If you believe these are the end times, why do you not also believe great apostacy has come?

[Wrangler]

You have not accused me of saying something untrue. Still you are offended.

Speaks volumes.

No one really knows what you are saying! I'm trying to help you communicate so people can understand it.

I'm only offended at your lack of humility.

1. No thesis.
2. Just bash people and
3. proclaim yourself a prophet.

I'll show you by way of comparison. I have thought about starting a thread on why people don't believe the Bible.
Title/Thesis: Why people don't believe the Bible.

Scriptural Detail. Devotional Reading in Revelation. v 3:11 Jesus says "I'm coming soon."

Argument:
Stuff like this is why many people do not believe the Bible. After 2,000 years, it is difficult to hold that ‘soon’ is valid. Other verses clearly imply the Apostles thought the 2nd Coming would be in their lifetime. The often-poor explanation is to imply God does not know how to communicate to us as a day to him is like a thousand years to us for it violates 2 Cor 1:13 (VOICE) We are not writing to you in anything resembling codes or riddles.

Sometimes in our zeal to give answers, our passion exceeds the limits of our knowledge. I think we have to concede it is not very defensible based on our understanding. Rather, we should take solace that not even Jesus knew per Matthew 24:36.

Hook/What Reader Should Respond To Specifically

1. We don’t have to know. We have faith and God counts that as righteous, Amen?
2. Are there other verses that tend to turn people off and how should a saint respond to reconcile people to God?

I know you don't want to grasp the communication difference. But there it is.

Hope this helps.

 

[ScottA]

No one really knows what you are saying! I'm trying to help you communicate so people can understand it.

I'm only offended at your lack of humility.

1. No thesis.
2. Just bash people and
3. proclaim yourself a prophet.

I'll show you by way of comparison. I have thought about starting a thread on why people don't believe the Bible.
Title/Thesis: Why people don't believe the Bible.

Scriptural Detail. Devotional Reading in Revelation. v 3:11 Jesus says "I'm coming soon."

Argument:
Stuff like this is why many people do not believe the Bible. After 2,000 years, it is difficult to hold that ‘soon’ is valid. Other verses clearly imply the Apostles thought the 2nd Coming would be in their lifetime. The often-poor explanation is to imply God does not know how to communicate to us as a day to him is like a thousand years to us for it violates 2 Cor 1:13 (VOICE) We are not writing to you in anything resembling codes or riddles.

Sometimes in our zeal to give answers, our passion exceeds the limits of our knowledge. I think we have to concede it is not very defensible based on our understanding. Rather, we should take solace that not even Jesus knew per Matthew 24:36.

Hook/What Reader Should Respond To Specifically

1. We don’t have to know. We have faith and God counts that as righteous, Amen?
2. Are there other verses that tend to turn people off and how should a saint respond to reconcile people to God?

I know you don't want to grasp the communication difference. But there it is.

Hope this helps.

Memo to God and His prophets. :)

Thanks for cc'ing me!

 

[Truth7t7]

I have quoted the scriptures you have not reconciled and explained the whole truth, and you deny that I have even quoted them. For this reason you also are denied.

You just denied about half of all that is written...so, yeah, I see how you would feel that way.

Scott your interpretation of scripture is "Mystical Gobbly Goop" out in left field is a big understatement

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

• And who has considered that "the end" that Jesus spoke of was their own end occurring in their own time--as Paul said, "but each one in his own order?"

No one should understand Paul that way. Paul was talking about the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality and indicated that Christ's was first in order. Next in order are all of the dead who belong to Christ. They will be resurrected at His second coming in the future. At that point the end will come when Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

This is clearly not referring to the end of each believers' life, but rather to the end that will come "when he comes" and all of the dead who belong to Him are resurrected.

 

[Truth7t7]

No one really knows what you are saying! I'm trying to help you communicate so people can understand it.

I'm only offended at your lack of humility.

1. No thesis.
2. Just bash people and
3. proclaim yourself a prophet.

I Agree 100%, A Prophet In One's Own Mind And World

Jim Jones,, David Koresh, Is That You?

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Memo to God and His prophets. :)

Thanks for cc'ing me!

Scott do you believe you're a "Prophet Of God"?

 

[ScottA]

No one should understand Paul that way. Paul was talking about the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality and indicated that Christ's was first in order. Next in order are all of the dead who belong to Christ. They will be resurrected at His second coming in the future. At that point the end will come when Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

This is clearly not referring to the end of each believers' life, but rather to the end that will come "when he comes" and all of the dead who belong to Him are resurrected.

That certainly has been the popular belief for most of these past 2,000 years. However, it violates the principle and parable of the evil servant who came to say "My master is delaying his coming."

But if you are up to being reasonable, surely you have only expressed what the perspective is from the world's side of the equation or transition from theses times to eternity, and have not considered the greater perspective of God which does not include such but "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Thus, if I said "today is the time of salvation" it is true "but each one in his own order", just as both are written. To the contrary, the common belief that Christ "is delaying his coming" is not written except as a warning.

Who will rather consider the matters of God from His perspective? I will. And who will speak against it? God knows.

 

[ScottA]

Lord

Lord

 

[Enoch111]

They will be resurrected at His second coming in the future.

This is where a lot of Christians are confused. Christ comes WITH His resurrected and raptured saints at His Second Coming. So that is definitely NOT when the saints will be resurrected. That is when the wicked will be destroyed. Which means that the Resurrection/Rapture takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

More of Scott's "Mystical Gobbly Goop"

 

[jeffweeder]

This is where a lot of Christians are confused. Christ comes WITH His resurrected and raptured saints at His Second Coming. So that is definitely NOT when the saints will be resurrected. That is when the wicked will be destroyed. Which means that the Resurrection/Rapture takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming.

Sorry Enoch but you seem to top the list of those confused. You have not presented anything to back up your claims.
It should be a rule on this forum to present scriptures that supports what they assert.

That being said let me present what actually happens on the very day Jesus comes for all those who have believed. Paul includes himself with those saints at his coming in a flame of fire.


Notice the red highlight in the scripture below.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


First and foremost Jesus is coming in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked on the day he raptures and resurrects and changes us to glory.

Doesn't happen 7 or so years before does it Enoch?

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry Enoch but you seem to top the list of those confused. You have not presented anything to back up your claims.
It should be a rule on this forum to present scriptures that supports what they assert.

That being said let me present what actually happens on the very day Jesus comes for all those who have believed. Paul includes himself with those saints at his coming in a flame of fire.


Notice the red highlight in the scripture below.


5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


First and foremost Jesus is coming in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked on the day he raptures and resurrects and changes us to glory.

Doesn't happen 7 or so years before does it Enoch?

Good post I agree, Enoch sticks to standard protocol regarding a pre-trib rapture, just a those teaching reformed preterist eschatology in 70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD and Great Tribulation

Scary thing is, reformed eschatology completely denies a future literal human man as Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast) just to mention a few points

Don't throw rocks in a glass house, reformed preterist eschatology has numerous windows with broken glass

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Enoch111]

That being said let me present what actually happens on the very day Jesus comes for all those who have believed. Paul includes himself with those saints at his coming in a flame of fire.

Except that you have MISQUOTED that verse which says: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ "in flaming fire taking vengeance". Therefore it applies to the time when Christ comes with all the "clouds" from Heaven -- clouds of saints and angels, not rain clouds. That is exactly when He is glorified and admired by all believers. The problem that you are facing is how could Christ come WITH His saints if He had not already come FOR His saints earlier on?

 

[jeffweeder]

Except that you have MISQUOTED that verse which says: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ "in flaming fire taking vengeance". Therefore it applies to the time when Christ comes with all the "clouds" from Heaven -- clouds of saints and angels, not rain clouds. That is exactly when He is glorified and admired by all believers. The problem that you are facing is how could Christ come WITH His saints if He had not already come FOR His saints earlier on?

Of course it is a ref to the second coming.
He comes to glorify us, not the other way around. (your bolded). When he appears we will be like him for we shall see him as he is....having a body like his glorious body.

Phil 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are [even here and] now children of God, and it is not yet made clear what we will be [after His coming]. We know that when He comes and is revealed, we will [as His children] be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is [in all His glory].


He comes having in his hand the souls of those who have departed.
The living and the dead in Christ all marvel together at our change into a body like his glorious body when we meet him at his coming.


1Thess 4
13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, believers, about those who are asleep [in death], so that you will not grieve [for them] as the others do who have no hope [beyond this present life]. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [as in fact He did], even so God [in this same way—by raising them from the dead] will bring with Him those [believers] who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

 

[jeffweeder]

Good post I agree, Enoch sticks to standard protocol regarding a pre-trib rapture, just a those teaching reformed preterist eschatology in 70AD fulfillment of Daniel's AOD and Great Tribulation

You had to go and ruin your good intention lol

Fact is Truth 7t7 ( do you have a name Bro') that Jesus prophesied the temples destruction, not its rebuilding and destruction again.
The Lord tells us everything in advance you agree? Mk 13.

 

[stredaleve]

recently I encountered someone who told me these things and it made realized yes he was right he also did not share this verse it just came to mind
Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

the last church I joined was born again church
and the pastors there teaches the word of God(bible) and it was good unlike other religion who teaches myths but isn't what they were doing the things that the scribes and pharisees used to did to christ
if it is not written they wouldn't or we wouldn't believe any of it then aren't we turning out to be the same as the scribes and pharisees

christ teaches words that was not written in the book and he was condemned and persecuted because of it

but don't get me wrong matthew 5:20 do not end here this is probably just one of many

 

[ScottA]

As for the timing issues:

What are we talking about? Some--most, cannot help but focus on the events as they pertain to men and this world--I get that. But that is not what I was getting at in starting this thread. I was hoping to have a little more head scratching and considering of God's perspective and the events of God than what men cannot seem to agree upon regarding their own part and that of the world.

God's perspective on all these matters, is--"I am." No pre, mid, or post. Not this generation or that generation. Not a thousand years or a day. But just "I am"...as in "today is the time of salvation"--not when the thief on the cross got saved, or your grandpa, or you, or your kids--just "today." Which is the key to all the timing of godly events.

But around and round we go again like so many atheists debating the age of the universe, leaving God's perspective out of it except as it applies to our own life and times. And we're not getting anywhere, but continuing to beat our heads and repeat what has not worked since men have attempted to do the very same thing, over and over and over again.

Does no one actually want to look behind the curtain?

 

[stredaleve]

I only realizes that he was right when I denied myself and clear up my mind and read again
go to a neutral position first before you judge
for you not to be influence by your own pride

 

[Truth7t7]

You had to go and ruin your good intention lol

Fact is Truth 7t7 ( do you have a name Bro') that Jesus prophesied the temples destruction, not its rebuilding and destruction again.
The Lord tells us everything in advance you agree? Mk 13.

As has been shown several times, Matthew Chapter 24 in Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation, these are future events unfulfilled, reformed preterist eschatology teaches they are fulfilled "Wrong"

The scary part of reformed eschatology is denial of a future literal human man as Pauls (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast)

Jeff you can't dismiss the future literal human figure seen below, that reformed eschatology pushes off as symbolic allegory

We agree in Jesus returning in literal fire in destruction, and no Millennial Kingdom following, but reformed eschatology is dangerous in its interpretation of the future literal human figure that will cause Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation

2 Thessalonians 2:1-10KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Truth7t7]

Which means that the Resurrection/Rapture takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming.

Your Claim Is "False"

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.