"In Christ" = Never ends.

[marks]

They like it because they think it's their safety net if they should ever fail and not live for the Lord. They won't readily admit that, but it becomes obvious that is what many of them are taking comfort in when you talk to them.

Pure projection. I read and study the Bible, and this is what it teaches.

Go ahead and tell us how bad we are, and how we just want to pretend we can sin. It's really helping your case!

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I've seen a lot of people who think that when they sin, it's almost like they have to get saved again.

It depends on if their sin was willful and defiant in a Christ rejecting kind of attitude, or if it was just part of the growing pains of the genuine believer.

Do something to "make it right" with God. "Restore fellowship", things like that.

That is required. Sin in the life of the genuine, God loving, God seeking, but weak believer cuts off manifest fellowship with the Holy Spirit. The more you become acquainted with and love the life giving felt presence of the Holy Spirit the quicker you will be to admit and renounce the sin you've committed to restore manifest fellowship with the Spirit.

Jesus did everything that was needed, not that only, but everything that Could Be done, on the cross, to remove our sins.

That's right. None of this has anything to do with us having any merit of righteous work to somehow atone for our sins. It's all about being in the grace of God through which that occurs (1 John 2:23-24).

In His death and resurrection we "live unto God". Are you thinking this is an "on-again-off-again" state?

Nope. You are either in a state of salvation, or a state of being unsaved. There is no going back and forth between the two.

We are alive unto God now, whatever else may be true in our lives, it doesn't change that passage.

Which passage? But it doesn't really matter. The point is, if the 'whatever else' that is true in your life is you are living in willful, unrepentant sin, you will NOT be saved on the day Christ returns. I don't know about all the details about once saved always saved and all that. I just know what is clear and plain. The person purposely living in sin who does not repent will not be saved when Jesus comes back. That's the undisputable truth that we need to focus on, not our once saved always saved arguments that don't change that fact.

 

[marks]

But at least you recognize the necessity for the believer to stop sinning.

The believer is the one who recognizes that they sin, and they've repented.

Your problem is you don't know WHY they are required for salvation.

Works for salvation. No. Salvation is by grace through faith, and not our works, so no one can boast. Salvation is entirely and purely a gift from God. Works ARE NOT the requirement to be saved. Trusting in Jesus, receiving Him. All who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. And no, not if you are make believing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That is required. Sin in the life of the genuine, God loving, God seeking, but weak believer cuts off manifest fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

This is why such an emphasis on Hebrews 13, He has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you. Do you believe this is true?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, you believing that working to stay saved.....

See, I told you, lol. You haven't heard a word I've said. You can't because you're literally incapable of being able to hear any other argument, right or wrong, than your own. The proof of that is you would not able to speak my argument back to me to show you actually have heard what I've said.

 

[marks]

See, I told you, lol. You haven't heard a word I've said. You can't because you're literally incapable of being able to hear any other argument, right or wrong, than your own. The proof of that is you would not able to speak my argument back to me to show you actually have heard what I've said.

I'm not convinced that you realize the implications of what you assert.

You state works a requirement for salvation. What is it that's not being understood?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The point is if the 'whatever else' that is true in your life is you are living in willful, unrepentant, Christ on the day he returns you will NOT be saved.

What you are doing here is pointing to behavior and mood as being more relevant than whether Christ lives in you.

You seek to deny that Christ lives in those who may have poor behavior and mood, but what are you really doing? You are putting grace and faith and regeneration on the back burner, with behavior and mood occupying all of your attention.

2 Peter 1:5-11
5) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8) For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11) For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Make your calling and election solid, unmoving.

All of these are things you are, qualities you possess, not things you do. The measure of the believer is not in what they do, but what they are.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What you are doing here is pointing to behavior and mood as being more relevant than whether Christ lives in you.

No. You're misunderstanding it. It's not a cut and dry works vs. no works issue, as if works are what earns salvation. It's a faith vs. no faith issue. Ultimately, no works in an unchanged life = no faith in Christ, even if the person is sure they really do have faith in Christ (they are deceived).

The person who has faith in Christ is spiritually fulfilling the 'sign' commands of circumcision and Sabbath Rest in their flesh (recall that circumcision and Sabbath keeping were the sign commands that showed you were in covenant with God). The person who is living in a rejection of Christ, the New Covenant, is not circumcised in the flesh in the putting off of the sinful deeds of the flesh and is not dwelling in Sabbath Rest from sin. They show by their life of willful sin that they are not circumcised in Christ and are not in Sabbath Rest from sin through Christ in salvation.

Your outward works are just the evidence of the existence or lack of saving faith in Christ. But you and Behold are only able to understand the necessity for works in salvation as those works literally earning you salvation. Begin to understand—works are necessary because works are the necessary and obligatory mark left by a genuine faith in Christ. You can't separate works from faith any more than you can separate being wet from swimming in a pool. The obvious analogy being if you aren't wet you aren't swimming in the pool, even if you are sure you are. Understand?

 

[marks]

Your outward works are just the evidence of the existence or lack of saving faith in Christ. But you and Behold are only able to understand the necessity for works in salvation as those works literally earning you salvation. Begin to understand—works are necessary because works are the necessary and obligatory mark left by a genuine faith in Christ.

The thing you need to understand . . . to use your manner of speech . . . is this. The true mark of salvation is the seal of the Holy Spirit.

OK. If someone isn't changed, then their not born again. Simply stated. Someone who is born again is a new creation. And they will be different.

It sounds like you want to put this big focus on "how different". The one who's not changed, the one who mouthed a prayer, isn't really going to care, are they? Preach the gospel. The Holy Spirit does the rest.

Why does it seem so much like you are pushing this towards the true child of God?

You look so much for works, James too! My works will justify me to you, but not to God, and not to myself. Where in the Bible are we taught to gauge our salvation by our works?

The fact of the matter is, so far as my understanding of the Bible, rebirth is not conditioned on our works, and rebirth, once received, does not end.

This is "first things".

The Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are the children of God. Do you have this testimony?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The thing you need to understand . . . to use your manner of speech . . . is this. The true mark of salvation is the seal of the Holy Spirit.

And the true mark of the seal of the Holy Spirit is YOUR BEHAVIOR. That's the part you don't believe. And I understand why. The church has been rationalizing unrepentant, unchanged lives as being saved lives for years now. It's a blatant, heretical misuse of Paul's Romans 6-8 teaching. The church doesn't have the courage to tell unrepentant 'Christians' that they will not be saved when Jesus comes back. They can't. They don't want to alienate them. They need them around to keep the busine$$ of the church going. And pastors can't pay off thousands of dollars of student loans if they keep running church members off with the truth. Jesus didn't do that. He purposely ran off insincere disciples.

 

[marks]

And the true mark of the seal of the Holy Spirit is YOUR BEHAVIOR.

You realize, right, that behavior can be all over the map. But does that mean you are no longer born again?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And the true mark of the seal of the Holy Spirit is YOUR BEHAVIOR. That's the part you don't believe. And I understand why.

This is only true for others. My behavior will only justify me to you. Not to God, and not to myself.

God already knows, and, like Paul wrote, I know nothing against myself, but in that I'm not justified, Jesus will judge when He comes.

Anyway, I get that you're not really talking about those who have been reborn, not the true Christians. But it sure sounds like you are.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And the true mark of the seal of the Holy Spirit is YOUR BEHAVIOR. That's the part you don't believe. And I understand why. The church has been rationalizing unrepentant, unchanged lives as being saved lives for years now. It's a blatant, heretical misuse of Paul's Romans 6-8 teaching. The church doesn't have the courage to tell unrepentant 'Christians' that they will not be saved when Jesus comes back. They can't. They don't want to alienate them. They need them around to keep the busine$$ of the church going. And pastors can't pay off thousands of dollars of student loans if they keep running church members off with the truth. Jesus didn't do that. He purposely ran off insincere disciples.

Romans 8 tells us that the Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are the children of God. Do you have this testimony?

Much love!

 

[marks]

works are necessary because works are the necessary and obligatory mark left by a genuine faith in Christ.

This is outward. Inward we see a much different story. The one who used to be fine with what they are doing now hates it. Though they may continue, for a time, for who knows, though they may continue, yet they are different inside. And as the Holy Spirit begins to work, you may not see it, and the person may not yet acknowledge it, but God is beginning to change them.

The point is, this is what repentance is about. You want to see repentance in the Christian. Repentance is how you become a Christian. To continue to seek repentance shows a lack of understanding of what the word means. But I can't blame anyone for that. This is something very consistently mis-taught.

The Hebrew for repent means to change your direction, but the Greek word metanoia is to have a new mind, literally the "after-mind", the result of exchanging your mind. So many continue to think of repenting in the NT the same as in the OT. As if we go back and forth between righteous and unrighteous depending on our works. That OT Law.

What remains is not continued repentance, rather, the renewing of your mind. This is to be trained, to learn to think the way of the mind of Christ, and no longer the mind of the flesh.

In the way you mean repentance, yes, should we as Christian sin, as quickly as we realize and come to our senses, stop! Of course. But in the way the Bible is written, we've repented and now we are to renew our minds.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And yet it appears to me that you are having those who were born of God, who are known by Him, that these will be judged according to their works to determine whether they are saved or not.

You can decide for yourself about the 'were born of God' part. I just know that in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus judges us according to what we have done. And we know from the rest of the Bible that Jesus is not using our works in that passage to see if we earned salvation. And as far as wondering if a truly born again person can become lost and end up being condemned at the judgment? I leave that for the individual person to decide. Because it doesn't matter. That doesn't change the fact that if get to the judgment without any works to validate you as having love for and faith in God you'll be condemned not saved. That truth is not vague or open to interpretation in the Bible. I wish Christians would see that and stop relying on the not as clear once saved always saved argument to comfort them in their unrepentant sin, if they are doing that.

It seems to me that your intent to to say to those who love God, and who are reborn, and who still struggle with sin because of the remaining legalism in their minds, that they really AREN'T reborn, that they really don't know God, and unless they can conquer their sin they never will.

No, that is not what I'm saying. This is about people in the church who are in willful, deliberate, unrepentant sin who aren't in a struggle but who are purposely engaging in it, for all the various reasons 'Christians' choose to do that. But which in all cases represents a rejection of faith in Christ, not an embracing and a clinging to the grace of God. If they were clinging to God's grace in salvation they'd be engaged in the epic struggle with sin, not purposely and willingly walking in it, which some think they can do and still be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works. Sorry, that's not what Jesus says. Ultimately, choosing to live in sin means you are in unbelief. Unbelievers don't get to enter into the kingdom when Jesus comes back.

Which simply reinforces that same legalism that is causing them so much trouble in the first place.

Is the demand for repentance in Revelation 2:16 legalism? No. It's only legalism if you view the necessity for works in salvation to mean works earn salvation. It's not legalism if you understand that purposeful and unrepentant sin is turning your back on Christ. That is unbelief. And you will be condemned at the resurrection for that refusal to believe in and trust in the blood of Christ and instead purposely live in sin without struggle or conscience.

Your mission is to convince the reborn that they aren't because you've judged their sin?

Is there something wrong with judging somebody as needing to be turned over to satan for the destruction of sin in their flesh? We've been talking about the passage in the Bible that talks about just such a judgment needing to be made so a sinner in the church at Corinth may be saved when Jesus comes back. I'll leave the matter of whether or not he was ever saved to begin with to your own wondering. The passage doesn't tell us either way. What it does tell us is he's going to be condemned at the resurrection for his flagrant, unrepentant sin unless that sin in his flesh is put to death.

 

[marks]

I wish Christians would see that and stop relying on the once saved always saved argument to comfort them in their unrepentant sin, if they are doing that.

I wish people who think they are Christians and aren't really would see that and stop relying on the premise of a once saved always saved argument having said some meaningless prayer or whatever to comfort them in their unrepentant sin, if they are doing that.

So, we're essentially on the same page.

Much love!

 

[Angelina]

I don't agree with the OSAS doctrine simply because it flies in the face of the "Parable of the Sower".
The Sower

 

[Behold]

See, I told you, lol. You haven't heard a word I've said. You can't because you're literally incapable of being able to hear any other argument, right or wrong, than your own. The proof of that is you would not able to speak my argument back to me to show you actually have heard what I've said.

Why would you think i would suddenly become a legalist, simply because you need this to happen?
Really?
Do you think im going to fall from Grace, and suddenly become a self saving Legalist based on your insipid and limp administration of self deceit?
Get real.
Its quite possible that ive been leading people out of self righteousness and into God's Righteousness longer then you've been alive.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why would you think i would suddenly become a legalist, simply because you need this to happen?
Really?
Do you think im going to fall from Grace, and suddenly become a self saving Legalist based on your insipid and limp administration of self deceit?
Get real.
Its quite possible that ive been leading people out of self righteousness and into God's Righteousness longer then you've been alive.

See, I told you haven't heard anything I've said, lol. I haven't said anything one way or the other about once saved always saved. You are the angry, hard headed, dogmatic, hobby horse riding Christian that all Christians and unbelievers can't stand.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You realize, right, that behavior can be all over the map. But does that mean you are no longer born again?

Much love!

1 John 3:7-8
let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8The one who practices sin is of the devil