If the law was abolished at the cross...

[mjrhealth]

When did Jesus ever teach anyone not to keep the law?

Because Bard, He was under the old covenant, He came to fulffill the law, He taught the Jews what the requirements was for teh day, Just as John did. He was showing them teh better way.

Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus did what He needed to do to, He who was made perfect was coviceted by the very law you choose to keep, by carrying our sins, for of Himself under the law He had no guilt. It was our sin tha tHe bore that slew Him.

Why? so you Bard, would not have to carry that burden that you try so hard to do. Do you think it please Him that He gives you so great a gift that you will not accept freely but continually try to pay for by your own works..

You where NEVER under the old covenant so why are you insisting in putting yourself under it.??

You like all those whi insist on teh law, are always troubled by sin. now how can that be so if you have put on Christ.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This was for the Jews not us, the law was never ours.

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

But becuase of this, becuaase of His roghteousness we can stand in teh presence of God, which you would think any cChristian would love to do, unless they are afraid because of Sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

That is why it speaks of the old and new wine, and how those who have never tasted the new (spirit, grace), prefer the old (law, works).

I hope you get it , because than as it says, Whom he sets free is fee indeed.

You cant be free if sin troubles you so

 

[Barrd]

Because Bard, He was under the old covenant, He came to fulffill the law, He taught the Jews what the requirements was for teh day, Just as John did. He was showing them teh better way.

Heb_8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus did what He needed to do to, He who was made perfect was coviceted by the very law you choose to keep, by carrying our sins, for of Himself under the law He had no guilt. It was our sin tha tHe bore that slew Him.

Why? so you Bard, would not have to carry that burden that you try so hard to do. Do you think it please Him that He gives you so great a gift that you will not accept freely but continually try to pay for by your own works..

You where NEVER under the old covenant so why are you insisting in putting yourself under it.??

You like all those whi insist on teh law, are always troubled by sin. now how can that be so if you have put on Christ.

Rom_7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This was for the Jews not us, the law was never ours.

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

But becuase of this, becuaase of His roghteousness we can stand in teh presence of God, which you would think any cChristian would love to do, unless they are afraid because of Sin.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

That is why it speaks of the old and new wine, and how those who have never tasted the new (spirit, grace), prefer the old (law, works).

I hope you get it , because than as it says, Whom he sets free is fee indeed.

You cant be free if sin troubles you so

Yeah, I get it.
But I don't think you did.
You did not reply at all to the first part of my answer, Mj.
Was that an oversight on your part, or did you do it on purpose?

I asked you why God ever wrote those laws in the first place, and why you think it is natural for those of us who are walking in the love of Jesus Christ to keep those laws.

You obviously know that those who do such things...those who break these laws...will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
And you obviously know that there are people who do such things, and who do them without remorse or repentance of heart. You do live on the planet earth, in the 21st century, same as I do, right? Just grab a newspaper and read the headlines.

So, again, why do you think that it is natural for Christ's followers to keep these laws? Those who walk in His love will not do these things, just as you said. Why is that?
Obviously, the answer is, because those laws are a part of us...written on our hearts, just as God promised.

The New Covenant is not a Lawless Covenant. God never promised that it would be. Common sense ought to tell us that those good old Ten Words are written into it, just as they were in the first Covenant...only this time they are not on tablets of stone. And this time, God has promised to dwell with us, within our very hearts, and that He will have mercy on us, to forgive our transgressions.

What an Awesome God He is!!

 

[StanJ]

Just once, I'd like someone to explain to me just how the Ten Commandments are "obsolete".
Seriously, take a long, hard look at that list and explain to me how Christianity could even exist without them.

I think it's been explained to you quite a few times so I don't know why one more time would make any difference? You see what the Bible says about the old Covenant being obsolete. What was the old Covenant? What was it based on? You keep asking the same question but you refuse to answer the questions that are being posed to you. Christianity exist because Jesus did exactly what he was supposed to do and accepting him as our savior and allowing the Holy Spirit to dwell in our lives is exactly what God's plan was under the New Covenant. Do you think that the Holy Spirit will dwell in somebody and not make them aware of what God's will is for their life? The Old Covenant was written laws and statutes that were meant to bring about righteousness that it never could. That is clearly explained by Paul in his Epistles and in Hebrews. As you don't seem to be able to understand that and always refer to the Old Testament laws written under the old Covenant system then in my opinion you don't really want to know you just don't want to accept what is clearly indicated in the New Testament. Nobody can make you see or make you want to understand. As you also don't seem to want to have anything to do with the Holy Spirit and participate of his in filling and his power that he instills in us, then there's obviously nothing that I or anyone can say that will make you understand because you just don't want to.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yeah, I get it.
But I don't think you did.
You did not reply at all to the first part of my answer, Mj.
Was that an oversight on your part, or did you do it on purpose?

Over sight,

Oh how God puts up with man I have no Idea...

I will make it as simple as possible.

God needed a way to pardon man of His sins (crimes) no law no crime ,cant pardon.
Jesus need to die for us so we could be pardoned, now for Him to be convicted of a crime He needed a crime to be convitecd of, for a crime to be comitted there must be a law to break.

Hence teh law came into place for a short time as was put.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

See that is what the law does, it Kills people, there is no grace for those under the law. You choose the law you die, You choose Christ you live, Christ did not die for you to keep teh law that Killed Him. You are like the scientist who see all the evidence is stacked against him, but would rather deny it all and hold onto His belief even unto death.

Again should I say, teh only reason why the Law could kill Christ was because He took upon himself all our sins, yes Barrd, yours too, he did this for you so yo uwould be set free from Condemnation. but you choose the law and deny yourself Grace by the very one who died for you.

Again do you not walk In love, love has being in existence since the begining of Creation, it is and never will be done away with. When we are in Christ all teh laws are fulfilled in Him by Love. If we choose not Him than condemnation is all we have, condmenation to death.

Why do you think the pharisses always wanted to Kill Jesus, He broke our law He must die, why do you think they wanted to stone the women, she broke the law she must die, no mercy no grace no love, and that is how the law is to those who keep it.

Your choice, your doing not His.

 

[FHII]

I was chopping at the bit wanting to answer Barrd's post, but i waited to see what others said. I agree 100%! Romans 5:20 says the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded.....

 

[Barrd]

I was chopping at the bit wanting to answer Barrd's post, but i waited to see what others said. I agree 100%! Romans 5:20 says the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded.....

Why, FHII, what a flirt you are...

But if you are going to quote from Paul, make sure you read everything he has to say on the subject.
For instance:


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I hear the lawless camp prating about "works salvation"...and I actually laugh out loud. Don't you guys ever actually read your Bibles? Or do you let your pastor do your thinking for you?


Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Wait, what? Jesus died for us....what was that Paul was saying to Titus?
Jesus gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But I thought we were just supposed to sit around, having faith, the way Abraham did...he just sat around his tent, going "I have faith, I have faith. Dear Lord, I have faith."
It isn't as if ol' Abe actually acted on his faith, is it.
Oh. Wait a minute....

 

[Barrd]

Now, me, I like to hang in the red writing. It just seems to me that, after all He went through for me, Jesus just might have something to say that is worth listening to.
But if you prefer Paul, then it is important to actually read all that he has to say on the subject.
For instance, did you know that Paul actually kept the law himself? Yep:


Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

And Paul had a rather high opinion of God's law, unlike so many of his followers:


Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Honestly, kids...you really do need to read this stuff for yourself.

 

[StanJ]

Now, me, I like to hang in the red writing. It just seems to me that, after all He went through for me, Jesus just might have something to say that is worth listening to.
But if you prefer Paul, then it is important to actually read all that he has to say on the subject.
For instance, did you know that Paul actually kept the law himself? Yep:
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
And Paul had a rather high opinion of God's law, unlike so many of his followers:
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Honestly, kids...you really do need to read this stuff for yourself.

Pulled out a context Barrd, these say nothing about the law not being made obsolete. You keep ignoring this fact. The following however makes it very clear

For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Barrd]

I think it's been explained to you quite a few times so I don't know why one more time would make any difference? You see what the Bible says about the old Covenant being obsolete. What was the old Covenant? What was it based on? You keep asking the same question but you refuse to answer the questions that are being posed to you. Christianity exist because Jesus did exactly what he was supposed to do and accepting him as our savior and allowing the Holy Spirit to dwell in our lives is exactly what God's plan was under the New Covenant. Do you think that the Holy Spirit will dwell in somebody and not make them aware of what God's will is for their life? The Old Covenant was written laws and statutes that were meant to bring about righteousness that it never could. That is clearly explained by Paul in his Epistles and in Hebrews. As you don't seem to be able to understand that and always refer to the Old Testament laws written under the old Covenant system then in my opinion you don't really want to know you just don't want to accept what is clearly indicated in the New Testament. Nobody can make you see or make you want to understand. As you also don't seem to want to have anything to do with the Holy Spirit and participate of his in filling and his power that he instills in us, then there's obviously nothing that I or anyone can say that will make you understand because you just don't want to.

Isn't every Christian baptized with the Holy Spirit, and with fire? I am a Christian, I have received His Spirit the same as any other Christian.
I am very much aware that the Holy Spirit dwells within each and every one that belongs to Christ, as Paul says:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I am aware that the Old Covenant is "done away" and has been replaced by a New and Better Covenant.

It's this idea that this New Covenant, with it's mercy and it's grace represents a license to sin that sort of frosts my cupcakes, Stan.
It is total disrespect for Jesus Christ and for His precious blood to claim that we may throw the rule book away.

One more time:


Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Zealous of good works...is this "works-based salvation"??

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Yeah, I know....it isn't Paul. But it is Scripture. And we know that "all scripture is given..."

So, then...what is it? It is our faith that saves us, and not our works...but:

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So, whose servant are you?


Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I know Whom I have trusted....do you?

 

[FHII]

Barrd. The only flirting I'm guilty of is that for some reason I like your spirit. You're knowledge of the Word is pretty ugly.

So is your attitude towards me. Did you not look to shame me for not knowing the beatudes? Hey... I can recite the whole sermon IN the mount (almost). Why can't you? Or can you.

Get off your damn high horse when you yourself are on a jackass!

Your problem is that you don't read with context. You isolate ONE quote from Paul and ignore the 25 verses around it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Isn't every Christian baptized with the Holy Spirit, and with fire?

No, there are many who say so but dont do so.. If one has the Holy Spirit than one has a teacher of teh truth. you know the flesh and spirit are at war with one another. So when you hear the truth the old carnal mind gets terribly upset, its what made the pharisses mad at Jesus

Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Problem is you are not chasing after the better hope, but trying to hold onto something that was never given to you.

If God made us all perfect now, we would become proud and arrogant and that He will not have.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[mjrhealth]

It's this idea that this New Covenant, with it's mercy and it's grace represents a license to sin that sort of frosts my cupcakes

Oh how the devil loves this one, cant believe grace is enough, go on keep the law it will stop you sinning.... NOT.

Is not Grace sufficient for you Barrd, was His death not enough??

 

[Barrd]

Barrd. The only flirting I'm guilty of is that for some reason I like your spirit. You're knowledge of the Word is pretty ugly.

So is your attitude towards me. Did you not look to shame me for not knowing the beatudes? Hey... I can recite the whole sermon IN the mount (almost). Why can't you? Or can you.

Get off your damn high horse when you yourself are on a jackass!

Your problem is that you don't read with context. You isolate ONE quote from Paul and ignore the 25 verses around it.

And here I thought we were getting along so well.

My attitude towards you? FHII, I believe that what I actually said was that one of my pet peeves is how people quote Paul ad nauseaum...but we rarely hear anyone quoting from Jesus Christ.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Paul...but Paul did not die for me, FHII. Paul cannot give me eternal life. There is but one way to the Father....and it is not through Paul.
I think that if Paul had known that his letters would actually overshadow the Gospels, he would have burned them himself.

So, no...I was not looking to shame you, personally. Rather, shame on each one who dares to place Paul above the Lord, Himself.
Just knowing where the Sermon is makes you a rather rare duck, FHII...you'd be amazed how many people don't.
Christians ought to know such things as who Barabbas was, or who was Herod's first wife, don't you think?
It just seems to me that too many people are too much involved in trying to figure out how to justify themselves in their sin. They are attracted to Paul because they like the message they perceive him to be teaching...

How did we ever get to a place where Christians are willing to accept things like no-fault divorce, abortion on demand, gay marriage, etc? What happened to that old time religion, FHII? Why is it that even little kids think it's okay to pocket a cheap toy or a bit of candy while their parents shop? And their parents close their eyes to it, because, after all, everyone knows the stores overcharge, right? It's shrinkage...

Paul never taught what people are saying that he taught. Paul kept the law, himself, and when he found "another law in his members" he wanted to be saved from "this body of death"...

You accuse me of quoting only one verse from Paul...obviously, you have not been reading my posts...but how often do we hear from the lawless ones this same verse:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And yet they totally ignore the very next verse:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Or again:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Such a beautiful verse, isn't it?
So are the following verses:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Gladly will I ride a jackass, FHII. I'm kinda short for a high horse, anyhow.
Much rather would I ride a sweet little jackass....an ass and the foal of an ass....puts me in some pretty good Company.

Why do you not listen to my little jackass?
She has seen the angel in the way, FHII...and she is crying out a warning.
Please stop beating her...she's a good little jackass, after all....

 

[mjrhealth]

Please other than Christ, is there any one else who kept the law, is there any one who did it to teh lettter, is there anyone who did not sin because of the law.

Sin was here before the law and sin is till here.

Sin was here before Christ came and still is here now after His resurection.

Law or grace.

Now who will be the one to stand before God to BOAST how they kept the law. perfectly.

Find me one, just one beside Christ.

No one will ever be justifed before God by there works of the flesh. If we are not Justifed by teh works Christ did, than we are dead, and have no life.

 

[Barrd]

Please other than Christ, is there any one else who kept the law, is there any one who did it to teh lettter, is there anyone who did not sin because of the law.

Sin was here before the law and sin is till here.

Sin was here before Christ came and still is here now after His resurection.

Law or grace.

Now who will be the one to stand before God to BOAST how they kept the law. perfectly.

Find me one, just one beside Christ.

No one will ever be justifed before God by there works of the flesh. If we are not Justifed by teh works Christ did, than we are dead, and have no life.

Now, this is exactly what I am talking about.

Do you think that Christ's sacrifice will "justify" you, then? Do you even know Him? Are you even trying to follow Him?
Do you love Him, Mj?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Do you hear His voice, Mj? Do you follow Him? Do you walk the same narrow path of righteousness that He walks, that leads to life? Many walk the broad highway to death, Mj.

Do you love Him, Mj? I mean, really love Him?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
....
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Of course, in order to know His sayings, you kinda have to spend some time in the red writing.
But it is worth it, if you want to hear Him say to you:

Mat 25:34 .... Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Oh, what a blessed phrase! Of course, not everyone will hear those beautiful words. Unfortunately, there will be a great many wanna-bees who never really listened to Him or obeyed Him who will hear some very different words:

Mat 25:41 .... Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

It isn't about whether or not we can keep the law perfectly, Mj. Of course, we're going to "mess up"....that is what grace is for.
We are not perfect...if we were, we would not need a Savior at all.

It is all about how willing we are to try. We have His guarantee that, if we are willing to try, He will send us His Spirit to help us...and, in the fulness of time, we will be perfect, even as He is perfect.

And that is a goal worth striving for...

 

[StanJ]

Isn't every Christian baptized with the Holy Spirit, and with fire? I am a Christian, I have received His Spirit the same as any other Christian.
I am very much aware that the Holy Spirit dwells within each and every one that belongs to Christ, as Paul says:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No. Acts 19:1-7

I am aware that the Old Covenant is "done away" and has been replaced by a New and Better Covenant.

Then why do you keep advocating the old ways of the old Covenant be maintained under the New Covenant?

It's this idea that this New Covenant, with it's mercy and it's grace represents a license to sin that sort of frosts my cupcakes, Stan.
It is total disrespect for Jesus Christ and for His precious blood to claim that we may throw the rule book away.

No it doesn't, and that just shows your lack of understanding about the freedom we have in the New Covenant and the grace we have. There is no license to sin as John states very clearly in 1st John 2:1 and as does Paul in Roman 6:1-2. There is no rule book to throw away. What don't you get about the fact that God's laws are written on our hearts? It's not a rule book. The Bible is our arbitrator to know how God functions. But apparently you only accept the part that says Thou shalt not? That indicates a very legalistic point of view and not a relationship that brings with it freedom.

So, whose servant are you?

Well I'm God's child and I'm Jesus' brother and I am the servant of whoever God wants me to be. Seems you serve a set of rules you call the rule book.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
I know Whom I have trusted....do you?

Yes Barb, someone not something like a rule book 4 old Covenant law. No matter how many times you read it in the Bible you seem to miss the fact that it talks about a personal relationship with God not a personal relationship with a rule book.
Apparently you don't know because you're talking about a rule book and not a relationship. To quote the King James version of this verse that I learned very long ago, "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2Tim 1:12

 

[Barrd]

No. Acts 19:1-7

Yes.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We are, each of us, sealed with His spirit.

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

You did know, I'm sure, that John's baptism was transitional...and no longer exists? Of course, you knew that.

Then why do you keep advocating the old ways of the old Covenant be maintained under the New Covenant?

You have badly misunderstood me.
The New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant.
How?
For one thing, you won't need someone to teach you about God. You will know Him, personally.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them....

And that grace you keep talking about...is included:

Jer 31:34 ...for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

But, pay attention, here. This New Covenant is not a lawless covenant...not by a long shot. What does God say?
Jer 31:33 ...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts

No it doesn't, and that just shows your lack of understanding about the freedom we have in the New Covenant and the grace we have. There is no license to sin as John states very clearly in 1st John 2:1 and as does Paul in Roman 6:1-2. There is no rule book to throw away. What don't you get about the fact that God's laws are written on our hearts? It's not a rule book. The Bible is our arbitrator to know how God functions. But apparently you only accept the part that says Thou shalt not? That indicates a very legalistic point of view and not a relationship that brings with it freedom.

If, as you say, God's laws are written on your heart, then it should be second nature for you to keep them.
That being so, why do you fight so hard against obedience?

Well I'm God's child and I'm Jesus' brother and I am the servant of whoever God wants me to be. Seems you serve a set of rules you call the rule book.

I would rather be found fighting on the side of obedience, than chaos.

You are either the servant of sin unto death...or you are the servant of obedience unto righteousness.

There is no "option c."

Yes Barb, someone not something like a rule book 4 old Covenant law. No matter how many times you read it in the Bible you seem to miss the fact that it talks about a personal relationship with God not a personal relationship with a rule book.
Apparently you don't know because you're talking about a rule book and not a relationship. To quote the King James version of this verse that I learned very long ago, "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2Tim 1:12

First of all, we've known each other for too long for you to be calling me "Barb". My first name is actually Deborah. It's not that hard to remember. And my screen name, as you have known for months, is The Barrd. Not "Barb". I don't call you "Stab"...

I think you have missed the fact that I am the one who keeps lamenting that so many Christians do not even bother to read the red writing, much less quote it. Quick, now...who was Herod Antipas' first wife? Do you know? What did Jesus do for Mary Magdalene?
Or the one that really bites my cookies...who was Barabbas?
Bonus if you can tell me where to find the Sermon on the Mount without looking...

You all claim that you are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ...but do you even know Who He is?
Careful...many will say to Him in that day, " Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Obviously, these folks think that they "know Him"...and there is no indication that they did not actually do these things that they claim...
But what is the Lord's response?

 

[StanJ]

Yes.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Deal with the example in Acts 19 Barrd. Do you think it's wrong or do you think these verses disagree with what Paul taught in Acts 19:1-7? Again you refuse to address what is obviously being taught in the scripture I'm citing and equivocate about other scripture. That's not the way the Bible works, it doesn't contradict itself and it all agrees.

We are, each of us, sealed with His spirit.
You did know, I'm sure, that John's baptism was transitional...and no longer exists? Of course, you knew that.

Being sealed by the Holy Spirit and being baptized in water is not the same thing as being baptized in the holy spirit with power. John showed the difference in his own words. Acts 2:4 shows the baptism of the holy spirit with power that Jesus told his disciples and an extension all of us to wait for.

You have badly misunderstood me.
The New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant.
How?
For one thing, you won't need someone to teach you about God. You will know Him, personally.

More likely the issue is you have badly communicated but in any event make yourself clear and I won't have the chance to misunderstand you.
The New Covenant is different in every way not just one way. That includes obeying a written law that is obsolete. And trying to call it a real book when there is no rule book. Seems all you're doing here is backtracking?

And that grace you keep talking about...is included:
But, pay attention, here. This New Covenant is not a lawless covenant...not by a long shot. What does God say?

I wouldn't talk about paying attention when you're the one that doesn't pay attention. I completely understand what the New Covenant is all about. You're the one that keeps advocating that we're to use the Old Covenant written laws. But that is not the case. The Mosaic/Levitical laws are done away with and we now have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that allows us to be baptized with the power of the Holy Spirit and to recognize what we should and shouldn't do. That is the law that is written on our hearts. Nobody is saying that the New Covenant has no law except you.

If, as you say, God's laws are written on your heart, then it should be second nature for you to keep them.
That being so, why do you fight so hard against obedience?

Yes that's right, it pretty much is. Where exactly do you see me fighting against obedience. Quote it, show it, state facts rather than accusations.

I would rather be found fighting on the side of obedience, than chaos.
You are either the servant of sin unto death...or you are the servant of obedience unto righteousness.

Good, so do that, obey God's word and what it teaches, and stop ignoring the scriptures that show you clearly that we don't live buy a rule book.

 

[Barrd]

Deal with the example in Acts 19 Barrd. Do you think it's wrong or do you think these verses disagree with what Paul taught in Acts 19:1-7? Again you refuse to address what is obviously being taught in the scripture I'm citing and equivocate about other scripture. That's not the way the Bible works, it doesn't contradict itself and it all agrees.

I thought I "dealt with" those verses when I pointed out that John's baptism was temporary. Perhaps you missed it?

At this point in time, with the Baptist long dead and every Christian being baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is true that every Christian receives the Holy Spirit.

Being sealed by the Holy Spirit and being baptized in water is not the same thing as being baptized in the holy spirit with power. John showed the difference in his own words. Acts 2:4 shows the baptism of the holy spirit with power that Jesus told his disciples and an extension all of us to wait for.

I had forgotten that you were a [removed], Stan. My bad.
There is no separate "baptism of the Holy Spirit". The Bible does not teach that.
Yes, there is "power from on high", and yes, there are "gifts of the spirit"...even to our day. However, these gifts are very rare, just as they always were, and the gift of tongues is not some ooga booga nonsense babbling that nobody can understand. It never was...

More likely the issue is you have badly communicated but in any event make yourself clear and I won't have the chance to misunderstand you.

Stan, Stan, Stan...let's be honest with each other, here.
If I leave the tiniest little opening, you're going to rush in, guns blazing.
As I have said...we've known each other for several months...

The New Covenant is different in every way not just one way. That includes obeying a written law that is obsolete. And trying to call it a real book when there is no rule book. Seems all you're doing here is backtracking?

Let me try to make this as simple as possible.
Let's say you have a favorite book...I always liked 'The Big Fisherman', by Lloyd C. Douglas, but you may pick out any book you like.
You really like this book...but it's rather clumsy to carry around with you. You wish it would fit into your pocket...make it easier for you to have it on hand for those times when you have to sit and wait...like at the doctor's office, for instance.
Are you with me so far?

Okay...so, now your best friend buys you a special surprise for you birthday...it's a brand new Kindle! And, look...he's already downloaded your favorite book!

Now, you can fit the book into your pocket and carry it with you wherever you go. You can even download more books, if you like...you can carry an entire library around in your pocket. Neat, huh?

But, tell me...do the books still say the same thing that they did when they were printed on paper and bound in cardboard????

So, basically, it's the same book, right....it's just written in a different place.

Same idea....

I wouldn't talk about paying attention when you're the one that doesn't pay attention. I completely understand what the New Covenant is all about. You're the one that keeps advocating that we're to use the Old Covenant written laws. But that is not the case. The Mosaic/Levitical laws are done away with and we now have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that allows us to be baptized with the power of the Holy Spirit and to recognize what we should and shouldn't do. That is the law that is written on our hearts. Nobody is saying that the New Covenant has no law except you.

Whoa, boy. Settle down there, old fella.
I think that what I've been saying all along is that the New Covenant is NOT a lawless covenant.

Looks like I pinched a nerve....eh, Stan?

Yes that's right, it pretty much is. Where exactly do you see me fighting against obedience. Quote it, show it, state facts rather than accusations.

Fair enough.
So, are we to obey the Ten Commandments?
Or not?

Good, so do that, obey God's word and what it teaches, and stop ignoring the scriptures that show you clearly that we don't live buy a rule book.

So, it's the term "rule book" that has your panties in a bow?
Okay....how about I say something like....
Let's not throw away Granny's precious silver with the dishwater.
Would you like that better?

The fact is, where ever they are written, those precious Ten Words are immutable. They are the basic Laws that everything else is built upon. Without those laws, there would be no Christianity at all...

 

[Jun2u]

...but we rarely hear anyone quoting from Jesus Christ.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Paul...but Paul did not die for me, FHII. Paul cannot give me eternal life. There is but one way to the Father....and it is not through Paul.
I think that if Paul had known that his letters would actually overshadow the Gospels, he would have burned them himself.

Both the words of Jesus and Paul bring eternal life for the words they speak are derived from one Gospel which is the Bible. We read in 1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

This verse tell us that the things Paul wrote were commanded and inspired by God, just as we've learned that Moses and Jeremiah were commanded to write a book, as “holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them.”

I say this kindly but you see only a small part of a bigger picture. What this mean is that you still don't know how to connect the dots to get a bigger picture. We all went through this, well at least I have. Sometimes we can learn and be edified by what others say

I just remembered, and I've forgotten which topic it was, where there was a mention of the word “light.” It just dawned on me that the discussion was about the term, 'let there be light.' The discussions were about scientific things. Then out of the blue you made a statement, isn't Jesus the light? Wow, I said what an insight because Scripture do tell us that Jesus is the light of the world, but sadly, no one gave credence to your observation.

So don't be too harsh on people who tries to correct you only make sure he is faithful to the word of God.

To God Be The Glory