now thwarted, simply by his exposure

 

[bbyrd009]

It's neither looking for the good or bad. It's simply highlighting that there is no all-loving all-powerful god

well, to your mind maybe, but again that does not make it true.
the fact that you do not understand a thing does not make that thing impossible, or even irrelevant
just means that you dont understand it right

 

[Wrangler]

As stated numerous times now we MUST ABSOLUTELY expect and demand that any potential ruler displays the kind of behaviours that he/she wants from their subjects

Friend, there you go again. YHWH’s terms are simple. Total surrender and submission. His way is the only way.

Your posts wreak of pride, presuming to be in a position to judge your maker. He will judge you and his judgment is the one that counts.

My church often talks about how people tend to be OK with Jesus as their savior. The part they struggle with his abdicating lordship over your life. Jesus is both lord and savior. You can’t split this baby. It’s both or none.

 

[bbyrd009]

we must start to search in new directions to find the truth and stop living in silly denial

well fwiw i will tell you that the Bible is very plain…or at least it isnt very hard to decipher “religion, bad,” and that the Established Church is firmly “in the world” and you should leave it, so while you might discount or dismiss the Bible, i would say that you are mostly denying yourself a valuable resource, just like most Christian believers are doing.

Doesnt mean that you cant go on to faithfully serve anyway, and if arguing with other gnostics is working for you right now then go for it imo, but i cant think of a more useless exercise than to find some other gnostics who believe exactly the opposite of what i do to debate with lol i mean what is the point? Are you masochistic?

 

[Wrangler]

The notion of an all-powerful all-loving god is patently absurd. If there's a god then it is either powerless to act or indifferent to human suffering.

Again that is the Atheist axiom, which is false. YHWH abandoned this world to Satan. Satan is the god of this world. The suffering is not caused by YHWH but allowed because it is a fallen world.

You have to abdicate dictating terms to the almighty. Such profound ego! He has a plan to save the world. It's just not saving the world the way you'd prefer. Jesus never said 'follow me and you won't suffer or have troubles.' In fact, he said we would have troubles because we follow him. He also told us to take heart because he has overtaken the world.