I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"

[O'Darby]

Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Ritajanice]

Reality of becoming “ Born Again “ can only come by the witness of the Holy Spirit....there is NO pretence in being “ Born Again “ you either are or you “ ain’t”.... imo....how do you explain being “ Born Of The Spirit “....?

It’s our spirit that needs to be “ Born Again “ ...who can only do that supernatural act?

If one has been Born Of The Spirit, there is NO getting away from that, it’s a DONE deal, God has you and you are His!...only the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children....

That is something you can never move away from, imo, we were bought at a price, that price was the death and resurrection of Jesus, God chose us for his own purpose and plan, and his will be done through us, there is no stopping it....this is my own testimony/ opinion and belief.

A Born Again can only be led by the Holy Spirit...not man made doctrine.

 

[Mr E]

Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

Anyone moving in a less dogmatic direction, is moving in the right direction. By the way-- the orthodox, dogmatic, believers-- would call this 'falling away.' Interesting that scripture calls attention to the problem of believers who have "fallen asleep."

The slumber of Christianity happens in comfortable pews or padded stadium seats where Christians nestle together to be told more about all the things they've already been told. It's a gathering of the like-minded, kind of the way cattle or sheep operations work.



Stop me if you've heard this one.

It's come to the point, my friend O'Darby-- where one no longer needs to qualify the term by saying "pretend" Christianity, because there is no real alternative. There's no one baking fresh bread.

 

[Cyd]

Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.

I did a google search for that and wow... you are right. Maybe God is showing you not to trust anyone but out of the mouth of God. Showing what happens when trust is placed on anything but Almighty God himself. A wake up call of this:

Mt 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I get shocked when there are so many that can't even tell what is spoken by Almighty God or man in this book called the Bible.

 

[Pearl]

I have read all the Narnia Chronicles a number of times and went to see 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe' at the cinema when it first came out. I watched the evil white queen/witch turn Aslan's followers into blocks of ice with a touch of her wand. I wept.

Sitting there in the dark of the cinema I realised that this is what Satan does to many followers of Jesus. He renders them ineffective and inactive so that they are unable to fight the spiritual battles.

Then Aslan finds them frozen and lifeless and breathes on them, bringing them back to life. And this is what the Holy Spirit does for us in real life. We used to sing, 'Breathe on me Breath of God, fill me with life anew.' But mostly without the understanding of what that really means.

To be effective as followers of Jesus, as the Church, we need the Holy Spirit to breathe new life into us each day. And all we need to do is ask.

And the bible tells us about Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones and how God fleshed them out and breathed life into them so that they became a vast army.

Please God bring your Church back to life by breathing on what has become dry and lifeless so that once more your Church will be all you desire and be a light to those in darkness. Amen

 

[Mr E]

I have read all the Narnia Chronicles a number of times and went to see 'The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe' at the cinema when it first came out. I watched the evil white queen/witch turn Aslan's followers into blocks of ice with a touch of her wand. I wept.

Sitting there in the dark of the cinema I realised that this is what Satan does to many followers of Jesus. He renders them ineffective and inactive so that they are unable to fight the spiritual battles.

Then Aslan finds them frozen and lifeless and breathes on them, bringing them back to life. And this is what the Holy Spirit does for us in real life. We used to sing, 'Breathe on me Breath of God, fill me with life anew.' But mostly without the understanding of what that really means.

To be effective as followers of Jesus, as the Church, we need the Holy Spirit to breathe new life into us each day. And all we need to do is ask.

And the bible tells us about Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones and how God fleshed them out and breathed life into them so that they became a vast army.

Please God bring your Church back to life by breathing on what has become dry and lifeless so that once more your Church will be all you desire and be a light to those in darkness. Amen

Lewis gives a great peek into 'the other realm' and it's cyclical nature.

 

[O'Darby]

Reality of becoming “ Born Again “ can only come by the witness of the Holy Spirit....there is NO pretence in being “ Born Again “ you either are or you “ ain’t”.... imo....how do you explain being “ Born Of The Spirit “....?

It’s our spirit that needs to be “ Born Again “ ...who can only do that supernatural act?

If one has been Born Of The Spirit, there is NO getting away from that, it’s a DONE deal, God has you and you are His!...only the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children....

That is something you can never move away from, imo, we were bought at a price, that price was the death and resurrection of Jesus, God chose us for his own purpose and plan, and his will be done through us, there is no stopping it....this is my own testimony/ opinion and belief.

A Born Again can only be led by the Holy Spirit...not man made doctrine.

I don't dispute this at all. If you read my testimony on my blog, you'll see that I had a startling born again experience at age 20 when being born again was the farthest thing from my mind. Being born again and being neck-deep in "pretend Christianity" are, IMO, two very different things.

O'Darby's Slightly Odd Testimony

My long and winding journey from being born again to actually believing.

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Lambano]

I don't dispute this at all. If you read my testimony on my blog, you'll see that I had a startling born again experience at age 20 when being born again was the farthest thing from my mind. Being born again and being neck-deep in "pretend Christianity" are, IMO, two very different things.

Ever want to tell someone, "Don't preach at me from the Bible; I'm quite capable of reading it for myself. Instead, show me with your life what it means to be 'born again'."?

 

[Lambano]

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

That's a damn good question. Lord, you promised to send us a helper. Well? Why do we still have feet of clay?

I used to listen to Ravi's "Let my people think" program. I liked him.

 

[Ritajanice]

I don't dispute this at all. If you read my testimony on my blog, you'll see that I had a startling born again experience at age 20 when being born again was the farthest thing from my mind. Being born again and being neck-deep in "pretend Christianity" are, IMO, two very different things.

O'Darby's Slightly Odd Testimony

My long and winding journey from being born again to actually believing.

www.christianityboard.com

Amen!!...I can relate to your testimony, mine was the same, being Born Again never even entered my mind also...mind blowing!!..being Born Of The Spirit../ Born Again..

Yes!!..Born Again and pretend being Born Again are two very different things ....

 

[Pearl]

I used to listen to Ravi's "Let my people think" program. I liked him.

I liked him too. He was a good preacher even though he may not have lived in a truly righteous way.

 

[Mr E]

I liked him too. He was a good preacher even though he may not have lived in a truly righteous way.

That's a very polite way of saying he was a complete phony and a hypocrite of the worst kind.

 

[marks]

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

I am personally convinced that Christianity is real, the God of the Bible is real. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I know a being who is outside of this creation, who loves me, and who is working in my life healing and growth.

This is what matters the most, as I see it, that you truly know God. If you do, if you know that you know that you know, hold on, and don't let anyone or anything shake you from your confidence in Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I liked him too. He was a good preacher even though he may not have lived in a truly righteous way.

How many people are a mixed bag? I sure am!

I know we like nice and simple but I for one don't find life - or people - to be so simple. I find lots of mixture in people - Christians - as we are all still being renewed.

I pity the man his internal torments assuming he knew the Lord. I pity his eternal torments if he did not.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's a damn good question. Lord, you promised to send us a helper. Well? Why do we still have feet of clay?

I used to listen to Ravi's "Let my people think" program. I liked him.

Perhaps this all transpired according to God's plan. Perhaps there was much good that came through a very flawed clay pot?

Why do we still have feet of clay? So we don't forget we are made from dirt. That's what I think.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

I am personally convinced that Christianity is real, the God of the Bible is real. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I know a being who is outside of this creation, who loves me, and who is working in my life healing and growth.

This is what matters the most, as I see it, that you truly know God. If you do, if you know that you know that you know, hold on, and don't let anyone or anything shake you from your confidence in Him.

Much love!

Indeed my friend our God is real and His Word is real. It is all the rest of what our carnal senses perceive which may in fact be fictitious.

 

[Pearl]

That's a very polite way of saying he was a complete phony and a hypocrite of the worst kind.

Maybe he was but the messages he peached were good. So do we ignore all the good stuff because of what came put about him later? Did the unrighteousness cancel out all the good stuff.

 

[Pearl]

Perhaps this all transpired according to God's plan. Perhaps there was much good that came through a very flawed clay pot?

Why do we still have feet of clay? So we don't forget we are made from dirt. That's what I think.

Much love!

Psalm 103:14
As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

 

[marks]

Psalm 103:14
As a father has compassion on his children,
so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

This is one of the Scriptures on my wall at home. Never to be forgotten!

Much love!

 

[O'Darby]

Perhaps this all transpired according to God's plan. Perhaps there was much good that came through a very flawed clay pot?

Why do we still have feet of clay? So we don't forget we are made from dirt. That's what I think.

Much love!

That's definitely putting lipstick on a pig, but OK.

Again, my point is not that Ravi was a fraud. My point has little to do with Ravi per se. I liked Ravi myself, but knowing he was a complete fraud does undercut the message "just a bit."

My larger point is, does God just sit back and watch as umpteen other Christian leaders look like undiscerning fools, a loving family is crushed, a worldwide ministry collapses, legions of devout followers have their faith damaged if not destroyed, and those who despise Christianity are handed yet another reason to ridicule and despise it? There was NOTHING God could do?

Sure, we are FORCED to say "Well, of course, God could easily have stopped all this in its tracks - but since He didn't, then surely all this was His plan and great good will come of it." We are ALWAYS forced to say this, over and over and over. Do we ever get tired of making excuses for God? Is that the test of real faith? At some point, I think a more honest question is, "Is any of this real?"

I believe in a personal, providential Creator God for reasons having little or nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible per se. I planted my flag in Christianity for the reasons stated in my testimony, but I'm honest enough to admit I'm having grave doubts as to whether all the things one must accept to be deemed a "Christian" are worth the cost to my sanity - or, indeed, whether being a whoop-de-doo "Bible believing Christian" is what Jesus was talking about AT ALL.