In-depth Bible Study on Eternal Punishment

[MatthewG]

Continued from previous post #20

We could stop here . . . but we won't.

• There are a couple more concepts that must be addressed in this matter to help round out our understanding of after-life punishment that would be heaped out upon those who rejected Jesus and His apostles (in that day in age)
• There are two basic Greek words for the will of God - THELEMA and BOULEMA.
• Thelma is essentially defined as "God's gracious design and it is indicative of his desires. His desired will. In this word, we see connections to the Greek word These or God.
• The second word, Boulemea, is His deliberate design or His purposed will.
• Again, Thelema his desired will.
• Boulema his purposed will - what will not be altered.
• If we look at 1 Timothy 2:3-4 we will read

- "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to hbe saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth."

• The English word "Will" here is taken from Greek thelo (as in Thelma) He desires that all men to be saved.
• Now, if eternal punishment is a reality, God will not have His desires accomplished and all men will not be saved - in fact, only a few. This is the standard rationale of most (Arminian) Christians - " God is love and He desires all to be saved, but His Desires (due to the free will of man) will not be met."
• Does this response differ from your earlier view that God will have all his desires accomplished?
• Let's get a little more emphatic here.
• God to 2 Peter 3:9. There we read:

- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some mean count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

• Where it says that God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, are we talking Thelema again, "That he does not desire any should perish?"
• No. The greek word is Boulema - His purposes and expressed will shall be done!
• In other words, God will NOT allow any to perish ever!
• From these two passages, we see that it is both God's desire and His purpose that none should perish, but all should come to repentance and be saved.
• From these passages (and passages like these) we are confronted with a serious breach if intellectual, biblical, and spiritual integrity is not maintained.

• What is the breach?
• The teaching that a sovereign God, who knew and knows all things from the beginning to the end would fail to see His loving and good desires and purposes fulfilled through His foreknowledge of our freewill choices given to us by Him!
• This is an impossible contradiction.
• Calvinist (see Calvinism : For more - the-christian-anarchist-crookbook) meet it by saying this Sovereign God's desires and purposes are accomplished in that He has predestined some to burn in hell forever, ignoring the fact that He is love and mercy. But the Bible suggest otherwise.
• In and through this beautiful approach, God maintains LOVE, SOVEREIGNTY, A RESPECT for FREE WILL, and JUSTICE while having his pleasures and desires completely and fully met that none would perish.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #21

Another point to consider.

• In light of all we have talked about I find new meaning in the term "lost."
• In the Old Testament, all were lost as well went to Sheol, the covered place, which was separated from God. In the New Testament Jesus came to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" and gave Himself so they could escape end-time judgement which was going to fall on that generation and be saved from after-life purging - be saved.

Today the world is divided into those who have found and those who remain lost to the world.

• Seeing the redemptive work of our King through these respective views enables us to see those who have yet oto believe s lost due to a lack of faith and not due to sin in the sense of a numbered and categorized hierarchy of sin.
• This is important because we as believers start looking out at the world as "the Sinful" and the "unforgiven" and themselves as "the Worthy," it is easy to forget that our righteousness has come by His grace through Faith.
• If we are able to see the rest of the world as failing in faith (and therefore lost due to spiritual blindness) it enables us to retain a modicum of humility and gratitude fro Him who redeemed us and keeps us from looking down our noses at those who have yet (I emphasize YET) . . . to be found.
• In other words, if we see people as "lost" it merely means they are temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns them and in time they will be found.
• And here's the key - a Good shepherd would never abandon the search and return of those who are His.
• In Luke 15:4 Jesus said:

- "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layette it on his shoulder, rejoicing.And when he cometh home, he callers together his friends and neighbors, saying unto them, Rejoice with me for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons which need no repentance."

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #22,

• Let's dig deeper and talk about the terms lost, perish, and destroy as they are used in scripture.

- In Luke 13:3 Jesus says (KJV)" . . . except ye repent, you shall all likewise "perish."

- 2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." And James 4:12 says: - There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

• These words sound definite and complete, don't they? But all of these words come form the Greek word, apollumi. (Appolomee)
• Unfortunately, some have assigned meaning to this Greek term that is not consistently applied. For example, in my PowerBible software, it suggest that "apololamee" means to obliterate. In a sense it does because the better definitions mean "ruin" ,and "loss," but it does not mean total extinction.
• We can prove this through other passages of scripture. For example in the story of the Lost Sheep, Jesus tell, the Greek word for lost is apoloomai.
• In the story of the prodigal son the word is "apollomai," and in Luke 19:!0, where Jesus says

- "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost," the word is the same.

• It obviously does NOT mean totally destroyed or completely perished, but simply suffering loss.

Two more points.

• The first is Psalms
• When I read them I am able to hear the heart of God shining through.

Admittedly, I have come across a number of them that give me pause. For instance:

- Psalms 2:7-8 " I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten tee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thing inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth from thy possession."

- Psalms 22:27-28 "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the ORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the Kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations."

- Psalm 24:1 "The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world and they that dwell therein."

- Psalm 65:2 "O though that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come."

- Psalm 68:18 "The heavens are thing, the earth also is thing: as for the world and the fulness thereof, though hast founded them."

- Psalm 86:8-10 "Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works. All nations whom those hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things; thou art God alone."

• And of course,

- Isaiah 45:22-24 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is non else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."

• Didn't Paul say love never fails? If God is love, can He, will He, ever fail to bring about His goodwill and pleasure?
• Doesn't the Word say that Death will be swallowed up in victory?

Would this include the second death where only loss and purging occurs? I would suggest so. No death or any kind can escape the victory of Christ on the cross.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #23

Many people in response to all of this, will scream:

"But God is Just! God is Just!"

He certainly is. And because He is Just He sent His Son, a Son who not only saved all men, He is a Son before whom "every knee will bound and every tonite will confess."

Do you know what James, Jesus brother said about Mercy and Justice?

He says, "Mercy Triumphs over Judgment."

Let's wrap all this up and hear from some of the mean known as Early Church Fathers - men who believed and were around after the last living apostle died his physical death. Admittedly, being men, they made some mistakes. But they were willing to voice their opinions on the topic and were not castigated as heretical when they did.

I would suggest, prior to reading them, that the doctrine of endless eternal punishment was a rarity among the believers in the earliest centuries of the post-apostolic church and it was the Roman and Greek traditions that helped bring such ideas to the church over time.

In fact, it was Augustine (in 354-430 AD) who was one of the first to truly popularize the teaching of eternal punishment.

Proving the teaching was still around in the Church when Augustine was alive let's first hear a quote from him which says:

"And now I see I must have a gentle disputation with certain tender hearts of our own religion, who are unwilling to believe that everlasting punishment will be inflicted, either on all those whom the just Judge shall condemn to the pains of hell or even on some of them."

Augustine aside, the earliest church fathers tended to believe that the torments were purposeful, and aimed at purging and cleanings rather than cruelty and suffering for suffering's sake.

These thoughts all fell under what was known as the "restitution of all things" (which interestingly enough, Paul refers to frequently but never mentions referring to all things original prior to the fall but he does not mention hell.) It wasn't until 533 AD that an official attempt was made to rid the world of the "restitution of all things idea." By this time most of the men (who dominated Christianity) couldn't even read Greek. Anyway . . .



Irenaeus (130AD-200AD), who wrote intimately of Polycarp and who was a close friend of the Apostle John, revealed through his writings a belief in "an ultimate reconciliation of all things back to God."



Clement of Alexandria (185 AD - 254 AD) wrote:

"The Lord is a propitiation not for our sins only, that is of the Faithful, but also for the whole world. Therefore He indeed saves all universally; but some as converted by punishments others by voluntary submission, thus obtaining honor and dignity, that "to him every knee will bow, of things in heaven, of things in earth, and things under the earth, that is to say, angels, and men, and souls who departed this life before his coming into the world."



Origen (185 AD - 254 AD) wrote:

"He that despise the purification of the Word of God, the doctrine of the Gospel only keeps himself for a dreadful and penal purifications afterwards; that so the fire of hell may purge him in torments whom neither apostolical doctrine nor dospel preaching has cleaned, according to that which is written of being "purified by fire." But how long this purification which is wrought out by the penal fire shall endure, or for how many periods of ages it shall torment sinners, He only knows whom all judgement is committed by the Father."



We could write on and on, adding a dozen of more to the list, but let's conclude this whole thing with the words of Luther, that if uttered today, would be certainly cause many scream, "Heresy!" This was what the Father of the reformation said in a letter written in 1522:

"God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy, there may be opportunity to win it is in the future."

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #24

So in conclusion of our look at afterlife punishment that was apparent during the days and age of Christ through to the year 70AD, the overall message and their application to the people of that day and age goes something like this:

Because of Adam and his sin, al the world fell into a fallen state, a state where they were physically and spiritually separated from the direct presence of God.

All people prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, when they experienced physical death, went to sheol, a covered place, a place still separated from God, which consisted of either a prison (the dark place of torments) or to paddies (called Abraham's bosom).

When Jesus came, as the Second Adam, His life, death, and resurrection reconciled those who were in the paradise part of Sheol to God and He took them with Him into the presence of God after His Resurrection.


Those who were in the prison part of Sheol remained there.

Jesus promised to return to earth within a generation (forty years) and to bring with Him judgment and reward.

He came as promised.

With His return, everything in scripture was materially fulfilled.


According to the contents of Revelation (whichh was written to the Seven Churches of Asia Minor then), this would include the fact that hell gave up its dead, and all the inhabitants stood before the Great White Throne judgment and were judged.


Those whose names were not found int he Lamb's Book of Life were sent to the Lake of Fire, which was in the presence of the Lamb and his angels, and experienced what is called, "the second death."


This second death was not eternal but was for an age (aion) or period of time. What was dying or experiencing the second death in the Lake of fire? all things that were not of God - they were being purged or rubbed away in the fire and brimstone of God's light and love.

All these things, detailed in Revelation and in other parts of scripture wrapped up that biblical age where Jesus has had the total victory over all things and we are now left with the last, or third scenario of after-life punishment.

To the Next post: #27

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sheol may have been turned into hell, same as with hades by the KJV but the bulk of translators don’t.

Hell and Hades are not the same place. Hades is the place of the dead . Hell is the lake of fire, aka, the second death. The KJV is notoriously known among scholars for not being a good translation and causes a lot of confusion.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere but this is one of the best books on hell that I’ve read. It’s definitely in the top 10. It’s Edward Fudge’s “ The Fire that Consumes “.

There is also a fantastic podcast hosted primarily by the budding Old Testament scholar , Chris Date , called “ Rethinking Hell “ this is to their website.
Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism)

The podcast has several hundred hours of discussions and debates on this.

Barnyfife introduced me to Edward Fudge many months ago. I watched a video by him. Explained a lot!

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post :#25

The Third Scenario of After-life Punishment

Post 70 AD to the present

As a means to truly understand the Third Scenario which applies to us today living in the modern age of Christianity, let's begin by asking ourselves:

"Is God's will always done?"

Scripture says that it is. WE might then ask ourselves:

"Is God's will good or is it evil?"


If He is a good God whom we can trust, then we would have to say that His will is always good. Always good.


Then we might ask, "Well then, what is His will relative to the salvation of the human race?"

That is an interesting question because the answer comes out in different ways depending on an individuals religious perspective.




To ardent five-point Calvinsits, His will translates to an almost wholesale indifference to certain individuals that He has literally created for hell and is wholly devoted to others whom He has chosen for eternal life.



Part of the problem is that bible does seem to support both . . .

I would suggest we answer this query, with with a number of passage employed by both sides of the coin. Let's consider some passages. What does it mean when we read in:


2 Peter 3:9: " The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness: but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that nay should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

- Isaiah 45:23-24 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."

- 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation of our sins: and not only ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

- 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have al men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

- 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.


Check out Isaiah 46:8-11 where God says : "Remember this, and show yourselves men: bring it against to mind, O yet transgressors. Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is non else; I am God and there is none like me declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: calling a ravenous bird from he east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yet, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have proposed it, I will also do it."

Next, Let's go back and ask ourselves, "Is God just?"


As we admitted, if He is to be considered a God that can be trusted, He must be completely just. And then, if or since He is just, we ask the fourth question "Is there a hell and/or place of punishment?" For this ewho reject His will in this day and age?



As a means to answer this, we ought to go back to the Book of Hebrews. Here in chapter 13:1, in comparing Jesus to angels, the writer asks:


"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thing enemies thy footstool?"

to the next post: #29

 

[Robert Gwin]

Within Christianity, there are several scenarios or perspectives from where "after-life punishment" must be considered.

- First, from the Old Testament perspective.

- Second, from the New Testament to 70AD perspective, and

- Third, after 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem

-​

In order to grasp the third scenario (which applies to us in our day), the first and second must be understood. Let's look at each of them respectively.

The First Scenario of Afterlife-Punishment

• From everything the Old Testament seems to suggest, the afterlife destination for every departed soul was sheol, known as "the covered place."
• Sheol (which was later translated hell by the King James translators) consisted of a dark holding cell (so to speak) which was also known as a prison and a place likened unto a beautiful place of rest, called paradise.
• While the two different names tend to describe very different environments, we must note that they were both part, or under the roof, of the covered place. In other words, sheol (the covered place) had two compartments - prison and paradise - but both places were separated from the presence of God.
• Based on the parabolic teachings of Jesus there was an impassable chasm or gulf between prison and paradise (also called Abraham's bosom) which was separated them from each other.
• It is of note that all Old Testament Characters - from Cain to Abraham, and from Moses to Isaiah - went to Sheol when they died. Some (the faithless) went to prison and others (the faithful went to paradise) But all remained separated from God until Christ's Antoine work.

Eternal life or death is what God offers, your choice Matthew.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #27

Read that passage carefully again. Have you ever considered what it is telling us? First of all, has God ever said to any of the angels to sit at his right hand? No, never. The writer of Hebrews took this passage from Psalms 110:1 which was a Psalm that is repeatedly quoted in the New Testament and refers to the Messiah. When Jesus was on earth He applied this passage to Himself (in Matthew 22:43,44). Peter applied it to Him too (in Acts 2:34,35).

Notice something here. The passage says that Christ will sit "at the right hand of that Father UNTIL . . . until He makes all His enemies his footstool. "What does this mean? Have you ever considered the fact that Christ will be at the side of the Father UNTIL A certain period of time?

A footstool is what we put under our feet when we sit on a chair, and so the phrase here pictures that His enemies are entirely subdued. Entirely . . . subdued. Could it mean, when "Every one bows and every tongue confessed?" Perhaps.



I am going to lead you into some amazing imagery now - one I challenge all of you to prayerfully consider and studiously pursue. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul touches on the topic of "all things being subjected" with a little more depth and says at verse 23. Read these verses carefully speaking of the resurrection Paul says:

23 "But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Chris's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hate put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hate put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

(LISTEN)
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself before subject unto him that put al things under him that God may be all in all.

We know that from scripture that hell is a biblical reality. We know people went there and we know it is described as a place of this was all covered in the previous sections.

But we also know from scripture (1 Timothy 2:4), that speaking of GOd, Paul said

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."



We know from scripture that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, and we know from scripture that God does some amazing things to bring about as many as possible to saving truths.



Finally, we know that God elected the nation of Israel, as a people, to do certain tasks - to bring forth the Law, the scripture, and the Messiah - among other things.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #29

And when they (the nation of Israel) were "in the game" they kind of thought of themselves as "all that," that everything sort of began and ended with them," right?


They were reticent and surprised that the "great unwashed" Gentiles would be accepted by God, right? And they resisted the notion. They still resist the notion today. But contrary to their ideas, the Lord did open the gates to all, didn't He? It was at the conversion of Cornelius. And from this Christ has gathered unto himself a bride (or a church_ that the gates of hell would not prevail against and this bride was elected to do certain things to help bring about God's ultimate will too.


Is it possible, that just as the Jews though that they were "all that" and that no others were allowed into the Kingdom that we, as the body of Christ, could be making the same mistake relative to the rest of the world today?



Is it possible that those who goto the lake of fire, if the Lake is still in operation of purging souls, that once they have bowed and confessed that Jesus is Lord (by the Holy Spirit), will too, come forth to fruition God's will that all men be saved and that none would be perish?



Why does Jesus remain at the right hand of God only until all His enemies have been placed under His feet? Who are His enemies? And where are they located? Are they in hell? On Earth? In the Lake of Fire? And exactly how does God make them His footstool? Are they in a big pile of souls serving as a pillow under his feet? What does this look like? What does God look like in this picture? What is the imagery suggesting?

We then wondered out-loud "to what purpose" or "what is the end result" is His enemies being placed under his feet?

to the next post: #33

 

[ChristisGod]

Continued from post #29

And when they (the nation of Israel) were "in the game" they kind of thought of themselves as "all that," that everything sort of began and ended with them," right?


They were reticent and surprised that the "great unwashed" Gentiles would be accepted by God, right? And they resisted the notion. They still resist the notion today. But contrary to their ideas, the Lord did open the gates to all, didn't He? It was at the conversion of Cornelius. And from this Christ has gathered unto himself a bride (or a church_ that the gates of hell would not prevail against and this bride was elected to do certain things to help bring about God's ultimate will too.


Is it possible, that just as the Jews though that they were "all that" and that no others were allowed into the Kingdom that we, as the body of Christ, could be making the same mistake relative to the rest of the world today?



Is it possible that those who goto the lake of fire, if the Lake is still in operation of purging souls, that once they have bowed and confessed that Jesus is Lord (by the Holy Spirit), will too, come forth to fruition God's will that all men be saved and that none would be perish?



Why does Jesus remain at the right hand of God only until all His enemies have been placed under His feet? Who are His enemies? And where are they located? Are they in hell? On Earth? In the Lake of Fire? And exactly how does God make them His footstool? Are they in a big pile of souls serving as a pillow under his feet? What does this look like? What does God look like in this picture? What is the imagery suggesting?

We then wondered out-loud "to what purpose" or "what is the end result" is His enemies being placed under his feet?

What is the source for all of your cut n pastes ?

Please cite your sources otherwise it’s plagiarism .

thank you

 

[Skovand1075]

Barnyfife introduced me to Edward Fudge many months ago. I watched a video by him. Explained a lot!

He’s a wonderful teacher. If you enjoyed it you’ll probably like the podcast I mentioned , “Rethinking Hell“. Hundreds of hours of in depth debates and discussions.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post #30


So, as we would do when faced with any sort of philosophical problem, I went back - way back WE started at the beginning and appealed to scripture to clarify what the actual picture was of all this. Now, the Cavlinist have a point of view that is centered on what they called "God's Sovereignty."


To them He does His will irrespective of the will and ways of Man. This premise is sort of summarized by the "I" in the well-known acronym TULIP (where the I stands for Irresistible Grace).


Irresistible Grace essentially says that God is totally and completely sovereign and if He will's you to believe, you will believe - there is no choice on your part - His grace is irresistible. I fully embrace the idea that tGod is righteously sovereign (not just Sovereign) and that HIs will is done. Scripture supports this completely.



In fact, let's take some examples from scripture some of which may surprise some of you. Consider.



Psalms 115:3 "But our God is in the heavens; he hate done whatsoever he has please."

Proverbs 19:21 says - "There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD that shall stand."

Jesus said in Matthew 19:26 - "With God all things are possible."

Ephesians 1:11 (puts a sharp end on this point saying - speaking of Jesus it says), "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worth all things after the counsel of his own will."

That passage in and of itself seems to support the idea of irresistible grace.

Revelation 4:11 says "Thou art worthy, O Lord to receive glory and honor and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleaser they are and were created."

Daniel 4:35 adds "And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and non can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Psalms 24:1 The earth [is] the LORD', and the fulness thereof; the world and they that dwell therein."

Proverbs 16:4 says something interesting, something that troubles many: "The LORD hate made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Also listen to Isaiah 45:5-9

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou has not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west that there is none side me, I am the LORD and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and creat evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness, let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shallthe clay say to him that fasioneth it, What makes thou? or thy work, He had not hands?

To the next post: #35

 

[MatthewG]

What is the source for all of your cut n pastes ?

Please cite your sources otherwise it’s plagiarism .

thank you

it is now on the very first post. Also I am writing it out not cutting and pasting, went to the library and had this printed off, it is about 438 pages worth, and has a lot of different subjects and topics that have been studied over the years.

 

[MatthewG]

continued from post number #33

Echoing these sentiments Romans 9:21 says "Hate not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

From these passages (and many many more) we KNOW God does "whatever He pleases" . . . "that his counsels will stand" . . . that " with Him all things are possible . . . "that we are predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will" . . . and "that He even created all things for His own pleasure ??? "

When we read in proverbs that "He made all things for Himself, even the wicked,", and Isaiah it says "He created evil", and in Romans 9 it says "He has the power to create one vessel for honor and another for dishonor" (one for heaven and one for hell what are we to think!!!???



It certainly sounds like God is a Sovereign - even a despotic - God . . . at least that is the way Calvinism presents Him. But then we read passages likes James 1:3, which say " Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of GOd; For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

Does this speak to the free will of man? In the face of a sovereign God does man have free will?


Consider 1 John 1:5 which says: "This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, "That God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all."

There are so many passages that speak of God as loving, more merciful than a cold glass of water in a hot desert, more long-suffering than a thousand Jobs, and more forgiving than any human parent. How are we to understand all of this? Would a loving, good, kind, merciful, God even create human beings, whom He loves for an eternal hell?

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #35

Go back with me, then - way back to before the world or the heavens were. To the "before all things." To the place where all we can say is "God." The first and the last. Did God know all things about all things prior to creating them?


Absolutely.


In the face of this, we have to agree that He is . . .

- Omniscient (All Knowing).

-Omnipotent (All-powerful).

-Omnipresent (everywhere present).


Being all of these things, being all things, being the first and the last, knowing the beginning to the end, did this God WHOM JOHN DESCRIBES AS LOVE know all things about each and everyone of us . . . Prior to creating us?


Of course. He had to.

Not only because scripture says He did but because if He didn't he could be surprised by our acts, and if surprised then not in the control of them - which is counter to scripture. This leaves us facing a tremendous biblical conundrum. Enormous and one where the answers provided have plagued me since I could think. We are told His is light. We are told He is love. But we are also told He is in control and He does what He will. In response to this, men have come along and made propositions.


Today we have men who are claiming something called Open Theism which suggests that God doesn not know everything, He is only fully prepared to reposed to what comes up.


Intellectually it is a reasonable response but the problem with it is it counters biblical representations of Him. I reject Open Theism as a non-biblical creation of Man. Then there is Calvin.

 

[MatthewG]

Continued from post number #36

He (Calvin) took these concepts and explained them in the form of what has come to be summarized by others in the acronym TULIP.

First, God, knowing all things, unconditionally created and elected some of us, before the foundation of the world, for eternal life and others for eternal hell. Born of flesh and due to the Fall all of us are totally depraved (having no ability to choose God). Then God unconditionally elects (saves, regenerates) those whom He will "to life," then Jesus came and suffered only for the sins of those whom God elected to save (limited atonement). And because God always hets His way those whom He has elected cannot refuse His call (irresistible grace) and then finally, once He calls or elects a person they will persevere - end to the end / Once saved always saved because God doesn't give them a choice . . . His will be done!


For instance:

Isaiah 55:8-11 comes to mind where He says "For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


And then knowing GOd is love and good how are we to understand Isaiah 46:9-11

9 Remember the former things of old: For I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11: Calling a rev nous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have proposed it, and I will also do it.





What does it mean in the face of all this information we read in 2 Peter 3:9 that

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promises, as some men count slackness, but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that nay should perish, but all should come to repentance."



Or what does 1 Timothy 2:3-4 mean which says:

"For it is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge the truth?"


to the next post: #50

 

[Charlie24]

Continued from post #17

If we say they will get out, we face some degree or another picturing universalism. But if we say they will never, ever get out, we are left with the subsequent questions that bear some weight like: "Are those in the Lake of Fire (who from what Jesus says encompassed most of humanity) "literally burned" with "Literal flames of fire" "Forever and ever and ever" in the worst pain and anguish imaginable and without end?"

OR

"Are they annihilated? Burning so deep and badly that they ultimately and totally consumed?"

Or

"After a time of purposeful suffering aimed at purging and not punishment, are they let out, only to come to faith and enter His all in all at some level or another?"

The idea of no after-life loses or purging is not an option and since we know that God is just and all will reap what they have sown in this life we must dig deeper. Hang with me.

• There are four passages in the book of Revelation (which is the only book that mentions the Lake of Fire) which tie in a unique word to that place - brimstone.
• Revelation 14:10; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 21:8
• The word brimstone was translated from the Greek word "theion" - T-H-E-I-O-N.
• You probably recognize the Greek word - "These" - means God - and it's where we get the word "theology," which means the study of God.
• Additionally, the Greek word THEIOS means divine.
• So it is really easy to see that the word brimstone, which comes from the greek word THEION is in the family with other Greek words used to describe God.
• In Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament, the word brimstone is defined as fire from heaven used to purify.
• IF you check Strong's Concordance (or Thayers) you will discover that brimstone is connected to God's divine power to purify NOT punish.
• So we have to also ask, is the fire

- For punishment or purging

- for torture or trying

- for cruelty or for correction?

OK, the difference between Hell and the Lake of fire is that Hell is the temporary place of the spiritual dead, they are doomed, facing eternal separation from God. Their physical bodies are in the grave and the spirit and soul are in Hell.

The Lake of fire is the final destination of the spiritual dead, when their bodies are reunited with the spirit and soul.

This takes place at the White Throne Judgement. Their spirit and soul are called up from Hell, their physical bodies are called up from the grave, whether that physical grave is in the earth or in the sea. They are joined together and judged, then cast into the the final destination, the Lake of Fire. Hell is not done away with, it lives on in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said in Matt. 10:28,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

So we see that the body will reunite with the spirit and soul of the condemned. When that happens the body, spirit and soul of the condemned along with the Hell where they awaited judgment will be cast into the place now called the Lake of Fire.

We also see that Hell has not ended but lives on in the Lake of fire.

 

[MatthewG]

Sheol may have been turned into hell, same as with hades by the KJV but the bulk of translators don’t.

Hell and Hades are not the same place. Hades is the place of the dead . Hell is the lake of fire, aka, the second death. The KJV is notoriously known among scholars for not being a good translation and causes a lot of confusion.

I’ve mentioned elsewhere but this is one of the best books on hell that I’ve read. It’s definitely in the top 10. It’s Edward Fudge’s “ The Fire that Consumes “.

There is also a fantastic podcast hosted primarily by the budding Old Testament scholar , Chris Date , called “ Rethinking Hell “ this is to their website.
Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism)

The podcast has several hundred hours of discussions and debates on this.

Hello sir, thank you for sharing. Having al the material that is being shared now, there will be no point probably in reading that or listening. However assuredly there are some good material made from the people you have shared, I do not know.

Matthew, make the effort and listen to this. I'd even appreciate your feedback.
101 Idioms and the Bible Part One

Maybe I will get to this, I don’t know.

Eternal life or death is what God offers, your choice Matthew.

Okay Robert.

OK, the difference between Hell and the Lake of fire is that Hell is the temporary place of the spiritual dead, they are doomed, facing eternal separation from God. Their physical bodies are in the grave and the spirit and soul are in Hell.

The Lake of fire is the final destination of the spiritual dead, when their bodies are reunited with the spirit and soul.

This takes place at the White Throne Judgement. Their spirit and soul are called up from Hell, their physical bodies are called up from the grave, whether that physical grave is in the earth or in the sea. They are joined together and judged, then cast into the the final destination, the Lake of Fire. Hell is not done away with, it lives on in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said in Matt. 10:28,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

So we see that the body will reunite with the spirit and soul of the condemned. When that happens the body, spirit and soul of the condemned along with the Hell where they awaited judgment will be cast into the place now called the Lake of Fire.

We also see that Hell has not ended but lives on in the Lake of fire.

As a person who believes in subjective Christianity feel free to be yourself and share how you believe and May the Holy Spirit guide. There are several more pages that need to be written out before all this is completed, in the meantime those who desire to learn about Eternal Punishment, from a fulfillment perspective have the option to start from post one and follow along the shared information.

Anyone who desires a full copy of the book which is being quoted from should be directed to the very first post.

Thank you to all.

 

[MatthewG]

By what your saying you seem to think the soul of human beings to be a literal living person that goes to a literal place when a human being dies. This however doesn't seem to be in agreement with the scriptures. From my study of the scriptures when a human being dies he/she is no longer a living soul or living person who can literally exist anywhere.

What Genesis 2:7 says is very clear to me about what makes a human being a living soul or living person.This scripture tells us that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body. Then he blew the breath of life(spirit) into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So this scripture is telling us that it's the breath of life(spirit) combined with the flesh and blood human body that makes a living soul or living person. So if the breath of life(spirit) leaves the flesh and blood human body the living soul or living person ceases to exist. So the breath of life(spirit) separately, on it's own, without a flesh and blood human body, isn't a living soul or living person.
An example of what I'm trying to say is when hydrogen oxygen are combined it makes water, but you take either hydrogen or oxygen away and the water ceases to exist. It's the same with a human as a living person. It requires a flesh and blood human body and the the breath of life (spirit) combined for a living soul or living person to exist, take either one away and the living soul or living person ceases to exist.
So I don't see how a literal living person can go to any literal place that's called Sheol, or Hades, or Hell, when no literal living person exists to go to any literal place. These words are used symbolically to help people understand, that those that God has judged worthy of a resurrection back into existence as a living person, are in God's memory. All those who are in God's memory are guaranteed to be resurrected back into existence as a living person.

It’s okay Barney, I understand you don’t believe the soul is immortal, I disagree with you on that. But please feel free to believe whatever it is you do, because only God can change minds, us as human beings are fallible. Whoever started this whole “human being souls are not immortal” is beyond me, cause I just can’t accept that. And no amount of scripture will help change my mind on that. Cause i reject the notion… our soul is (mind/will/emotion) and it encompasses who we are as individuals, and when we die our soul leaves our body and goes onward to God.

That is my subjective view on the matter; but you may feel free to believe as you want. I would side on the notion that there is more after this life to be in the heavenly realm, and perhaps being part of the spiritual Kingdom where God resides himself for those in faith of the Lord Jesus.

Thank you for sharing though sir.


——- for others

Anyone desiring to learn about the topic of Eternal Punishment should start with post 1 and follow along the shared information.