If you believe these are the end times, why do you not also believe great apostacy has come?

[Enoch111]

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

"The last day" extends for OVER 1,000 YEARS. How do we know this? Because the resurrection of the righteous dead is not at the same time as that of the unrighteous dead. They are separated by over 1,000 years. See Revelation 20.

 

[Truth7t7]

"The last day" extends for OVER 1,000 YEARS. How do we know this? Because the resurrection of the righteous dead is not at the same time as that of the unrighteous dead. They are separated by over 1,000 years. See Revelation 20.

Your claim is 100% "False"

The Day Of The Lord Will Come "Quickly" And It Will Be "The Last Day" Of Earth's Existence At The "Second Coming", Your Claim That It Last's 1,000 Years Long Is "Laughable", As You Bend And Twist The Very Clear Scripture Below

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That certainly has been the popular belief for most of these past 2,000 years. However, it violates the principle and parable of the evil servant who came to say "My master is delaying his coming."

No, it doesn't. Scripture clearly teaches that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Christ returns. That is VERY clear. You can see that in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as well. You are trying too hard if you can't see something as obvious as that.

But if you are up to being reasonable, surely you have only expressed what the perspective is from the world's side of the equation or transition from theses times to eternity, and have not considered the greater perspective of God which does not include such but "is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Thus, if I said "today is the time of salvation" it is true "but each one in his own order", just as both are written. To the contrary, the common belief that Christ "is delaying his coming" is not written except as a warning.

Who will rather consider the matters of God from His perspective? I will. And who will speak against it? God knows.

I don't know what you're talking about with this delaying His coming stuff. No one can say that He has delayed His coming even now because with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousands years is as a day. He's not delaying His coming. Read 2 Peter 3:3-13. Only scoffers who don't know anything would say such a thing. It hasn't been long from the Lord's perspective and that is all that matters.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is where a lot of Christians are confused. Christ comes WITH His resurrected and raptured saints at His Second Coming. So that is definitely NOT when the saints will be resurrected. That is when the wicked will be destroyed. Which means that the Resurrection/Rapture takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming.

It looks like you are the one who is confused with your false pre-trib rapture doctrine that cannot be supported by scripture whatsoever. Christ will come with the souls of the dead in Christ and their bodies will be resurrected at that time. You probably think the following is talking about a pre-trib rapture. Well, who are the ones coming with Christ in this passage in your view then?

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Can you see here that it describes people coming with Jesus when this event happens? Who else could that be except for the souls of the dead in Christ? No one would have their immortal body yet at this point (except Jesus).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"The last day" extends for OVER 1,000 YEARS. How do we know this? Because the resurrection of the righteous dead is not at the same time as that of the unrighteous dead. They are separated by over 1,000 years. See Revelation 20.

So, you don't accept what Jesus taught here then?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

You believe in 2 completely separate times that are coming when the dead will be raised but Jesus said a time is coming when all of the dead will be raised. You can't turn "a time" into over 1,000 years. That isn't reasonable. He's clearly saying that a singular event is coming during which all of the dead will be raised. That lines up with Daniel 12:1-2 as well. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 contradicts those passages.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As for the timing issues:

What are we talking about? Some--most, cannot help but focus on the events as they pertain to men and this world--I get that. But that is not what I was getting at in starting this thread. I was hoping to have a little more head scratching and considering of God's perspective and the events of God than what men cannot seem to agree upon regarding their own part and that of the world.

God's perspective on all these matters, is--"I am." No pre, mid, or post. Not this generation or that generation. Not a thousand years or a day. But just "I am"...as in "today is the time of salvation"--not when the thief on the cross got saved, or your grandpa, or you, or your kids--just "today." Which is the key to all the timing of godly events.

But around and round we go again like so many atheists debating the age of the universe, leaving God's perspective out of it except as it applies to our own life and times. And we're not getting anywhere, but continuing to beat our heads and repeat what has not worked since men have attempted to do the very same thing, over and over and over again.

Does no one actually want to look behind the curtain?

Why do you speak in riddles? Just get to the point already. What are you trying to say here? There's no reason to be mysterious about it.

 

[Enoch111]

So, you don't accept what Jesus taught here then?

Actually Jesus used "the last day" as a figure of speech. We have also been in "the last days" (plural) since His first coming (Heb 1:2). So the issue boils down to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. The Bible makes it crystal clear that the resurrection of the saved and the resurrection of the damned are NOT on the same day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Except that you have MISQUOTED that verse which says: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ "in flaming fire taking vengeance". Therefore it applies to the time when Christ comes with all the "clouds" from Heaven -- clouds of saints and angels, not rain clouds. That is exactly when He is glorified and admired by all believers. The problem that you are facing is how could Christ come WITH His saints if He had not already come FOR His saints earlier on?

Why would anyone think that Christ would come to be glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe at some other time than the event described in 1 Thess 4:14-17? That makes no sense. He will come both WITH and FOR His saints at the same time. He will come WITH the souls of the dead in Christ from heaven and they will be united with their resurrected and changed immortal bodies. He is coming FOR those who are alive and remain at that point. Very simple.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually Jesus used "the last day" as a figure of speech. We have also been in "the last days" (plural) since His first coming (Heb 1:2). So the issue boils down to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. The Bible makes it crystal clear that the resurrection of the saved and the resurrection of the damned are NOT on the same day.

Did you even read the passage I quoted, which was John 5:28-29? It doesn't even mention "the last day". He said in that passage that a time (not times) is coming when all of the dead will be raised. You, on the other hand, believe that multiple times or days are coming when the dead will be raised which blatantly contradicts what Jesus said in John 5:28-29.

 

[Truth7t7]

"The last day" extends for OVER 1,000 YEARS. How do we know this? Because the resurrection of the righteous dead is not at the same time as that of the unrighteous dead. They are separated by over 1,000 years. See Revelation 20.

Your Claim Is 100% "False"

The Righteous And Wicked Are Resurrected On The "Same Day" John 5:28-29 (All That Are In The Graves Shall Come Forth) How Long Will You Continue To Bend And Twist The Very Clear Scripture Below Before Your Eyes?

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Enoch111]

Why would anyone think that Christ would come to be glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe at some other time than the event described in 1 Thess 4:14-17? That makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense in the context of Christ coming to deal with His enemies and establish His Kingdom on earth while accompanied by all His saints and angels. And that is totally different from coming FOR His Bride and celebrate the Marriage of the Lamb. Do you get it?

 

[ScottA]

No, it doesn't. Scripture clearly teaches that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Christ returns. That is VERY clear. You can see that in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as well. You are trying too hard if you can't see something as obvious as that.

This is the greatest error of the church age, so it is important to consider it without any other issues on the table.

Indeed, Paul explained in the way it would appear--that is in the way it would appear in the world. But I am not referring to the things of this world, but rather of the kingdom of God. None of what occurs the lives and times of all that are saved by the salvation of Christ in this world is actually a factor, but rather only what occurs in Christ is a factor, with whom there is but One salvation and one resurrection unto eternal life, which is His going to the Father. While all of the scriptures that would appear to be breaking down a different timeline of events regarding all of these things--they are of this world, and not of God in whom there is not timeline, "no shadow of turning", meaning no time.

This is the meaning of what Paul referred to as "rightly dividing the world of truth." Meaning that without "dividing" time events from God events, there can be no understanding.

As for what the scriptures do teach regarding the time events of the resurrection, do also consider (and include) that Paul also included a "but" in what he taught, saying, "but each one in his own order."

But most have not and will not believe what I have just told you--although it is written. But this is "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God [has sent] them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie." Which Jesus warned of in the parable of the "evil servant."

All of which was to come...including being lead unto all truth.

 

[ScottA]

I don't know what you're talking about with this delaying His coming stuff. No one can say that He has delayed His coming even now because with the Lord a day is as a thousand years and a thousands years is as a day. He's not delaying His coming. Read 2 Peter 3:3-13. Only scoffers who don't know anything would say such a thing. It hasn't been long from the Lord's perspective and that is all that matters.

Here:

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51​

​

But, no, it is not only scoffers who say Jesus is delaying his coming...but it is what has been believed and taught by most since the first days of the church, by false teachers warned of by Peter, and the believing of a lie, by Paul.

 

[ScottA]

Why do you speak in riddles? Just get to the point already. What are you trying to say here? There's no reason to be mysterious about it.

Don't misunderstand--it is not my mystery, but God's, who has only revealed "here a little, there a little" to His chosen; and riddles and parables are of His doing too, having confused all language at Babel--which has not been rescinded, that only those with spiritual discernment should understand, and only then according to His revealing in the fulness of time.

But knowing what I know from God who caught me up in the spirit for just such a purpose--I could no more speak in my own way if I wanted to, for that is not the way it works. Likewise, if no one hears or understands, I have done my part and the truth has been told, not by me, but by Him.

 

[Wrangler]

if no one hears or understands, I have done my part

You sure have.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It makes perfect sense in the context of Christ coming to deal with His enemies and establish His Kingdom on earth while accompanied by all His saints and angels. And that is totally different from coming FOR His Bride and celebrate the Marriage of the Lamb. Do you get it?

No, I don't get your false doctrine at all. He is coming WITH the souls of the dead in Christ and His angels for His saints with immortal bodies. Do you get that? You should. It's very simple. Turning it into two completely different events contradicts scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Don't misunderstand--it is not my mystery, but God's, who has only revealed "here a little, there a little" to His chosen; and riddles and parables are of His doing too, having confused all language a Babel--which has not been rescinded, that only those with spiritual discernment should understand, and only then according to His revealing in the fulness of time.

But knowing what I know from God who caught me up in the spirit for just such a purpose--I could no more speak in my own way if I wanted to, for that is not the way it works. Likewise, if no one hears or understands, I have done my part and the truth has been told, not by me, but by Him.

There is no reason at all for you to not be straightforward here. You're not Jesus, so you don't need to talk in parables here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here:

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51​

​

But, no, it is not only scoffers who say Jesus is delaying his coming...but it is what has been believed and taught by most since the first days of the church, by false teachers warned of by Peter, and the believing of a lie, by Paul.

Do you understand that even though He has not yet come no one can claim that He has delayed His coming because it's about His timing, not man's? From His perspective, He is not being slow to return (2 Peter 3:9), so His coming is not being delayed no matter how long it takes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the greatest error of the church age, so it is important to consider it without any other issues on the table.

Indeed, Paul explained in the way it would appear--that is in the way it would appear in the world. But I am not referring to the things of this world, but rather of the kingdom of God. None of what occurs the lives and times of all that are saved by the salvation of Christ in this world is actually a factor, but rather only what occurs in Christ is a factor, with whom there is but One salvation and one resurrection unto eternal life, which is His going to the Father. While all of the scriptures that would appear to be breaking down a different timeline of events regarding all of these things--they are of this world, and not of God in whom there is not timeline, "no shadow of turning", meaning no time.

This is the meaning of what Paul referred to as "rightly dividing the world of truth." Meaning that without "dividing" time events from God events, there can be no understanding.

As for what the scriptures do teach regarding the time events of the resurrection, do also consider (and include) that Paul also included a "but" in what he taught, saying, "but each one in his own order."

But most have not and will not believe what I have just told you--although it is written. But this is "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God [has sent] them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie." Which Jesus warned of in the parable of the "evil servant."

All of which was to come...including being lead unto all truth.

I already told you. The order Paul gave was Christ first (happened long ago) and next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming. Very simple. You are needlessly turning something simple into something convoluted that only you understand.

 

[jeffweeder]

Do you understand that even though He has not yet come no one can claim that He has delayed His coming because it's about His timing, not man's? From His perspective, He is not being slow to return (2 Peter 3:9), so His coming is not being delayed no matter how long it takes.

The Lord from a distance saw the birth of us all in this century and just had to extend his patience so we could be a part of all he wants to give us. The time is upon us when God decides there is nothing for him to look forward to, which is a horrifying thought he had previously in the days of Noah.
The Lords intervention a second time therefore is truly climactic and makes a future millennial reign completely untenable.