Imagine a World with no Christians!

[James Macbeth]

The funny thing is that the Catholic Church claims to establish its belief in Purgatory based upon what is written in 2 Maccabees 12:45,46 -- an apocryphal book -- where nothing is said about Purgatory, but only Jews mistakenly praying for the dead (since nothing in the OT alludes to praying for the dead).

And because he [Judas Maccabeus] considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (Douay-Rheims Bible)

Judas Maccabeus -- like many Jews - mistakenly believed that those who died without Christ still had "great grace laid up for them", based upon their "godliness". Therefore he recommended prayers for the dead "that they may be loosed from their sins". So on one hand they were presumably godly (therefore under grace), and on the other hand they needed to be freed from the penalty for their sins. This in itself should have been a red flag. As we can see, this is contradictory, yet the Catholic Church had no problem taking this passage and concocting a whole "Christian" doctrine out of the words of an unbelieving Jew. Then adding the false teaching about indulgences, so that Purgatory became a "cash cow".

Yes the Catholic church abused the poor and ignorant.

That's why God loosed the anarchy of Protestants to punish the Roman church and set about change.

The Latin church became better for it.

But the Apostles taught Purgatory.

So do you not believe in oral traditions?

If no.

How did the Jews pass on the Torah?

Whether in Spain, Russia, Israel, Etc.

They all kept the oral traditions alive and the same.

Proof the possibility of keeping an oral tradition alive and well.

 

[Dropship]

The idea of purgatory is a satan-inspired joke and I bet he's chuckling to think he's suckered so many into thinking hell is fitted with a swing door and that they'll be let out after serving their time..

 

[James Macbeth]

The idea of purgatory is a satan-inspired joke and I bet he's chuckling to think he's suckered so many into thinking hell is fitted with a swing door and that they'll be let out after serving their time..

How will Jesus Baptized us with fire?

What is the threshingfloor?

Matthew 3:11-12
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit & fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshingfloor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

 

[Dropship]

How will Jesus Baptized us with fire?

What is the threshingfloor?

Matthew 3:11-12
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit & fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshingfloor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

This planet could be the threshing floor..

 

[James Macbeth]

This planet could be the threshing floor..

Key word could.

Meaning maybe not.

 

[Dropship]

Key word could.
Meaning maybe not.

I'm not sure what your stance is on the purgatory thing, are you saying that people can go through life being nasty in the belief that if they go to hell they'll later be let out to go to heaven?

 

[James Macbeth]

I'm not sure what your stance is on the purgatory thing, are you saying that people can go through life being nasty in the belief that if they go to hell they'll later be let out to go to heaven?

We are talking about the Rapture.

I hold to the Catholic version.

Those asleep in Christ are in Purgatory.

And we have those that were slain for the Gospel with Christ already. (Rev. 6:9)

Then the Trumpet sounds and those asleep in Christ shall rise first, and be caught with them in Heaven with a new incorruptible body.

After, those still alive will be changed, in a blink of an eye, and will be caught up with them in the clouds.

But not all will be changed.

Those in mortal Sin, will not be Raptured.

Instead as punishment, they will have to go through the Apocalypse, that will be their Purgatory.

And when Christ returns to defeat the Anti-christ, the Christians who persevered shall be rewarded with a new body.

This is the Catholic version of the Rapture.

 

[Timtofly]

Coming from the guy who says father Abraham is not a Jew..

Right, because Abraham was a son of Judah, who was a son of Israel. Gotcha.

You speak of a different Abraham other than the one mentioned in Hebrews 11.

That Abraham was a Hebrew.

How will Jesus Baptized us with fire?

What is the threshingfloor?

Matthew 3:11-12
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit & fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshingfloor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

That is while we are still alive on earth. Too late to do or change anything once we are dead. We are only rewarded for the works done in this body.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

All will give an account, and only what is done in this adamic body. There is no "make up" period, after life.

 

[James Macbeth]

Right, because Abraham was a son of Judah, who was a son of Israel. Gotcha.

You speak of a different Abraham other than the one mentioned in Hebrews 11.

That Abraham was a Hebrew.

 

[Dropship]

I'm still not sure I understand. Will people like Hitler and other tyrants go to heaven after spending some time being purged in hell?
Won't hell eventually become empty if all nasty people have been let out?

 

[James Macbeth]

Thanks but I'm still not sure I understand. Are you saying that people like Hitler and other tyrants will go to heaven after spending some time being purged in hell?
Won't hell eventually become empty if all nasty people have been let out?

Who said Hitler?

Who said Hell?

Those asleep in Christ are in Purgatory.

Many are in Hell now, forever, including Popes.

Those asleep in Christ were good Christians, but died with venial Sins.

Purgatory is a nightmare, where the soul has to overcome whatever was ensnaring them in their life.

 

[Dropship]

Who said Hitler?
Those asleep in Christ are in Purgatory...
Those asleep in Christ were good Christians, but died with venial Sins...
Purgatory is a nightmare, where the soul has to overcome whatever was ensnaring them in their life.

In exactly which verses did Jesus himself say stuff about "purgatory" and "rapture"?

 

[James Macbeth]

In exactly which verses did Jesus himself say stuff about "purgatory" and "rapture"?

It's implied.

Just like the holy Trinity.

And like the doctrine of the holy Trinity, poor souls reject it, because the word Trinity does not appear in the holy Scriptures.

They call themselves Nontrinitarianism, or Oneness Christology, etc.

 

[Dropship]

It's implied.
Just like the holy Trinity.
And like the doctrine of the holy Trinity, poor souls reject it, because the word Trinity does not appear in the holy Scriptures.
They call themselves Nontrinitarianism, or Oneness Christology, etc.

To me, the "Trinity" is just a play on words cooked up by catholicism - The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, so why do people make such a fuss about it?
Do those who believe it go to heaven, and those who don't believe it go to hell?

 

[James Macbeth]

To me, the "Trinity" is just a play on words cooked up by catholicism - The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, so why do people make such a fuss about it?
Do those who believe it go to heaven, and those who don't believe it go to hell?

Good point.

But Jesus left us with Apostles.

The Apostles left us with churches.

Christians are not anarchists, we belong to a church, which churches come together as the Church.

And the doctrine of the holy Trinity was taught to us by our elders.

So we continue in this tradition, generation after generation.

If one rejects the elders that came before, and rebuilds from scratch, the building might not be that safe.

Better safe than sorry.

 

[covenantee]

What?

Are you brain washed?

The hierarchy in the Catholic church got involved with politics, there are Popes & Bishops burning in Hell, because of that.

But to put Luther on a petal stool...yikes.

He took money from Nobles & sold out the German peasants, akin to the Catholics of his time, business as usual.

As one can plainly see, the back ring around his neck, if you zoom in.

50 million.

Homicides.

The most grievous of sins.

Perpetrated and perpetuated by your apostate "church".

Tell us about brainwashing.

 

[James Macbeth]

50 million.

Homicides.

The most grievous of sins.

Perpetrated and perpetuated by your apostate "church".

Tell us about brainwashing.

An estimated total of 70–85 million people perished, or about 3% of the 2.3 billion (est.) people on Earth in 1940. Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine.

Are you going to blame all Germans & Japanese for this?

You poor soul.

 

[covenantee]

An estimated total of 70–85 million people perished, or about 3% of the 2.3 billion (est.) people on Earth in 1940. Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine.

Are you going to blame all Germans & Japanese for this?

You poor soul.

Blame their leadership.

Similarly, blame the leadership of the apostate church.

The apostate popes and their minions.

 

[James Macbeth]

Blame their leadership.

Blame the leadership of the apostate church.

The apostate popes and their minions.

Ok.

 

[James Macbeth]

Right, because Abraham was a son of Judah, who was a son of Israel. Gotcha.

You speak of a different Abraham other than the one mentioned in Hebrews 11.

That Abraham was a Hebrew.



That is while we are still alive on earth. Too late to do or change anything once we are dead. We are only rewarded for the works done in this body.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

All will give an account, and only what is done in this adamic body. There is no "make up" period, after life.

Yes, you are right.

In Purgatory the soul is separated from the body.

Those asleep in Christ are in a type of dream world, but it's a nightmare, and they will rise again at the sound of the Trumpet.

They are there because of some Sin in their life, ensnared them, and they died in venial Sin.

Jesus puts their soul in Purgatory, so that they over come whatever Sin they had.

Some have been waiting for a long time others less.

These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' "But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."...

— Matthew 20:1–16,