Imagine a World with no Christians!

[James Macbeth]

No, it's proof that even the most well established protestant institutions isn't immune to apostasy, and that even it's most influential members can turn it to be traitors...aka Cardinal Henry Newman. It was he, and the liberals and Catholic intruders in the universities particularly Oxford, that started the rot. That did not prove the validity of Catholic teachings any more than a dropped pass proves the validity of a better coached opposition.

Ok well, I don't expect Christians from other churches to believe the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, word for word.

But to deny something similar to Purgatory, goes against,
what Christians have always been taught,
the obvious references in Scripture,
the fact that Jews hold something similar both now & before the time our our Lord,
many Church fathers,
every ancient Church.

And let's not forget Martin Luther capitulated within his own lifetime with certain aspects of Purgatory.

Because the people kept believing in it, no matter what the hierarchy said, as we can now see in England, albeit hundreds of years later.

Apostasy?

What injury occurs when someone believes in Purgatory?

Which commandment does it break?

 

[James Macbeth]

So you agree that none of his theses were about politics.



Credible evidence that Luther's actions ran counter to his theses?



Credible evidence?

On the night before his death, Martin Luther let himself be overcome by his habitual intemperance and in such excess that we were obliged to take him, completely drunk, and place him in his bed.
Then, we retired to our bedroom, without sensing anything unpleasant!
The next morning, we went back to our lord to help him get dressed, as usual.
Then – oh, what a pain! – we saw our master Martin hanging from the bed and strangled miserably!
His mouth was crooked, the right part of his face was black, his neck was red and deformed.

Dr. De Coster, who examined Luther, explained that the deceased’s mouth was crooked with the face black and the neck red and deformed.

This is his death painting, as you can see, his neck, the way it was described by his servant and Dr. What a sad end.

 

[Brakelite]

What injury occurs when someone believes in Purgatory?

Apostasy doesn't occur on the back of just one doctrine. It comes with capitulation and surrender to a new master. The acceptance and teaching of purgatory was one symptom among many whereby the Catholic Church apostatized from the truth of God to the lies, superstitions, and traditions inspired by Satan through a myriad off pagan roots, principally sun worship.
What harm specifically does a belief in Purgatory accomplish? A false assurance that even though one may be a practicing liar, thief, adulterer, glutton, drunkard, drug addict, Sabbath breaker, even idolator, one may eventually leave there and have eternal life in heaven. It destroys the work of Christ on the cross, and requires sinners to pay what the church purports, wrongfully, to be the price of their own redemption.

 

[covenantee]

On the night before his death, Martin Luther let himself be overcome by his habitual intemperance and in such excess that we were obliged to take him, completely drunk, and place him in his bed.
Then, we retired to our bedroom, without sensing anything unpleasant!
The next morning, we went back to our lord to help him get dressed, as usual.
Then – oh, what a pain! – we saw our master Martin hanging from the bed and strangled miserably!
His mouth was crooked, the right part of his face was black, his neck was red and deformed.

Dr. De Coster, who examined Luther, explained that the deceased’s mouth was crooked with the face black and the neck red and deformed.

This is his death painting, as you can see, his neck, the way it was described by his servant and Dr. What a sad end.
View attachment 23149

Martin Luther died in 1546.

The above report was filed by papist Franciscan Heinrich Sedulius in 1606.

Why did it take him 60 years to contrive his tale?

 

[Timtofly]

Thus this is proof that it came from the Apostles themselves.

No it is proof it came from some human around 1200. There is no record prior to this in history.

Total poppycock...

The whole 12th chapter our Lord is talking about his second coming, then he randomly inserts something about their Court's, and then resumes talking about this second coming in the beginning of the 13th chapter.

Hopefully the seeds of truth sprout within you.
With God will all things are possible.

"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite."

This is all about people alive on earth living on earth and experiencing life on earth, even a system of Law.

 

[James Macbeth]

Apostasy doesn't occur on the back of just one doctrine. It comes with capitulation and surrender to a new master. The acceptance and teaching of purgatory was one symptom among many whereby the Catholic Church apostatized from the truth of God to the lies, superstitions, and traditions inspired by Satan through a myriad off pagan roots, principally sun worship.
What harm specifically does a belief in Purgatory accomplish? A false assurance that even though one may be a practicing liar, thief, adulterer, glutton, drunkard, drug addict, Sabbath breaker, even idolator, one may eventually leave there and have eternal life in heaven. It destroys the work of Christ on the cross, and requires sinners to pay what the church purports, wrongfully, to be the price of their own redemption.

This is where you are malformed my friend.

The dead in Christ are in Purgatory.

Where else would they be?

Why are they not in Heaven, like the souls under the Altar (Rev 6:9)? Or Saint Steven (2 Cor. 12:2)?

Jesus say in Luke 12:58
And when thou goest with thy plaintiff to the magistrate, whilst thou art in the road, endeavour to be set free from him; lest, perhaps, he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee: thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last penny.

Notice this passage is similar to the one given in Matthew 5:25, but there are differences.
In Matthew the word ὑπηρέτῃ means Minister(servant).
But in Luke the word πράκτορι means Exacter(tax collector).

And in Luke he makes this statement in a different context, hes talks about:
1st Be Ready for the Lord’s Coming,
2nd Not Peace, but Division
3rd Interpreting the Times,
4th Repent or Perish
5th The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

This alone should be enough, but there are far more passages in Scriptures, to prove that something akin to Purgatory is implied, much like the holy Trinity.

Remember it is our Lord JESUS who puts you into his prison till thou hast paid the uttermost penny.

 

[James Macbeth]

No it is proof it came from some human around 1200. There is no record prior to this in history.



"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time? Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite."

This is all about people alive on earth living on earth and experiencing life on earth, even a system of Law.

You just keep getting lower & lower...

And in Luke he makes this statement in a different context, hes talks about:
1st Be Ready for the Lord’s Coming,
2nd Not Peace, but Division
3rd Interpreting the Times,
4th Repent or Perish
5th The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

 

[Brakelite]

The dead in Christ are in Purgatory.

Where else would they be?

Dead. In their graves until the resurrection.

Remember it is our Lord JESUS who puts you into his prison till thou hast paid the uttermost penny.

And what is the price/wages of sin? Is it literal money we are talking about... Are you another Tetzel? Or is the price we pay for sin exactly what the scriptures declare it to be, and that price inescapable?
KJV Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And what is that prison? Same thing. Death. And there is no escape without the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God at the time of the resurrection. For those outside of Christ, the price to be paid is their own death... Calvary avails them nothing. That death is eternal. No hope. No resurrection. No life of any sort to look further to. Unending oblivion. This life and this life only holds the opportunity to find redemption in Christ and eternal life. There is no opportunity after death. There is no possibility of making decisions, experiencing discipline, learning truth, gaining a relationship with Christ, once dead. The dead know not anything.
KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

.

 

[Timtofly]

You just keep getting lower & lower...

And in Luke he makes this statement in a different context, hes talks about:
1st Be Ready for the Lord’s Coming,
2nd Not Peace, but Division
3rd Interpreting the Times,
4th Repent or Perish
5th The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

That was Luke. You obviously don't think that weather occurs on earth, only in the afterlife. Normally those on weed see reality as not being on earth at all. A 5th grade reading comprehension can figure out Luke 12 was about life on earth. Jesus was not talking in parables. He was talking about real life.

 

[James Macbeth]

Martin Luther died in 1546.

The above report was filed by papist Franciscan Heinrich Sedulius in 1606.

Why did it take him 60 years to contrive his tale?

If you zoom in on the painting you can see the black line around his neck where the rope was.

Luther had suicidal tendencies, as it can be corroborated in his own “Tischreden” (“Table Talk”), where one of his conversations with Pastor Güben Leonhard Beyer, in 1551 is documented:

“He told us that when he was a prisoner the devil had wickedly tormented him and that he had laughed heartily when he (Luther) took a knife in his hand, saying:” Go ahead! Kill yourself! “(…). This has happened to me very often, so much as to put a knife in my hand … and what evil thoughts came to mind in this way, so evil that I could no longer pray “.

Like I said a very sad end.

Luther was depressed, that 300,000 Peasants died because of him.

The revolt incorporated some principles & rhetoric from the emerging Protestant Reformation, through which the peasants sought influence & freedom. Radical Reformers & Anabaptists, most famously Thomas Müntzer, instigated & supported the revolt. In contrast, Martin Luther & other Magisterial Reformers condemned it and clearly sided with the nobles. In Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants, Luther condemned the violence as the devil's work and called for the nobles to put down the rebels like mad dogs.[3] The movement was also supported by Ulrich Zwingli, but the condemnation by Martin Luther contributed to the defeat of the war.

He died like Judas Iscariot...a betrayer.

 

[James Macbeth]

That was Luke. You obviously don't think that weather occurs on earth, only in the afterlife. Normally those on weed see reality as not being on earth at all. A 5th grade reading comprehension can figure out Luke 12 was about life on earth. Jesus was not talking in parables. He was talking about real life.

Wow.

You remind me of Nicodemus:
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” (John 3:4)

Also:
Then his Disciples asked him what this parable meant. He said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but to others I speak in parables, so that
'looking they may not perceive,
and listening they may not understand.'"
(Luke 8:9-10)

And from a Protestant friend:
The Anglican bishop of Montreal, Ashton Oxenden, suggests that Jesus constructed his parables based on his divine knowledge of how man can be taught:

This was a mode of teaching, which our blessed Lord seemed to take special delight in employing. And we may be quite sure, that as "He knew what was in man" better than we know, He would not have taught by Parables, if He had not felt that this was the kind of teaching best suited to our wants.

— Oxenden 1864, p. 1

 

[covenantee]

If you zoom in on the painting you can see the black line around his neck where the rope was.

Luther had suicidal tendencies, as it can be corroborated in his own “Tischreden” (“Table Talk”), where one of his conversations with Pastor Güben Leonhard Beyer, in 1551 is documented:

“He told us that when he was a prisoner the devil had wickedly tormented him and that he had laughed heartily when he (Luther) took a knife in his hand, saying:” Go ahead! Kill yourself! “(…). This has happened to me very often, so much as to put a knife in my hand … and what evil thoughts came to mind in this way, so evil that I could no longer pray “.

Like I said a very sad end.

Luther was depressed, that 300,000 Peasants died because of him.

The revolt incorporated some principles & rhetoric from the emerging Protestant Reformation, through which the peasants sought influence & freedom. Radical Reformers & Anabaptists, most famously Thomas Müntzer, instigated & supported the revolt. In contrast, Martin Luther & other Magisterial Reformers condemned it and clearly sided with the nobles. In Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants, Luther condemned the violence as the devil's work and called for the nobles to put down the rebels like mad dogs.[3] The movement was also supported by Ulrich Zwingli, but the condemnation by Martin Luther contributed to the defeat of the war.

He died like Judas Iscariot...a betrayer.

You didn't answer the question.

Why did it take Sedulius 60 years to contrive his tale?

Not to worry, I'll answer.

It was the era of the apostate papacy's counter-reformation, which was an orchestration of attempts to neutralize the spiritual success of the Reformation. It devised various deceptions to this end. Notable among them were the counterfeit dogmas of futurism and preterism, to counter the Reformation declaration of the apostate papacy as an antichrist.

The contrived tale of Luther's suicide was merely another counter-reformation deception.

Whatever Luther's human failings may have been, they pale into utter insignificance compared to his contributions to the reclamation of spiritual liberty within the true Church as a defender of the true faith.

There's also the issue of the death toll attributable to the apostasized papacy over its centuries of depravity and atrocity.

Conservatively, 50 million.

 

[Brakelite]

Luther was depressed, that 300,000 Peasants died because of him.

That's about as disingenuous as Catholics claiming protestants died because of the state.

 

[Timtofly]

Wow.

You remind me of Nicodemus:
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” (John 3:4)

Also:
Then his Disciples asked him what this parable meant. He said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but to others I speak in parables, so that
'looking they may not perceive,
and listening they may not understand.'"
(Luke 8:9-10)

And from a Protestant friend:
The Anglican bishop of Montreal, Ashton Oxenden, suggests that Jesus constructed his parables based on his divine knowledge of how man can be taught:

This was a mode of teaching, which our blessed Lord seemed to take special delight in employing. And we may be quite sure, that as "He knew what was in man" better than we know, He would not have taught by Parables, if He had not felt that this was the kind of teaching best suited to our wants.

— Oxenden 1864, p. 1

People who are high cannot stay on topic very long, but start general conversations off topic that leads to no where.

You certainly have figured out how to avoid admitting being wrong on your original point.

Obviously some things never change.

 

[James Macbeth]

Dead. In their graves until the resurrection.

And what is the price/wages of sin? Is it literal money we are talking about... Are you another Tetzel? Or is the price we pay for sin exactly what the scriptures declare it to be, and that price inescapable?
KJV Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And what is that prison? Same thing. Death. And there is no escape without the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God at the time of the resurrection. For those outside of Christ, the price to be paid is their own death... Calvary avails them nothing. That death is eternal. No hope. No resurrection. No life of any sort to look further to. Unending oblivion. This life and this life only holds the opportunity to find redemption in Christ and eternal life. There is no opportunity after death. There is no possibility of making decisions, experiencing discipline, learning truth, gaining a relationship with Christ, once dead. The dead know not anything.
KJV Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

.

You are confusing what Jesus did.
His death opened the gates of Heaven, he is the doorman!
He will weight out your good works.
He will admit you or reject you.
Yes he died for your sins, therefore belong to him.
There are Saint in Heaven now.
But in his infinite mercy he will Baptize you with FIRE!

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Also in 2 MACHABEES 12:42-45
And they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out.
The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen.
He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand coins of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering.
In doing this he acted very well honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous & foolish to pray for the dead.
But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy & pious thought.
Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

 

[James Macbeth]

People who are high cannot stay on topic very long, but start general conversations off topic that leads to no where.

You certainly have figured out how to avoid admitting being wrong on your original point.

Obviously some things never change.

Coming from the guy who says father Abraham is not a Jew..

 

[Brakelite]

You are confusing what Jesus did.
His death opened the gates of Heaven, he is the doorman!
He will weight out your good works.
He will admit you or reject you.
Yes he died for your sins, therefore belong to him.
There are Saint in Heaven now.
But in his infinite mercy he will Baptize you with FIRE!

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Also in 2 MACHABEES 12:42-45
And they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out.
The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen.
He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand coins of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering.
In doing this he acted very well honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous & foolish to pray for the dead.
But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy & pious thought.
Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

Yep, Tetzel reincarnated. No thanks.

 

[James Macbeth]

You didn't answer the question.

Why did it take Sedulius 60 years to contrive his tale?

Not to worry, I'll answer.

It was the era of the apostate papacy's counter-reformation, which was an orchestration of attempts to neutralize the spiritual success of the Reformation. It devised various deceptions to this end. Notable among them were the counterfeit dogmas of futurism and preterism, to counter the Reformation declaration of the apostate papacy as an antichrist.

The contrived tale of Luther's suicide was merely another counter-reformation deception.

Whatever Luther's human failings may have been, they pale into utter insignificance compared to his contributions to the reclamation of spiritual liberty within the true Church as a defender of the true faith.

There's also the issue of the death toll attributable to the apostasized papacy over its centuries of depravity and atrocity.

Conservatively, 50 million.

What?

Are you brain washed?

The hierarchy in the Catholic church got involved with politics, there are Popes & Bishops burning in Hell, because of that.

But to put Luther on a petal stool...yikes.

He took money from Nobles & sold out the German peasants, akin to the Catholics of his time, business as usual.

As one can plainly see, the back ring around his neck, if you zoom in.

 

[James Macbeth]

Yep, Tetzel reincarnated. No thanks.

Good luck with your new religion.

 

[Enoch111]

The acceptance and teaching of purgatory was one symptom among many whereby the Catholic Church apostatized from the truth of God to the lies...

The funny thing is that the Catholic Church claims to establish its belief in Purgatory based upon what is written in 2 Maccabees 12:45,46 -- an apocryphal book -- where nothing is said about Purgatory, but only Jews mistakenly praying for the dead (since nothing in the OT alludes to praying for the dead).

And because he [Judas Maccabeus] considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (Douay-Rheims Bible)

Judas Maccabeus -- like many Jews - mistakenly believed that those who died without Christ still had "great grace laid up for them", based upon their "godliness". Therefore he recommended prayers for the dead "that they may be loosed from their sins". So on one hand they were presumably godly (therefore under grace), and on the other hand they needed to be freed from the penalty for their sins. This in itself should have been a red flag. As we can see, this is contradictory, yet the Catholic Church had no problem taking this passage and concocting a whole "Christian" doctrine out of the words of an unbelieving Jew. Then adding the false teaching about indulgences, so that Purgatory became a "cash cow".