The short answer is it's a figure of speech.
If our interpretation of scripture sidesteps common sense, did we get it right?
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
An extended metaphor, built on wordplay. The words for speech and water are similar in Greek. Speaking is visualized as a flow of ideas or words emanating from the speaker, like water would flow from a spring.
This is also why writings can be "fulfilled" - words that flow out can "fill up" a receptacle - usually another person.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It wasn't a charade. Jesus needed no remission of sins. This act validated John's work and John in turn presented the Messiah, Lord and Savior.
This marked the beginning of Jesus' ministry. He was anointed and became the Messiah, the heavens opened, the Holy Spirit descended on Him like a dove to empower Him and His Father spoke, identifying Jesus as His Son.
If it was "a baptism for the remission of sins" and Jesus had no need of it.... it was a charade by definition.
It would have been pretense, an absurd act empty of meaning.
I liked both of these posts.
So, it makes sense that there was some meaning to it.
Jesus explained it to John. Though it might not be clear what that meant.
Matthew 3:13-15 NIV
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”
Then John consented.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
John's water baptism prepared people for Christ's arrival, a symbolic act that represented the forgiveness of sins that would later come from Jesus. None of their sins were forgiven at that moment. No one was regenerated, born again. Water baptism does not save anyone. JESUS SAVES. HE CLEANSES SIN. So water baptism is an outward act _ a public announcement, an act of obedience and submission that you are ready and willing to ask and receive forgiveness of sins and have a relationship with the Savior, the Holy Spirit and the Father. What you are saying is my heart is ready, my door is open. JESUS BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and that did not happen till 3 1/2 years later.
Jesus' baptism was ceremonial. He was beginning His mission and the Holy Spirit and the Father confirmed this and Who He was. He said, Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.
His mission began in submittion to His Father. He wanted us to follow Him, do everything He did.
What if He just appeared that day and didn't get baptized and said, "I don't have any sins, I was born without sin, I am God in the flesh". Though it would be true it would not be humble and they could not grasp that, nor readily accept it. People have a problem today grapsing that concept. That would be a little too much for them to handle. God became man. But He had to be humble and gentle, a servant who prepared Himslef for a mission that would result in suffering and death. So it was proper and righteous for Him to be baptized as a man, to first be received as a man. They could not yet grasp the concept that He was God.
Though he was in the form of God, he did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant” Philippians 2:6–7
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Gods Law is clear and scripture shows us, but yet many Christians cant see the truth.
Genesis 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exodus 16:23
And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
Exodus 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
What does the New Covenant say about the old covenant of law?
Not sure if that is clear to you. But you could surprise me.
Wouldn't common sense send you to the New Testament to see if the Old Testament applies to us today?
Those are the two MAJOR divisions of the Bible. But here you are declaring that...
"... many Christians cant see the truth." Seriously? Use a little common sense.
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The answer is right there. As Jesus explained, he needed to be baptized because it was the right thing to do. To say it wasn't needed, but it was necessary is completely contradictory. To say that it was necessary, because it was righteous is what makes sense and it's what Jesus said.
Case closed.
If that were true, then saying so would be honest and right. You think it was more important to appear humble than for him to be honest?
I think he was being completely honest. I think he was saying it was the right thing to do because it was necessary. So your argument is with him and with scripture. I'll let you sort it out for yourself.
Every man needs to repent. Was Jesus a man? This makes him authentically so.
You make him out to be some kind of charlatan.
He either needed the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins because it was right for him or it was a farce. All an act and strictly for show.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
"If that were true?" You see what I did, I got you to admit your errors. You don't believe He was born without sin and did not sin, nor do you believe in the deity of Christ.
Jesus didn't tell us how He created the universe either because we couldn't grasp that concept, Einstein couldn't. See, I set you up again, to admit more flaws in your thinking.
It appears that you have things to sort out. His baptism was done "to fulfill all righteousness" You need to figure out what that means.
Do you have kids? If so, when they were very young, you taught them what was right and wrong, and gave them certain rules to abide by to prepare them for life. You also taught them to do and learn certain simple things first before they can move onto the next step, level of understanding and ability.
I think God works with us in a similar ways, gives us first basic things and concepts (milk) we can handle in order to understand later, more complex and deeper spiritual things ( meat that we are capable of chewing and digesting).
But some kids just never grow up. They can't seem to handle the difficult things that most mature adults can.
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I'm guessing there is a third option we are overlooking.
I don't think these two make much sense.
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John was a prophet born with the spirit right from birth which the Scripture says never happened before. Jesus was a man born under the Old Testament system without spirit. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ. Again, it was a message to Israel from a prophet saying here he is.
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