I'm starting to move away from "pretend Christianity"

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marks

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That's definitely putting lipstick on a pig, but OK.
Rather, maybe the pig was turned into a man who still acted pigish.

We are ALWAYS forced to say this, over and over and over. Do we ever get tired of making excuses for God?
We have very very different ways of thinking about this. I truly believe God is in charge, and these things don't throw me off balance.

And I do in fact fully trust His Word, the Bible.

Much love!
 
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O'Darby

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I am personally convinced that Christianity is real, the God of the Bible is real. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I know a being who is outside of this creation, who loves me, and who is working in my life healing and growth.

This is what matters the most, as I see it, that you truly know God. If you do, if you know that you know that you know, hold on, and don't let anyone or anything shake you from your confidence in Him.

Much love!
If you claim "no doubt," you are pretending right there. You have "a strong conviction," not no doubt.

I likewise have a strong conviction that I know a being who is outside of this creation and who has been at work in my life in a providential way. My concern is that what it has come to mean to "believe the Bible" and "be a Christian" may be so far from what Jesus was talking about that simply stepping off the path may be the wiser - and, indeed, more pleasing to God - choice.
 
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marks

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If you claim "no doubt," you are pretending right there.
Why do you say this? I don't have any doubt. Perhaps you do, and think that everyone does? But I don't. I'm absolutely certain.

I likewise have a strong conviction that I know a being who is outside of this creation and who has been at work in my life in a providential way. My concern is that what it has come to mean to "believe the Bible" and "be a Christian" may be so far from what Jesus was talking about that simply stepping off the path may be the wiser - and, indeed, more pleasing to God - choice.
I don't have a "strong conviction". I know.

Maybe we should speak of such things as concern having authentic Christianity? Does the fact that a man who names Christ sins matter towards the authenticity of your own faith?

Much love!
 
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marks

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My concern is that what it has come to mean to "believe the Bible" and "be a Christian" may be so far from what Jesus was talking about that simply stepping off the path may be the wiser - and, indeed, more pleasing to God - choice.
How do you know the right path? This is where I stick with the Bible itself as the most sound teaching I can receive.

"to be a Christian" simply means to be like Christ. They were called Christians because they acted like Christ. We call people Christians when they say they believe. I think of a Christian as one who has been reborn, having been baptized into Christ.

God through Jeremiah cautioned His people,

Jeremiah 6:16 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

How are we to know which is the good way?

Much love!
 

MatthewG

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It only boils down to two things and that is Faith and love. The Spirit of God that dwells in you, is where the love comes from. Because God is love.

While people may have their fleshly fun with debates and quips of here is a scripture, like a dagger knife into the ear of someone.

None of those discords are gonna matter at the end of your life cause people are gonna believe whatever they want. Period. You may give them something to think on, but they have to choose to believe in the gospel or not.
 
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O'Darby

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Why do you say this? I don't have any doubt. Perhaps you do, and think that everyone does? But I don't. I'm absolutely certain.
Because you are claiming to know something that it is humanly impossible to know. You obviously didn't read my blog entry, but every mature Christian theologist and apologist accepts that a modicum of doubt is inherent in faith. If you really had no doubt, you wouldn't need faith.
I don't have a "strong conviction". I know.

Maybe we should speak of such things as concern having authentic Christianity? Does the fact that a man who names Christ sins matter towards the authenticity of your own faith?

Much love!
Do you think you can define "authentic Christianity"? Please, do it for us.

Does the fact that a supposed Christian sins matter to my faith? Not at all. I sin and accept it as part and parcel of my human condition, even as a Christian.

Again, I think you're missing the point. Ravi was largely a fraud but that's neither here nor there to me. It's the need for Christians to continually hypothesize excuses for God in circumstances such as this that calls into question the reality of the Whole Thing - or at least calls into question whether our "Christian" understanding of the Whole Thing is just flat Wrong.
 
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SavedInHim

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Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.
I hear ya. I don't know what the ratio is of true to pretend Christianity; but I know the amount of pretend Christianity is very high. 95% may not be far off the mark. We've been warned these day would come. I'm just surprised more people can't see it; or if they do, they don't know how to find the real thing.
 

Phil .

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Doubt is an emotion. Not an object one has.

It has nothing to do with knowing. It has everything to do with feeling.

Listen to the doubt, as in, do not judge it as “bad”, rather… allow the emotion to be welcomed, included & felt fully, and align thought with feeling accordingly.

Feeling is never going to align to thought. A compass points true north only, without exception, for good reason.
Thought can be aligned with feeling; but only now.
(Never in a past or future.)
Which works out perfectly, as the guidance of emotion is also only now.
(Never in a past or future.)

See for yourself as it were, what is real and what is not.
 
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O'Darby

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Listen to the doubt, as in, do not judge it as “bad”, rather… allow the emotion to be welcomed, included & felt fully, and align thought with feeling accordingly.
Yes, mature believers do embrace the doubt and recognize it is inherent in faith.

The mature attitude is something like, "I care enough about my faith to examine and accept my doubt. That I persist in my faith despite my doubt tells me that my faith is real. I'm not just pretending or hiding from what I honestly believe."

Insisting we "know" and "have no doubt" is part of the pretend Christianity I'm talking about. There is simply too much mystery in theism in general and Christianity in particular to pretend to be free of doubt.

I think at least some spark of doubt has to exist at the very foundation: It's just possible that NONE of this is REAL AT ALL, but I have enough faith to keep plugging away as though it is.
 
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Phil .

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Yes, mature believers do embrace the doubt and recognize it is inherent in faith.
Who knows. I’m just suggesting doubt is an emotion.

The mature attitude is something like, "I care enough about my faith to examine and accept my doubt. That I persist in my faith despite my doubt tells me that my faith is real. I'm not just pretending or hiding from what I honestly believe."
I’m suggesting doubt is not an object, fact, situation, etc which could be accepted.
Only that doubt is an emotion, which is felt.

Insisting we "know" and "have no doubt" is part of the pretend Christianity I'm talking about. There is simply too much mystery in theism in general and Christianity in particular to pretend to be free of doubt.
That statement “we have no doubt” is true. Just like “we have no overwhelment” is true.
Doubt & overwhelment are emotions. Emotions may or may not be felt presently, but an emotions are not objects so no one ever ‘has doubt’ or ‘has overwhelment’.
Emotion is like a sunset. There is an experience of, but one doesn’t ’have a sunset’.

I think at least some spark of doubt has to exist at the very foundation: It's just possible that NONE of this is REAL AT ALL, but I have enough faith to keep plugging away as though it is.
Where do you think you’re going or getting to exactly?
 
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marks

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Because you are claiming to know something that it is humanly impossible to know. You obviously didn't read my blog entry, but every mature Christian theologist and apologist accepts that a modicum of doubt is inherent in faith. If you really had no doubt, you wouldn't need faith.
Why do you say it's humanly impossible to know your Creator?? Can He not make Himself known to me? He has in fact. Having faith doesn't rule out coming to having certainty.

Do you think you can define "authentic Christianity"? Please, do it for us.
No. I'm inviting you to have a conversation with me if you are so inclined. As you seem to not be so inclined, there is no need to proceed.

Much love!
 
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marks

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With love, that isn’t true (or possible).
Your evidence?

I have my evidence, that's how I know. What makes you think I don't?

You are about to find yourself trying to prove a negative, btw.

Much love!
 

Phil .

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Your evidence?

I have my evidence, that's how I know. What makes you think I don't?

You are about to find yourself trying to prove a negative, btw.

Much love!
Thinker is the thought, thinker.
Someone trying to prove something, is the thought, someone trying to prove something.
I know, is the thought, I know.
Self-evident. Pretending this is not the case, is what this thread is about.
 

BlessedPeace

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Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.
There was something about Ravi that I never liked. I'd listen to his speeches on You Tube and it was hollow. There was no substance,just air.

I don't think yet another fraud in a pulpit is a qualification to throw our faith into question.

Amounting to how God let a wolf into the sheepfold, so is there really a shepherd present?

That being said, we will never know what Yeshua actually said during his ministry.

If anyone knew this it is Omniscient God.
You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Maybe that is the wisdom
Yeshua shared with us because his holy Spirit is always within us. From the time we are conceived unto the last breath we take, we are never apart from that spirit of creator that created us.

We are born into a world that today is so twisted as to make it appear as if Hell has vomited back to life all the evil civilizations God judged and wiped from the earth in the past.

And it is totally acceptable to wonder if,for over 2000 years Yeshua's guidance has blanketed the majority of people's here,why that is.

One of the reasons Jews don't believe Yeshua is Messiah is because when Messiah arrives,there shall be world peace.

Instead, the world is even more deeply fallen.

Maybe that is because we've been led to believe in the controls, the limitations,the ultimatums, other earlier men have instituted,in the name of God, so to issue and insure their dominion as monitors and purveyors of the doctrine they controlled and spread through campaigns of mass slaughter, for centuries.

Which then would explain why new converts to a convert or die agenda would be told "God said"...as a slave,obey your masters. As a victim of violence,take it ,turn the other cheek,and love your offender.

And if they want your money,give them the clothes off your back too.

Obey those put in power over you. Be that interpretation to apply to pastors,or secular governors. Because they are seated there by our God.

Interesting,in Rome,where our scriptures originated in New testament form, Caesar was considered to be a god.
In subsequent secular governments elsewhere, the King of Britain is considered to be God's anointed Sovereign.

In America,Presidents and all members of the three branches typically swear their oath of office with the help of God.

Even though God's OT word,that Rome could not alter, says we are never to swear by God or his name.

Rather we are to let our yes be yes,and our no be no.


So, maybe what we are following is pretend christianity.

Just look at how it divides the world to this day. And scripture tells us Jesus promised that believing in him would do just that. Among our family and others. Which is not a characteristic of the Messiah of prophecy.

Another flag,if there are any, is, those in the faith who seek to teach we are separate from all things pertaining to the Jews.

Paul, a Pharisee, is said to have written that we are all one in Christ.

But that ecumenism is not the identity of the Jewish Messiah either.

But many of us don't know,wouldn't know,that. Because the Jews were thought to be mongerils compared to Rome. And we've been led to think ours is a new way. And is now removed from all things Jewish.

Which would then make that exodus idea the possible cause for why this world where we are said to be in majority as believers, is such a failure representing a new covenant of peace through Christ.

Because for all these millennia we're just another bunch of Romans thinking to rule the world our way.
 
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Traveler

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Increasingly, the phrase "pretend Christianity" has been in my mind. Google the phrase and you'll find it’s in a lot of peoples' minds. I'm frankly beginning to wonder if about 95% of what passes for belief is really just pretend Christianity. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if there is any reality to all this at all.

All the hoopla that surrounds lots of peoples' Christianity – church activities, Bible studies, happy talk of God and Jesus, yada yada – I'm beginning to wonder if it disguises the fact most folks have no real belief at all and know they're just pretending. It brings to mind the Emperor's New Clothes: We won't admit, even to ourselves, that we're mostly just pretending and everything will be fine. As long as we all pretend together, everything will be fine.

The downfall of Ravi Zacharias a few years ago was a turning point for me. As you may or may not know, Ravi was one of the greatest Christian apologists of modern times. He was called things like "the most godly man in the world" and "a worthy successor to Billy Graham." He had a worldwide ministry. He wrote books and endorsed others – a Ravi endorsement was worth its weight in gold. He was a frequent guest on other apologists' radio programs and podcasts and was introduced in reverential tones and treated as an especially honored guest.

But Ravi was also a complete fraud. His academic credentials were greatly exaggerated. He had an extensive secret life involving sexual misconduct and abuse, replete with threats, payoffs and all the rest. It surfaced just before he died and was fully documented after his death. I corresponded with the attorney who first exposed the tip of the iceberg and watched agog as it all unfolded. Ravi had fooled his family, his closest associates in his ministry, all those who treated him as "the most godly man in the world" and, of course, his legions of devoted followers. Nonbelievers now had one more reason to laugh and say, "There ya go. Just another fraud. It’s all phony."

Ravi's ministry changed its name and pretty much collapsed. His books were pulled, his ministry credentials revoked. Christian authors removed his endorsements from their books. Those who had treated him with reverence now pretended they'd never heard of him. His devoted followers were crushed. It was about as huge and startling a fall as any Christian leader has ever suffered.

The typical Christian response was and is that Ravi's fall is just another reminder that we're all fallible and imperfect humans, subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Well, yes, it is certainly that. After an appropriate period of hand-wringing, the Ravi scandal was tucked away in the little box wihere such scandals are kept while "Christianity, Inc." got on with its business.

When I tried to raise larger concerns, on forums and elsewhere, the response was always, "No, this just shows we're all subject to temptation and sin, yada yada. Nothing else to see here, move along please."

The larger concern I attempted to raise was, "Where was the Holy Spirit in all this?" Ravi was surrounded by believers, seemingly none of whom was blessed with even an ounce of discernment. His wife and daughter were clueless. His ministry staff was clueless. All the Christian leaders who associated with him, sought his endorsements and treated him with reverence were clueless.

The Holy Spirit was seemingly so weak and ineffectual that Ravi's family was devastated, his ministry was destroyed, all the good he had done was undone, his devoted followers were crushed, and nonbelievers were handed yet more ammunition on a golden platter. We prattle about how God did this and that and the Holy Spirit did this and that in our lives, but the Holy Spirit seems to have been completely missing in action when it came to Ravi. Someone couldn't have been blessed with enough discernment to step in before this caused all the damage it did???

I raised this directly with a couple of prominent apologists who had been among Ravi's most worshipful supporters. Does it trouble you that you were completely duped, that you were allowed to mislead others, that you lacked even a modicum of discernment? Forget Ravi and his foibles - what does this say about the Holy Spirit in your own life? What does it say about the Holy Spirit in general? Where's the beef?

I received no response.

It was and is enough to make me wonder, "Is there any reality to this?" Are we perhaps pretending to believe things that simply Aren't True? Is it possible that if there is any reality to Christianity, this reality is far from what we pretend it is? Is all the hoopla perhaps why "Christianity" seems so far from anything Jesus could have been talking about or possibly had in mind?

I don't have the answers, but I do find myself increasingly moving in the direction of a less dogmatic theism in which I more genuinely believe and away from what this brand of Christianity requires me to pretend to believe. Your mileage may vary.
Well at least you are taking the first steps in the right direction. Most modern churches now are really just Christ sellers rather than disciple makers.

What you do is put aside all you have been taught before and get a good translation, I recommend the King James Version as it is definitely tried and tested. Start to study it at face value. It is people of the past passing on to us what they understood. Take them at their word. Once you start to get your theology right expect to recieve the anointing of the Holy Spirit and expect to start to see the gifts of the spirit manifest in your life.
 
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