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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I will continue to believe what Genesis 2:7 says, and what I said about Genesis 2:7 in post # 10 is true, no matter how much anyone can't accept it. God brought the first human into existence as a living soul or living person. At death humans cease to exist as living souls or living persons.
Skovand1075
Active Member
There is a point though if you wanted something that goes over this subject far. Pre in detail. I definitely don’t disagree with Shawn McCraney on that hell is not a place of enteral conscious torment. But McCreaney seems to bounce around a bit between annihilation and a sort of universalism tied to a kind of purgatory. I even agree with revelation , Matthew 24 and ect being predominantly a first century event. If you are a one book guy that’s fine. I prefer to read several books taking several positions to know why I stand where I do. Obviously the bulk of people are not going to read the study. I’m sure you’ve noticed that by now. May end up getting more help by boiling posts down to the essential points.
So now you are presenting yourself as superior to the King James translators in order to promote your heretical ideas? Your arrogance is staggering and your ignorance knows no bounds! Thousands of words being posted to deny the fact that there is an eternal Hell with everlasting torments! Let's hope no one is bamboozled by this thread.
Skovand1075
Active Member
KJV is known among scholars to be a terrible translation. It’s very doctrinally driven. I wanted to make a post , far more concise and put together, on why hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment but then this one was made. I’m not going to lose my
Comments on the long post. So I’ll wait a few weeks and do one. But it’s not really hard to convince a open and honest truth seeker on why god torturing someone for ever and ever makes no sense ethically, morally or theologically.
perhaps though you can tell what two verses are the most convincing to you that hell is a place of eternal torture? I’ll try to respond as time permits.
The "many scholars" who attack the King James Bible have their own agenda -- to promote their critical texts and their corrupt translations. So unless you have carefully researched this matter, do not rely on those "scholars" for the truth.
Regardless, the fact remains that the doctrine of an eternal Hell -- the Lake of Fire -- is a fundamental Christian doctrine based up the words of Christ Himself and also the teachings of the Bible. But all the cults deny this doctrine, just as they deny the deity of Christ and the reality of the Trinity.
Torment is not the same as torture, so kindly be more precise. Just two verses should suffice:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41)... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)
These verse are self-explanatory. And since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught us very clearly about eternal Hell, those who dispute this doctrine are calling Christ a liar.
You can always use a program called E-sword it is very helpful resource tool when it comes to looking into the Bible, and how many times something is said.
Okay.
Someone will perhaps take on the study.
Either way,
God bless to all.
In universalism does all ways lead to heaven? Because if the this is the case, this is now what I personally believe, Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
Anyway going to move forward sharing posts.
Thank you all ahead of time.
Continued from post : #37
Somehow, we have to come to terms with ALL of this information -- not just some of it and NOT embracing what generations of Men and Women have taught and believed if it is NOT right nor biblically sound.
So go with me again back to the beginning - prior to where God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is.
If (or since) God knew He was going to create beings that would become kindling for hell, burning forever and ever and ever in real flames and created them anyway, calling it, His Good Pleasure, we have a serious problem with other passages that call Him love, and good, and merciful, and Holy.
Calvinism, has provided the word with a myopic and therefore limited view of God - emphasizing His sovereignty while either ignoring or redefining what love is. On the other hand, Arminianism, a response to Calvinism, refutes God's Sovereignty and places salvation in the hands of a man who is responsible for freely choosing all things and then being responsible for keep his salvation thereafter.
Is there a reasonable, biblical reposes that offers us a solution to these seemingly contradictory issues and if there is, what does it ultimately reveal to us? I would strongly suggest there is an alternative view - neither Calvinisitic nor Arminianist - that is wholly biblically.
Let's say this from the start - we want nothing to do with the philosophies of Man. We do not want to tickle ears or please men instead of honoring God. We want to teach what is biblical and refuse that which is not. the Bible must be taken as a whole and as a whole, we are faced with some paradoxical issues.
Nevertheless, let us also warn ourselves . . . what the explantation will ultimately reveal or suggest is going to be considered by heretical by most.
May God and His Word enable you to decide for yourselves. So here we go.
First of all, we must admit that God is certainly righteous sovereign and in total and complete control over things in and through His Righteous ways. Can or would real agape love control the way we define control or the way the Calvinist defines control. I would suggest not.
Control, as we see and define it, is diabolical in most applications. Love is liberating and free and never controlling. How then is God (who IS love - pure love, all love, the very definition of love) completely but righteously Sovereign?
By his foreknowledge.
Somehow, we have to come to terms with ALL of this information -- not just some of it and NOT embracing what generations of Men and Women have taught and believed if it is NOT right nor biblically sound.
So go with me again back to the beginning - prior to where God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is.
If (or since) God knew He was going to create beings that would become kindling for hell, burning forever and ever and ever in real flames and created them anyway, calling it, His Good Pleasure, we have a serious problem with other passages that call Him love, and good, and merciful, and Holy.
Calvinism, has provided the word with a myopic and therefore limited view of God - emphasizing His sovereignty while either ignoring or redefining what love is. On the other hand, Arminianism, a response to Calvinism, refutes God's Sovereignty and places salvation in the hands of a man who is responsible for freely choosing all things and then being responsible for keep his salvation thereafter.
Is there a reasonable, biblical reposes that offers us a solution to these seemingly contradictory issues and if there is, what does it ultimately reveal to us? I would strongly suggest there is an alternative view - neither Calvinisitic nor Arminianist - that is wholly biblically.
Let's say this from the start - we want nothing to do with the philosophies of Man. We do not want to tickle ears or please men instead of honoring God. We want to teach what is biblical and refuse that which is not. the Bible must be taken as a whole and as a whole, we are faced with some paradoxical issues.
Nevertheless, let us also warn ourselves . . . what the explantation will ultimately reveal or suggest is going to be considered by heretical by most.
May God and His Word enable you to decide for yourselves. So here we go.
First of all, we must admit that God is certainly righteous sovereign and in total and complete control over things in and through His Righteous ways. Can or would real agape love control the way we define control or the way the Calvinist defines control. I would suggest not.
Control, as we see and define it, is diabolical in most applications. Love is liberating and free and never controlling. How then is God (who IS love - pure love, all love, the very definition of love) completely but righteously Sovereign?
By his foreknowledge.
Continued from post number #50
He controls by foreknowledge, not by force. We get a picture of this in the story of Joesph when he was sold into Egypt by his brothers.
After going through all sorts of hell, he became a mighty prince overseeing the distribution of food. When the brothers who sold him into Egypt years early came to him in search of food, he revealed himself. Of course, they felt horrible and frightened for having sold him but Jospeh said in Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God amenity unto good, to bring to pass, as this day, to save many people alive."
How did a good and loving GOd, in light of the free will choices He knew human would take before creating them, still create them, knowing some would burn in forever in hell? Additionally, how is He able to have His will done in the face of such free-will choices?
Foreknowledge friends, foreknowledge.
His omniscient foreknowledge existing in the glory of pure love allows for human beings and angels and saints and demons to freely choose while at the same time giving him total and ultimate control over all things and for His pleasure.
We'll get more into what His good will and loving pleasure is next week.
Speaking of His foreknowledge God said through Isaiah 42:9
"Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them"
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standers for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Speaking to King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel said:
Daniel 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and taketh know to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.
Speaking of the day when heaven and earth will pass away, Jesus said:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
That's foreknowledge. In describing himself, Peter said that he was 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
He controls by foreknowledge, not by force. We get a picture of this in the story of Joesph when he was sold into Egypt by his brothers.
After going through all sorts of hell, he became a mighty prince overseeing the distribution of food. When the brothers who sold him into Egypt years early came to him in search of food, he revealed himself. Of course, they felt horrible and frightened for having sold him but Jospeh said in Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God amenity unto good, to bring to pass, as this day, to save many people alive."
How did a good and loving GOd, in light of the free will choices He knew human would take before creating them, still create them, knowing some would burn in forever in hell? Additionally, how is He able to have His will done in the face of such free-will choices?
Foreknowledge friends, foreknowledge.
His omniscient foreknowledge existing in the glory of pure love allows for human beings and angels and saints and demons to freely choose while at the same time giving him total and ultimate control over all things and for His pleasure.
We'll get more into what His good will and loving pleasure is next week.
Speaking of His foreknowledge God said through Isaiah 42:9
"Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them"
Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standers for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Speaking to King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel said:
Daniel 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and taketh know to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.
Speaking of the day when heaven and earth will pass away, Jesus said:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
That's foreknowledge. In describing himself, Peter said that he was 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Continued from post #51
Even when it came to suffering and death of His own Son, we know it did NOT occur by the indiscriminate actions of the Jews, or the Romans, or even of Satan Himself, but by and through the foreknowledge of God. Did God force Satan or Jews or Romans to do what they did? Not in the least. They chose. But God, knowing all things, allowed them to do what they chose to do to bring about His sovereign will.
In Acts 2:23 Peter is speaking to a group of Jews on the day of Pentecost and says to them:
"Him (meaning Jesus) being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
When Jesus was taken, by the Jews was there any surprise to God? Not at all. Again listen to what Peter said:
"Jesus was . . . delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God to them, where they took Him and with wicked hands crucified and slayed Him."
So, again, let's go back. Ask yourselves,
In the beginning did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
Absolutely. NO surprises, right? Did Satan get them to sin? Sure. He tempted them. Did God create Satan? Yes. In this way did God for them to fall? No. Did Adam and Eve have the free will to choose evil? You bet.
As a result, scripture says that Jesus was slain from BEFORE the foundations of the world. Stay with me now. We know from scripture that God is good, light, love. He desires a good and expected end, not an evil one. We know that out of His good pleasure (and out of His loving good pleasure because God is LOVE) that He created all things, knowing beforehand how all things would freely live, and walk and be.
Not forcing us to be, but freely allowed us to be.
Prior to creating all thing with a complete foreknowledge of them would a loving God desire or will that only some would be saved or all?
Again, we know His love, and mercy, and forgiving, and long-suffering, so PRIOR to creating all things, having completed foreknowledge of all things from beginning to the end, would it be His desires that only some of His creations are redeemed or that all of them are? We know from scripture He is righteously sovereign and HE will have His way. But we also know He is all about freedom so He doesn't have His desire met by and through force, He has it by and through working in and around the free choices of Man - which He foresaw form the beginning.
Got all that?
To the next post: #54
Even when it came to suffering and death of His own Son, we know it did NOT occur by the indiscriminate actions of the Jews, or the Romans, or even of Satan Himself, but by and through the foreknowledge of God. Did God force Satan or Jews or Romans to do what they did? Not in the least. They chose. But God, knowing all things, allowed them to do what they chose to do to bring about His sovereign will.
In Acts 2:23 Peter is speaking to a group of Jews on the day of Pentecost and says to them:
"Him (meaning Jesus) being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
When Jesus was taken, by the Jews was there any surprise to God? Not at all. Again listen to what Peter said:
"Jesus was . . . delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God to them, where they took Him and with wicked hands crucified and slayed Him."
So, again, let's go back. Ask yourselves,
In the beginning did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
Absolutely. NO surprises, right? Did Satan get them to sin? Sure. He tempted them. Did God create Satan? Yes. In this way did God for them to fall? No. Did Adam and Eve have the free will to choose evil? You bet.
As a result, scripture says that Jesus was slain from BEFORE the foundations of the world. Stay with me now. We know from scripture that God is good, light, love. He desires a good and expected end, not an evil one. We know that out of His good pleasure (and out of His loving good pleasure because God is LOVE) that He created all things, knowing beforehand how all things would freely live, and walk and be.
Not forcing us to be, but freely allowed us to be.
Prior to creating all thing with a complete foreknowledge of them would a loving God desire or will that only some would be saved or all?
Again, we know His love, and mercy, and forgiving, and long-suffering, so PRIOR to creating all things, having completed foreknowledge of all things from beginning to the end, would it be His desires that only some of His creations are redeemed or that all of them are? We know from scripture He is righteously sovereign and HE will have His way. But we also know He is all about freedom so He doesn't have His desire met by and through force, He has it by and through working in and around the free choices of Man - which He foresaw form the beginning.
Got all that?
To the next post: #54
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Continued from post #52
AS a means to help round out the idea that God has done a number of things to bring about His ultimate will in the existence of free-will Man, let's talk about the very biblical concept of first-fruits.
The word used for first-fruits in the Greek is (aparchn) and it generally applies to the first-fruits of a harvest - or the that which is first collected and consecrated to God as an offering of gratitude. The idea is when the blessing of God is poured out we respond by taking the first part of it, in recognition of His love and Mercy, and give it to Him. Built within the concept is an order or rank.
Additionally, first-fruits also applies to the best of the whole harvest. So let's say you have a grove of apple tress and you want to give the first-fruits to God.
This does NOT mean the very first apples to come to the grove are God's. In Fact, we learn from Leviticus 19:23-25 that when it came to tree first-fruits the Children of Israel were to wait for four cycles of the harvests before either offering first fruits or harvesting them for themselves. So the order and rank part applies to the first acceptable harvest as a whole and the best of the harvest.
Numbers 18:12 says it well:
"All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the first-fruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee."
When it comes to humans, the first-fruits of the womb, however, is always the firstborn sons, which is naturally a picture of our Lord. The purpose and symbolism are manifest even in our day and age. The person to be served first is typically someone of the highest honor.
Proverbs 3:9 says, "Honor the LORD with thy substance, and with the first-fruits of all thine increase."
It goes without saying that the first-fruits, as we've defined them, were very important to GOd. Ezekiel 48:14 says
"And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, or alienate the first-fruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD"
So, and in accordance with God and His Sovereign ways and perfect foreknowledge, the idea of first-fruits - picturing His Only Begotten Son - was initiated from the beginning. Remember, first fruits include the concept of the best, the first, and the rank among others what are to come. Did you hear me? First-fruits include the notions of the best of a crop, the first out of a crop, and a rank (meaning there are other ranks coming behind the first and best.)
When God created everything in the Garden of Eden it was good. Adam and Eve were the first-fruits of all humanity. They were first, they were the best (God created them, right) and they were first in rank. God gave them a choice - to love Him and therefore obey Him or to choose their own will and way. Did God know what they do? Certainly. Which is why scripture says that His Son was slain before the foundations of the World. Did others follow in after the first and best called Adam and Eve? Certainly. Even all the way down to each of us today.
To the next post: #56
AS a means to help round out the idea that God has done a number of things to bring about His ultimate will in the existence of free-will Man, let's talk about the very biblical concept of first-fruits.
The word used for first-fruits in the Greek is (aparchn) and it generally applies to the first-fruits of a harvest - or the that which is first collected and consecrated to God as an offering of gratitude. The idea is when the blessing of God is poured out we respond by taking the first part of it, in recognition of His love and Mercy, and give it to Him. Built within the concept is an order or rank.
Additionally, first-fruits also applies to the best of the whole harvest. So let's say you have a grove of apple tress and you want to give the first-fruits to God.
This does NOT mean the very first apples to come to the grove are God's. In Fact, we learn from Leviticus 19:23-25 that when it came to tree first-fruits the Children of Israel were to wait for four cycles of the harvests before either offering first fruits or harvesting them for themselves. So the order and rank part applies to the first acceptable harvest as a whole and the best of the harvest.
Numbers 18:12 says it well:
"All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the first-fruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee."
When it comes to humans, the first-fruits of the womb, however, is always the firstborn sons, which is naturally a picture of our Lord. The purpose and symbolism are manifest even in our day and age. The person to be served first is typically someone of the highest honor.
Proverbs 3:9 says, "Honor the LORD with thy substance, and with the first-fruits of all thine increase."
It goes without saying that the first-fruits, as we've defined them, were very important to GOd. Ezekiel 48:14 says
"And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, or alienate the first-fruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD"
So, and in accordance with God and His Sovereign ways and perfect foreknowledge, the idea of first-fruits - picturing His Only Begotten Son - was initiated from the beginning. Remember, first fruits include the concept of the best, the first, and the rank among others what are to come. Did you hear me? First-fruits include the notions of the best of a crop, the first out of a crop, and a rank (meaning there are other ranks coming behind the first and best.)
When God created everything in the Garden of Eden it was good. Adam and Eve were the first-fruits of all humanity. They were first, they were the best (God created them, right) and they were first in rank. God gave them a choice - to love Him and therefore obey Him or to choose their own will and way. Did God know what they do? Certainly. Which is why scripture says that His Son was slain before the foundations of the World. Did others follow in after the first and best called Adam and Eve? Certainly. Even all the way down to each of us today.
To the next post: #56
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Continued from post #54
With the first-fruits of the Human race failing to love and choose God, God elected a nation above all other nations.
Romans 11:16, speaking of the Nation of Israel and likening them to a tree God created and elected for specific purposes, Paul wrote to Gentile believers in Rome:
"For if the first-fruit be holy, the lamb is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches."
See, the first-fruit nation, like the first-fruit couple, failed to live the law and choose God. Now listen - the sis key -
Just as more individuals came after the first-fruit couple of Adam and Eve, filling the earth, so did other nations follow in after the first fruit nation fails dto choose God and ultimately rejected the Messiah.
Listen - ALL OTHER NATIONS right?
God has elected (based on His foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve and the Nation of Israel would choose to do) to use them so He would achieve His good pleasure and will, not because He respected them anymore but because of His foreknowledge of what they would do.
Then we know that God sent His Only Begotten Son, right? Who was the first-fruits of God (not the Father) and of Mary and the only one to do His will? In Many ways, Jesus was the first and only of the Church.
First and only born of a virgin.
First and only without sin.
First and only to come down from above.
First and only to obey the Law.
And having been the best, the first, and the first of an order of humanity, he became the first-fruits in overcoming, the grave by overcoming sin and death. Listen as 1 Corinthians 15:20 says it "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firs-tfurits of them that slept."
Because of Him, all mankind (every rank ) will be resurrected or as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:23 "but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
From His ascension on, the Church - His Church comprised of individual believers, has become the first-fruits of believers.
Romans 8:23 call us, the first-fruits of the Spirit.
Of the first, of a rank, of therefore, the best of all.
First-fruits play such a role in God and His achieving His own pleasure and will that when a person became a belier in a certain geographical area, they were known as the first-fruits of that area. In Romans 16:5, Paul is giving greetings and says "Likewise greek the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the First-fruits of Achaia" unto Christ."
Here is the point, first-fruits in no way suggests that there is no fruit coming after. It merely signifes the first of the best, the first in rank and the first among many.
Adam and Eve were followed by more people.
That Nation of Israel, was followed by more nations.
Jesus, the first resurrected, was and will be followed by more.
With the first-fruits of the Human race failing to love and choose God, God elected a nation above all other nations.
Romans 11:16, speaking of the Nation of Israel and likening them to a tree God created and elected for specific purposes, Paul wrote to Gentile believers in Rome:
"For if the first-fruit be holy, the lamb is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches."
See, the first-fruit nation, like the first-fruit couple, failed to live the law and choose God. Now listen - the sis key -
Just as more individuals came after the first-fruit couple of Adam and Eve, filling the earth, so did other nations follow in after the first fruit nation fails dto choose God and ultimately rejected the Messiah.
Listen - ALL OTHER NATIONS right?
God has elected (based on His foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve and the Nation of Israel would choose to do) to use them so He would achieve His good pleasure and will, not because He respected them anymore but because of His foreknowledge of what they would do.
Then we know that God sent His Only Begotten Son, right? Who was the first-fruits of God (not the Father) and of Mary and the only one to do His will? In Many ways, Jesus was the first and only of the Church.
First and only born of a virgin.
First and only without sin.
First and only to come down from above.
First and only to obey the Law.
And having been the best, the first, and the first of an order of humanity, he became the first-fruits in overcoming, the grave by overcoming sin and death. Listen as 1 Corinthians 15:20 says it "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firs-tfurits of them that slept."
Because of Him, all mankind (every rank ) will be resurrected or as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:23 "but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
From His ascension on, the Church - His Church comprised of individual believers, has become the first-fruits of believers.
Romans 8:23 call us, the first-fruits of the Spirit.
Of the first, of a rank, of therefore, the best of all.
First-fruits play such a role in God and His achieving His own pleasure and will that when a person became a belier in a certain geographical area, they were known as the first-fruits of that area. In Romans 16:5, Paul is giving greetings and says "Likewise greek the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the First-fruits of Achaia" unto Christ."
Here is the point, first-fruits in no way suggests that there is no fruit coming after. It merely signifes the first of the best, the first in rank and the first among many.
Adam and Eve were followed by more people.
That Nation of Israel, was followed by more nations.
Jesus, the first resurrected, was and will be followed by more.
Continued from post number #56
The first believers of an area would be followed by more, and the church of the redeemed will be followed by more, James 1:18 says it well:
"Of his own will (of His own good pleasure) begat us with the word of truth (according to His election based on His foreknowledge), that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures".
Just as the Nation of Israel thought the sun rose and set on them, and could not accept subsequent nations as being His too, we, in the church, have made an error in believing that the sun rises and sets only on us.
More are coming. I would say, even all are coming, perfectly supporting the fact that God is all knowing, is in control, is Love, and being love He completely supports the free will of every man, yet in the end, God will always have His way. And that way is total victory over all things - Satan, Hell, the Lake of Fire, and even the free will of Man.
God has had this total victory in and through the work of His only human son. Like a good shepherd, none are lost but all are reconciled to the Father by and through His life, HIs love, His long-suffering, patience and ultimately His total and complete victory over all things.
Since we know that GOd is love, and since we know that He is all knowing (From before the moment He created all things), and since He always has His will and desires accomplished (by and through His foreknowledge NOT by force) the only way to merge all of these biblically supported facts is to suggest that He will use the "Lake of Fire" (which was not created for the consumption of human beings but for Satan and his Angels) to purge the dross from the many who will go there . . . and once purged, the loving God, the long-suffering God, the God who "forgives" all things, would at the confession of His Son, bring all of His Creations from "purposeful purging as Jesus has paid for all their sin (except the sin of unbelief).
In this way, I suggested, God would through a number of different means, and peoples (including his first-fruits) would ultimately accomplish all of HIs good will and desires.
So, after all of this preface material and biblical ideas, lets summarize it all down to a workable understandable whole:
The first believers of an area would be followed by more, and the church of the redeemed will be followed by more, James 1:18 says it well:
"Of his own will (of His own good pleasure) begat us with the word of truth (according to His election based on His foreknowledge), that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures".
Just as the Nation of Israel thought the sun rose and set on them, and could not accept subsequent nations as being His too, we, in the church, have made an error in believing that the sun rises and sets only on us.
More are coming. I would say, even all are coming, perfectly supporting the fact that God is all knowing, is in control, is Love, and being love He completely supports the free will of every man, yet in the end, God will always have His way. And that way is total victory over all things - Satan, Hell, the Lake of Fire, and even the free will of Man.
God has had this total victory in and through the work of His only human son. Like a good shepherd, none are lost but all are reconciled to the Father by and through His life, HIs love, His long-suffering, patience and ultimately His total and complete victory over all things.
Since we know that GOd is love, and since we know that He is all knowing (From before the moment He created all things), and since He always has His will and desires accomplished (by and through His foreknowledge NOT by force) the only way to merge all of these biblically supported facts is to suggest that He will use the "Lake of Fire" (which was not created for the consumption of human beings but for Satan and his Angels) to purge the dross from the many who will go there . . . and once purged, the loving God, the long-suffering God, the God who "forgives" all things, would at the confession of His Son, bring all of His Creations from "purposeful purging as Jesus has paid for all their sin (except the sin of unbelief).
In this way, I suggested, God would through a number of different means, and peoples (including his first-fruits) would ultimately accomplish all of HIs good will and desires.
So, after all of this preface material and biblical ideas, lets summarize it all down to a workable understandable whole:
SUMMARY ETERNAL PUNISHMENT
Jesus has had the total victory over all things, sin, death, Satan, hell. In 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, the genealogies, a million plus Jews, and the Law, all things have been fulfilled. This was the commencement of the New Heaven and a New Earth, and a New Jerusalem and Kingdom that thrives spiritually in the Hearst and lives of those who are truly God's through Christ.
All people since that time are called to come to Christ by the Spirit. Those who love this world and the things of it spend their lives sowing to their flesh, they are building houses on sand, and they have their rewards - here and now. When they die, they will clearly that Jesus is Lord, that they have been forgiven of sin, and because they will believe they will confess by the Spirit.
They will be rewarded (by and through the resurrected boy God choose to give them) according to what they sowed to the spirit, to the heavenly kingdom, to the things of God. All that was of their flesh, al that was of this world, all that was built on foundations of temporal sand, will be forever lost, consumed in the fire that is God.
Those who sowed little to the Spirit will receive little, - one that which was sown in the eternal soil will bear eternal fruit. In this way, the first (on earth) will be last and the last (on earth because they cared not for the things of that world) will be first.
This who seek, hear, and follow the Spirit of Truth in this life are reborn and begin to "Sow unto the spirit", to eternal things, to the invisible and eternal Kingdom. The more they lived to the Spirit and not the flesh the greater they will retain and be rewarded in and through the resurrected bod that God choose to give them in the hereafter.
Is there afterlife punishment? In and through loss, yes. Is it eternal? In and through the fact that the rewards found in and through their resurrected body are eternal, yes. Is there any reality to eternal suffering in the hell or lakes of literal fire applied to the souls of the rebellious and Godless?
Not anymore.
Religious Crooks
Preaching and treating people with eternal afterlife punishment in hell or the Lake of Fire is central to the evangelical faith. For some reason, many believers relish in the idea of hellfire as the future reality of all non-believers. Pastors and preachers also seem to enjoy preaching this position as irrefutable. It fills the pews as fear is often a primary motivator for people. Unfortunately, the idea is anachronistic relative to the biblical test nor does it meet the demands of thoughtful scriptural scrutiny. That afterlife loss is a reality can not be disputed. It is a certain for the existences of those who have chosen to live a life to their flesh, but the notion of eternal, relentless punishment in literal flames of fire is a godless fiction and should be challenged gently but relentless whenever it is presented up.
Jesus has had the total victory over all things, sin, death, Satan, hell. In 70 AD at the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, the genealogies, a million plus Jews, and the Law, all things have been fulfilled. This was the commencement of the New Heaven and a New Earth, and a New Jerusalem and Kingdom that thrives spiritually in the Hearst and lives of those who are truly God's through Christ.
All people since that time are called to come to Christ by the Spirit. Those who love this world and the things of it spend their lives sowing to their flesh, they are building houses on sand, and they have their rewards - here and now. When they die, they will clearly that Jesus is Lord, that they have been forgiven of sin, and because they will believe they will confess by the Spirit.
They will be rewarded (by and through the resurrected boy God choose to give them) according to what they sowed to the spirit, to the heavenly kingdom, to the things of God. All that was of their flesh, al that was of this world, all that was built on foundations of temporal sand, will be forever lost, consumed in the fire that is God.
Those who sowed little to the Spirit will receive little, - one that which was sown in the eternal soil will bear eternal fruit. In this way, the first (on earth) will be last and the last (on earth because they cared not for the things of that world) will be first.
This who seek, hear, and follow the Spirit of Truth in this life are reborn and begin to "Sow unto the spirit", to eternal things, to the invisible and eternal Kingdom. The more they lived to the Spirit and not the flesh the greater they will retain and be rewarded in and through the resurrected bod that God choose to give them in the hereafter.
Is there afterlife punishment? In and through loss, yes. Is it eternal? In and through the fact that the rewards found in and through their resurrected body are eternal, yes. Is there any reality to eternal suffering in the hell or lakes of literal fire applied to the souls of the rebellious and Godless?
Not anymore.
Religious Crooks
Preaching and treating people with eternal afterlife punishment in hell or the Lake of Fire is central to the evangelical faith. For some reason, many believers relish in the idea of hellfire as the future reality of all non-believers. Pastors and preachers also seem to enjoy preaching this position as irrefutable. It fills the pews as fear is often a primary motivator for people. Unfortunately, the idea is anachronistic relative to the biblical test nor does it meet the demands of thoughtful scriptural scrutiny. That afterlife loss is a reality can not be disputed. It is a certain for the existences of those who have chosen to live a life to their flesh, but the notion of eternal, relentless punishment in literal flames of fire is a godless fiction and should be challenged gently but relentless whenever it is presented up.
This is now completed.
Follow the first post and hopefully the links will keep you along the way unto the SUMMARY.
God bless and may this information be extremely useful to you on this topic of study - Eternal Punishment.
Follow the first post and hopefully the links will keep you along the way unto the SUMMARY.
God bless and may this information be extremely useful to you on this topic of study - Eternal Punishment.
It's a completed farce!
1John 2:17
"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Here we see the contrast of the world/lust coming to an end, but forever going into infinity.
This is proof that "forever" does not come to an end in age, as the UR insists on! But it can depending on context.
As far as the "flames and fire" you speak of,
Matt. 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
These are men to whom Jesus is speaking. They will go to "everlasting fire" that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
So we see that man will be in "flames" and it will be "everlasting/forever." Into infinity!
Everlasting and forever both come from the Greek word "aionios."
You can read something 100 times, but if you are willfully blind, you will continue to be blind. I have already posted two verses to refute your false beliefs about eternal Hell. So you can either repent of false doctrine, or you can persist in your heresies. The choice is yours.
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