So then essentially you are just casting a wide net to find those who haven't been reborn, but think they are?
Much love!
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Much love!
I'm not saying Faith + as your recipe for salvation, what I'm saying is that it is by faith in Christ rather than by developing some quality in ourselves that we have victory over sin, including being sins of ingratitude, and being unloving.
So I'm saying that your recipe of victory over sin when we being sufficiently appreciative of His forgiveness, and sufficiently loving for others, these are good, needed, but rather than being the means to overcome sin, they are themselves the overcoming of sin.
Absolutely! Do you notice, God only finds it necessary to tell us we are under no obligation to the flesh. It's as if He's saying, "You're free now!"
That obligation you speak of, I say it this way, we are to live our new man, not our old man. We are to think with the mind of the Spirit, not the mind of the flesh. Now we are according to the Spirit, and are no longer according to the flesh.
God knows those who are His, but people get many different ideas. I believe at issue is if a man has been born again, that as we trust in Jesus Christ God gives us new birth, and we become forever His children.
It's not about what happens in my head "remember this date" the man says; rather, did I by faith come to my Creator, did He fill me to make me one of His Own?
And then after that comes the new life, the walking in the works that He wants.
Much love!
I'm curious . . . do you see this sheep/goats judgment as a parable? I know many do. I see it as an event that will occur when Jesus returns at the end of this age, following the restoration of Israel to its promised land.
I'm pre-trib pre-mil essentially, but if you want to explore that I do differ from what you may expect in some ways. Mostly it's just that I hold really tight to the text. That includes dispensationism, and this is a terrific example.
Those who call this a parable will sometimes say, I'm not saying that you do, but they will sometimes say that this will be us being judged. And of course that would mean that works, and not faith, is the final determiner of whether you enter God's kingdom or face condemnation.
Is this how you see it?
I believe we already ARE in God's kingdom, and this is already decided by are having trusted in Christ, and received rebirth from God. This puts us into God's kingdom. We are hid with Christ in God.
And that this prophecy is of the time after Jesus returns, after the beast is defeated, after Israel is regathered, and after the gentile nations are brought before His throne. The same time prophesied by Joel, ch. 3.
They are judged according to whether they defied the beast and helped the Jews, or didn't help the Jews, in spite of God's word concerning His chosen.
But I truly fail to see why God would need to examine my works to determine whether I'm 'saved'. Doesn't He know His children? I don't understand why that wouldn't make sense to you.
Much love!
So, then, is it really your core mission in this to convince me, others, that having been born again, that if we have bad behavior, we may become spiritually dead again?
It seems you've got a lot of baggage on the phrase, once saved always saved.
Do you believe as I do that someone who is born of God will never again be "not born of God", and forever remains God's child, in glorious relationship with Him?
Much love!
The bible is not a secular court, Ferris.
The bible is a spiritual Light and Life giver.
Now, i realize that you are stuck in this verse, 1 Corin 5:5..... and are not actually trying to consider that you might be filtering your verse through the heresy that you've been taught : "you can lose your salvation", as your incorrectly understanding your verse.
See, its like this.... heresy is a stronghold that is devil devised and captures you in a net of flesh.
What the Devil does, is .. he uses self righteousness or pride or both, mixed with deceit, and works all this together in your mind to build a stronghold.
And he uses people, often, that we respect, to put his heresy inside you, which bypasses common sense, logic, and truth.
When a person believes they can lose their salvation, there are many parts that have played a role in CAUSING them to interpret verses, in a way that abuses the Cross.
Understand...., any theology that tries to contradict the power of Christ's Blood......by refusing to agree that this Power of redemption can't be overruled or stopped or set aside, once its has been APPLIED, = is the Devil's lie.
So, any and all teaching that states that the born again, by the blood of Jesus, ....that this can be undone by a person's thinking or behavior, is devil devised lies, and the person who is teaching these lies is influenced and led by the same.
No exceptions.
Now to your one verse that you wrongly have concluded, proves to you, that a Christ filled born again believer will end up in the Lake of Fire.
"That his Spirit may be saved"....
Ok here is why you have not understood this verse at all...
And let this be a help to you, in the future..
Its this....when you hit a single verse that seems to teach what you think this one is teaching... then you have to consider that, for this to be true it would have to agree with all of Paul's Doctrine. And this doesn't, at all.... as Paul does not teach that a person can be lost, who is born again. And the NT does not teach that you can be un-born again, as that is not possible.
So, when you read any verse that contradicts majority Doctrine, then what is usually the reason a person didn't understand it correctly.????
Well, that gets back to a person's self righteousness), and the devil....as he wants you to believe wrong, and i stated how he causes this, through self righteousness and pride.. and being lied to by people we think are real teachers, preachers, or similar.
So, why did you not understand your verse correctly, Ferris?
Its the same reason that most get confused by one verse.... So, =.its because you didnt keep reading more..thus, you never realized the context.... You didnt read the next 4 or 5 verse... so that you understood the context of your one verse that you twisted out of context.
See, the word of God interprets itself, and never contradicts itself......and God has set this up as "rightly dividing" it, through study and spiritual discernment. The word of God is spiritually discerned, only.
And the way you do that is to compare "scripture with scripture" to get the spiritual and literal context, or, what ends up happening is you get lost in a pretext, a false understanding, as you have.
Now lets think....
You have to think....
Salvation is not temporary, ferris. The Blood Atonement is not temporary, ferris. Eternal Life is not Temporary. Justification by Faith, that leads to being born again, once this happens, is not temporary.. ferris. Becoming "One with God and Christ" is not temporary. The finished work of Jesus on the Cross, is not Temporary.
SO, all this being applied to a person, by God, is not a temporary situation.
Understand? And until you do, you will be stuck in the heresy of "you can lose your salvation".
Listen...
"""""God who began Salvation, in all the born again, will Himself be FAITHFUL to COMPLETE IT""""".......is not a Temporary situation.
So, what does this all mean, ferris?
It means that when a heretic is teaching that you can lose your salvation, they... are not only disregarding all that TRUTH i just wrote, but he or she is literally spitting on it. = "enemy of the Cross".
Ok, finally,
all you had to do to understand your verse correctly, was keep reading past verse 5.
If you had kept reading, (= study)..... you would have read where Paul said....of this fornicating young man......
NOW Here is your answer.......
vs 10.... PAUL Describes this person as......."fornicators of >THIS WORLD<"..... so, that is your first BIG clue.....As Paul is defining this person as being = "OF THIS WORLD".
Well, the born again are not of this world, ferris...... we are translated from Darkness to Light. We have become born again into another place, ....= The Kingdom of God. We exist THERE......Literally.
The Born again, are "in this world but not OF This world".
Understand?
And Paul has stated that this fornicator is """ OF THIS WORLD".
Next.
Vs 12.. Paul said....'"to judge them that are WITHOUT". And here Paul is talking about those who are outside the Body of Christ, vs those that are "within". or Born again into the Body of Christ.
vs 13.....and WHO judges those who are OUTSIDE the body of Christ ???? ...= """but them that are without...= God judges"....
So, there is your answer to "turn over to Satan", and "so that the spirit shall be saved"..
A born again Christian, does not have to have their Spirit saved, later, because its already REDEEMED NOW by the BLood of JESUS>
Its ALREADY Saved, Ferris. = Born Again.
So, what is this Fornicator? He is someone who is not saved, yet.
So, this person, is not born again, yet.
He is "without"....>He is "outside the Body of Christ"... and He is going to be Judge by God unless he does what/??
......that is his current state, as of VERSE 5....... and this is not the state of a born again person, as Christ has been judged for them Already, on the Cross.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, it's not a parable. It's literal except for the use of the goat and sheep metaphors used to describe the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous.
Yes, it's clear that it happens "When the Son of Man comes in his glory". That's what the whole chapter is about—being ready for the return of Christ. And as far as Israel, aren't they already restored to the promised land? We know this is in preparation for the return of Christ.
I avoid the discussion. I just know Christ is going to return at the last trump. And whatever stages of the end-times I have to endure until he returns, so be it.
That is how I see it, with the exception that Jesus using our works as the evidence of our faith in no way is what MAKES us righteous before him. Our works during our lives on earth only reveal whether or not we possess the faith that all by itself makes one righteous. Even Paul said the faith that makes us righteous all by itself apart from works is the faith that expresses itself through love (Galatians 5:6). The 'expresses itself through love' part doesn't make anyone righteous. It's simply describes the quality of the faith that, all by itself, makes a person righteous before God. Without that quality, you show that you do not have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the merit of works. Very, very few people in the church seem to be able to understand what I just wrote. Even when you explain it to them.
I believe that too, except we are in the spiritual kingdom of God at this time. And for the obvious reason that we are not resurrected into our physical kingdom bodies yet. And I would change 'our having trusted in Christ' to 'our trusting in Christ'. All saved people, without exception, are presently believing. If you are not presently believing you are not presently saved.
It is the judgment just before the second death after the Millennial Reign and after the devil is cast into the lake of fire, and before the new heaven and earth—Revelation 20:11-13.
Oh, I don't know about all that, specifically. I just know it's THE Judgment of mankind.
I thought I had done a good job of explaining why he doesn't have to do it that way, but maybe why he has chosen to do it that way, nonetheless.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't describe it using that metaphor but, yes, I want those who have the potential to receive and believe the word of God to know they aren't saved if they are living in the mind set of the flesh. Paul says that person does not have the Spirit and do not belong to Christ. I'm just laboring in the field and building of God.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I'm not filtering it through "you can lose your salvation". As I said, the chapter doesn't say anything about that either way. I just know it says the willfully sinning, unrepentant person in the church who claims to be a Christian is not saved and has to be turned over to satan for the destruction of their fleshly deed in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. But there are lots of preachers and teachers who will tell you that's not true. They say a confession of faith that is not accompanied by a change of life saves too because salvation is not by works, not knowing that living in the old life is the sign that a person does not possess the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. Even Paul said the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that has the quality of being obedient to God in the command to love (Galatians 5:6).
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Even Paul, the primary revelatory teacher of 'righteousness by faith apart from the merit of works', says the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that works the obedience of love (Galatians 5:6). That's not a works gospel, but very few in the church know why it's not a works gospel and so believe that faith that doesn't obey God in the command to love others saves too. Which is in complete contradiction to these verses too.....
James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
1 John 3:10
Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Such faith that does not obey God in the command to love others is NOT the faith that makes a person saved apart from the merit of works. Ultimately, if your faith is dead, having no works, you do not have the faith that saves all by itself apart from works. See, what you teach is actually the heretical stronghold of the devil that catches people in a net of flesh. Dead faith is not the faith that saves all by itself apart from works.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I never made an argument that 1 Corinthians 5:5 shows us a born again person can lose his salvation. I have said over and over again that the chapter does not tell us that either way, and that it doesn't matter anyway. You just instantly assume I'm saying that, like most Christians do.
What I have been showing from 1 Corinthians 5 (and other verses) is the willfully sinning person in the church who claims to be a brother is not saved. And that it doesn't matter if he was ever saved to begin with or not. What matters is he is living in willful, unrepentant sin and so is not saved. Once saved always saved doesn't change that fact.
But the church misses this plain fact in scripture because it has been taught that a 'Christian' who claims he is saved can be a willful, unrepentant sinner and be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works. Ignoring the fact that this chapter and other verses tell us that the willful, unrepentant sinner is not saved. It doesn't matter if he was ever saved or not. Make up your own mind about that. What matters is his life shows he is not saved and is not ready to meet Christ when he comes back. But the church does not tell us that. Instead many churches give us false comfort by telling us that how you live means nothing just as long as you believed, and that you are saved even if you are living in willful, unrepentant, Christ rejecting, grace abusing sin.
That's the heretical gospel of license tickling the ears of the church to their destruction in this end time just before Christ returns. But like I say, it has it's purpose. Those who claim to be saved but who receive that lie and live that way are being deceived by that doctrine to expose them for the Christ rejecters they really are so they can be condemned at Christ's return and receive the just penalty of destruction for their rejection of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).
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Listen..
I can't speak for whatever "church" you think is the Church you are describing.
Is it the Catholic Church that teaches that you are born again by water according to their corrupted BIBLE?
The Holy Bible teaches that you are born again by the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic Bible teaches that you are born again OF Water.
Is that the """Church""" you are talking about, ferris?....as that one owns billions of people's minds and that one is the largest denomination.
Here is the thing...
If you are born again, you remain so, and that is the only PROOF that God accepted anyone and that is the only reason that God keeps anyone.
The born again, all go to heaven. All others go to Hell. John 3:36
See, God only accepts a person based on what God did on the Cross, as Christ's Sacrifice. John 3:16
So, there are no "works" YOU can do, that can match that CROSS, so, dont try that argument in public.
Therefore.... all self righteous arguments about..."works" and "abiding" and "fruit bearing",= to be saved or stay saved.... are created by deceived people who are ether not saved, or are saved, but are fallen from Grace.
And why is that? Because if you were not fallen from Grace, you would be able to recognize and understand Grace correctly, verses trying to argue in public that its a "license to sin".
See it?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You are the one who is deceived. You are only capable of thinking that works being required in the life of the saved person can only be understood as those works earning salvation.
Works are required in salvation because salvation changes a person into a new creation. No change into a new creation means no saving faith is present to cause that change. That person is unsaved. Your heretical gospel of license invented this fictitious person who is saved but who has an unchanged life with a mind set on the flesh (even though you now acknowledge that the willful, unrepentant sinner in 1 Corinthians 5 is an unsaved person, not a saved person living in an unchanged life).
The unchanged life of willful, unrepentant sin is the description of an unsaved person. No once saved always saved theology is going to change that fact for that person. Unless you can somehow prove it does. Even the original once saved always saved teaching developed in the 1500's said the unchanged 'Christian' was never really saved to begin with. But your heretical, unbiblical teaching says unchanged, unrepentant 'Christians' are saved too, and that false teaching has led countless people still in the mind set on the flesh to believe they are saved and ready to meet Jesus when the truth is they aren't really ready to meet him at all. Their unchanged, unrepentant lives of sin being the evidence of the fact that they are in unbelief and are not saved at all.
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So then you are addressing those who believe they have a living faith in God, who believe they are born again, and you want to show them that they are not if they have sin in their lives that they've never been able to stop?
Who put you on this mission to destroy people's faith?
Much love!
And yet it appears to me that you are having those who were born of God, who are known by Him, that these will be judged according to their works to determine whether they are saved or not.
It seems to me that your intent to to say to those who love God, and who are reborn, and who still struggle with sin because of the remaining legalism in their minds, that they really AREN'T reborn, that they really don't know God, and unless they can conquer their sin they never will.
Which simply reinforces that same legalism that is causing them so much trouble in the first place.
Your mission is to convince the reborn that they aren't because you've judged their sin?
This seems to be near the center of the discussion.
God knows those who are His. What proof do our works offer to God that He didn't already know when we first believed?
Much love!
Ferris Bueller,
In that moment after salvation . . . before one even takes that next breath . . . are they in fact saved?
Much love!
Actually i dont teach that works are to be avoided, if you are born again, as we are to "present our bodies a living sacrifice"...
What I teach is that heretics who teach that works are required to stay saved, are to be avoided, as they are informed and owned by the devil.
AS these people are "fallen from Grace" and they will harm you, if they can.... with their self righteous Cross rejecting Theology.
And as i told you before.. ferris
You are confusing "Discipleship" with "Salvation".
Understand that Discipleship follows Salvation, exactly as water baptism follows Salvation.
Neither are the actual salvation,...both FOLLOW, BEING SAVED.... both FOLLOW being BORN AGAIN.
We are enlisted into a Holy Lifestyle by being born again....... But we are not born again by works, nor are we kept saved by them.
So, for you to teach that "works are REQUIRED for Salvation", as you just did, is your own self-provided evidence of being fallen from Grace.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Almost. I'm addressing those who believe they have a living faith in God, who believe they are born again, and I want to show them that they are not if they don't care that they have willful, deliberate, flagrant, unrepentant sin in their lives. Especially if they think they can be that way and be saved because salvation is not by works.
You mean who put me on this mission to destroy people's false faith? The love of God in me—2 Corinthians 5:14, 2 Corinthians 5:20. I love the body of Christ. I love the truth. I love righteousness. I hate everything that is false and misleading and deceitful.
And what do you know about the faith in someone else? Maybe you can convince a weak brother that they are not really born again, when they are. What then?
People see their own problems, and may grind away at them for years, as people keep telling them they have to get better if they expect to be saved.
It's when we learn the message of the Gospel of a salvation which God gives to us entirely apart from our works that we can become free to consistently walk in the Spirit.
Much love!
marks said: ↑
Who put you on this mission to destroy people's faith?
Much love!
I think I went too far on that one, I'm sorry!
Much love!
Who put you on this mission to destroy people's faith?
Much love!
I think I went too far on that one, I'm sorry!
Much love!
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