In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth

[Cristo Rei]

In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth...

Do u take the the 7 days literally? If so then how could Satan already be tempting Eve on the 7th day? There was a big war in heaven and Lucifer was cast out along with 1/3 of the angels. A war typically goes for longer than 7 days, right? And the snake is Satan? So?

How do u guys account for the light at the start. The most probable view for me, is that there was a chunk of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way it continues suggests it as well i think.

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep"

That could be a metaphor for the evil one. "The surface of the deep", i don't know what that could be but it conjures up evil i in my mind.
Good and evil have been battling since the beginning. The bible says that im fairly sure. And to begin His work God flushed out the darkness with his light. Its the classic metaphor of light and dark, good and evil.

So He separates light from dark and names them day and night. I think that is the same metaphor cos on the forth day thats when builds the sun, moon and the stars to
"govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness"
To govern things. This sounds like its literal i think.

Day 2 God didn't need the sun but after day 3 then he really does have to get it up there in order for the plants to grow.

Im just thinking out loud. There are heaps of interpretations of it and im not claiming to be infallible. On the balance of probability i lean towards this...

You?

 

[Cristo Rei]

@Backlit @Reggie Belafonte @JohnDB @Barbara @Josho @APAK @Adoration @Enoch111 @April_Rose

I know im missing some good people on the guest list there. Anyway...

Read above... Share your thoughts... Much appreciated....

 

[Rita]

Not sure my thoughts will be very helpful Cristo, I don’t delve into the timing ect over creation as I just trust God knows how it all came about. I cannot prove anything, it’s too big. I guess one question would be How long was a day ‘ in the beginning. We base it on the prospective of our time frame. We know that the seven days is the basis for our week, and we know that seven defines perfection. However doesn’t scripture define that a year can be a thousand years with God, he is not bound by our limits and understanding of time.

Rita x

 

[Brakelite]

Read the first four chapters...
Patriarchs and Prophets (1890) (akamaihd.net)

 

[Enoch111]

If so then how could Satan already be tempting Eve on the 7th day?

How did you arrive at this incorrect conclusion? We are not told as to how soon after creation Satan entered the Garden of Eden. It was definitely not on the 7th day, but it may have been very shortly afterwards.

But this has nothing to do with the fact that God created the universe in six literal 24-hour days. You can either accept this by faith, or believe the nonsense that is presented alternatively.

 

[Cristo Rei]

How did you arrive at this incorrect conclusion? We are not told as to how soon after creation Satan entered the Garden of Eden. It was definitely not on the 7th day, but it may have been very shortly afterwards.

But this has nothing to do with the fact that God created the universe in six literal 24-hour days. You can either accept this by faith, or believe the nonsense that is presented alternatively.

First of all id like to repeat this...

Im just thinking out loud. There are heaps of interpretations of it and im not claiming to be infallible

There is no conclusion at all on my behalf. Certainly not of an infallible nature anyway.
U seem to be claiming infallibility but. I tip my hat to u

 

[Cristo Rei]

Read the first four chapters...
Patriarchs and Prophets (1890) (akamaihd.net)

Four chapters... Mate... Mate... I haven't got the time ATM can u give me a brief pls

 

[Cristo Rei]

How did you arrive at this incorrect conclusion? We are not told as to how soon after creation Satan entered the Garden of Eden. It was definitely not on the 7th day, but it may have been very shortly afterwards.

But this has nothing to do with the fact that God created the universe in six literal 24-hour days. You can either accept this by faith, or believe the nonsense that is presented alternatively.

Actually, u hold a very firm belief about this. Ok
I want your opinion to this suggestion made by someone else


Here's the evidence;

1. Genesis 1:1 is a complete stand-alone sentence in the Hebrew. The word "creation" ("bara" - Heb.) is not used again until God made the living creatures.
2. The rest of Genesis 1 uses the word "asah" which means "to build or make out of existing materials". That means, except for the living creatures, everything done in Genesis 1:2 onward is with materials that were already in place
3. Genesis 1:2, when literally translated is; "But the earth became a chaos, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." This strongly indicates that the earth was in good order and something catastrophic happened
4. The condition of being covered by water and in darkness strongly suggests God's judgement, especially when the heavenly lights were still in place
5. The "days" (except the first Sabbath) that followed were defined by the Holy Spirit - "the evening and the morning" - 24 hours from sunset to sunset
6. God is never the author of chaos (Isa.45:18). Something else must have caused the chaos of verse 2

This view is disputed, but the most likely thing that happened is that God made the earth in good order. His first governor was Lucifer. Sometime after he became "Prince of this world", he rebelled and his rebellion caused God's judgment. But God can never look upon chaos forever. So in due course He restored the earth to pristine condition in six 24-hour-days, and set a new governor - man, on the earth to "subdue it" and then rule it. This will account for Satan's presence there. According to Job 38, the Lord made the angels before the earth because they rejoiced when God laid the foundations of the earth (v.6-7).

 

[JohnDB]

Okay,
First off...(not going to answer everything but a lot of what you have asked)
The creation account is not God's diary describing the method used to build the Universe and especially the Earth. Scriptures contain History...but it's not a history book.

Especially since He gave it to us for us to know and understand. We are never going to be able to build a universe ourselves...we have trouble getting rockets into Earth's orbit...much less far enough to visit another planet with people.

There's a lot going on in the scriptures in these first chapters that explain exactly what God is responsible for making.

"In the Beginning" in Hebrew is all one word...and a bit of a stretch for most translators who are loathe to put more than a word for a word translation but none would suffice. But we, in view of the entirety of scriptures, know that God here just created the construct of time. There wouldn't be any beginning without God. (There won't be an end without Him either.)
God is timeless.
God created the Heavens and the Earth.
The words used in Hebrew here (contrary to popular opinion) are not a complete sentence. The reader is left dangling in want of a material used to create the Heavens and the earth out of. "Bars" is the root verb in Hebrew and demands a material...

I can bara a wooden table, a marble table or even bara a paper table...but here in this fragment there is no materials used in the construction of the Heavens and the Earth.

Then notice the plural Heavens but singular Earth. I could pontificate for hours upon hours on this one. Indeed people have written encyclopedia sized books on this first sentence alone. But suffice it to say that God is responsible for it all.

The Earth (and universe) was shapeless and void and the Spirit of God was hovering/shaking over the face of the waters.

Ok...God hasn't created water yet in this narrative...so how can there be any water?
Unless the scriptures are saying something else not readily understood by our westernized mindset.

How about that in the ancient near eastern mindset that "Water" is a symbol for Law and that this hovering/shaking over the face is God picking each and every natural law that is going to govern this universe. God is intimately aware of all of them. He is in the rule's face as it is sometimes said. God's understanding of Quantum mechanics and physics is way beyond any scientific community's dreams. So....if you don't like how something works in the world...take it up with God.

Let there be light.

Now for a first day that ain't much...if God spent a whole lot of time just creating photons...but that's not really what God is doing. God is making the plan for Jesus to come and die and ride the White horse at the end of creation. And He did all of this before the Earth was even formed into a ball yet.

Now... about these "Days".
A "day" is to God what is thousands of millenia to us. Remember time itself is freshly made. So...God calling it a "day"...I'm not really in a place to disagree...He is God after all...but those words "evening" and "morning" frame the night time when hidden things happen. Also they mean "chaos" and "clarity/order" respectively. So it's a backhanded way of saying that God brings order out of chaos.

The poetry of Genesis is lost on us poor schmucks who can't read and think in hebrew. But it's beautiful poetry conveying lots of ideas and thoughts in an extremely few amounts of words...
Paper and ink weren't recoded as being invented for a long time. Egyptian hyrigliphics are one of the first written languages. (Ugarit and one other are around the same time period)
So...when the Jews are running about in the Wilderness they were using the Torah as a guide to learn reading, writing, arithmetic, and history and of course the Law. Child and adult alike were getting an edumakateshun.
Considering what they once were treated like (property) and now getting the very best and most complicated technology on the planet....huge stretch.

 

[Brakelite]

Four chapters... Mate... Mate... I haven't got the time ATM can u give me a brief pls

They're not long chapters and you'll enjoy them.

 

[Cristo Rei]

Okay,
First off...(not going to answer everything but a lot of what you have asked)
The creation account is not God's diary describing the method used to build the Universe and especially the Earth. Scriptures contain History...but it's not a history book.

Especially since He gave it to us for us to know and understand. We are never going to be able to build a universe ourselves...we have trouble getting rockets into Earth's orbit...much less far enough to visit another planet with people.

There's a lot going on in the scriptures in these first chapters that explain exactly what God is responsible for making.

"In the Beginning" in Hebrew is all one word...and a bit of a stretch for most translators who are loathe to put more than a word for a word translation but none would suffice. But we, in view of the entirety of scriptures, know that God here just created the construct of time. There wouldn't be any beginning without God. (There won't be an end without Him either.)
God is timeless.
God created the Heavens and the Earth.
The words used in Hebrew here (contrary to popular opinion) are not a complete sentence. The reader is left dangling in want of a material used to create the Heavens and the earth out of. "Bars" is the root verb in Hebrew and demands a material...

I can bara a wooden table, a marble table or even bara a paper table...but here in this fragment there is no materials used in the construction of the Heavens and the Earth.

Then notice the plural Heavens but singular Earth. I could pontificate for hours upon hours on this one. Indeed people have written encyclopedia sized books on this first sentence alone. But suffice it to say that God is responsible for it all.

The Earth (and universe) was shapeless and void and the Spirit of God was hovering/shaking over the face of the waters.

Ok...God hasn't created water yet in this narrative...so how can there be any water?
Unless the scriptures are saying something else not readily understood by our westernized mindset.

How about that in the ancient near eastern mindset that "Water" is a symbol for Law and that this hovering/shaking over the face is God picking each and every natural law that is going to govern this universe. God is intimately aware of all of them. He is in the rule's face as it is sometimes said. God's understanding of Quantum mechanics and physics is way beyond any scientific community's dreams. So....if you don't like how something works in the world...take it up with God.

Let there be light.

Now for a first day that ain't much...if God spent a whole lot of time just creating photons...but that's not really what God is doing. God is making the plan for Jesus to come and die and ride the White horse at the end of creation. And He did all of this before the Earth was even formed into a ball yet.

Now... about these "Days".
A "day" is to God what is thousands of millenia to us. Remember time itself is freshly made. So...God calling it a "day"...I'm not really in a place to disagree...He is God after all...but those words "evening" and "morning" frame the night time when hidden things happen. Also they mean "chaos" and "clarity/order" respectively. So it's a backhanded way of saying that God brings order out of chaos.

The poetry of Genesis is lost on us poor schmucks who can't read and think in hebrew. But it's beautiful poetry conveying lots of ideas and thoughts in an extremely few amounts of words...
Paper and ink weren't recoded as being invented for a long time. Egyptian hyrigliphics are one of the first written languages. (Ugarit and one other are around the same time period)
So...when the Jews are running about in the Wilderness they were using the Torah as a guide to learn reading, writing, arithmetic, and history and of course the Law. Child and adult alike were getting an edumakateshun.
Considering what they once were treated like (property) and now getting the very best and most complicated technology on the planet....huge stretch.

Ok, iv heard that one. It takes it all metaphorically... U seem to have misunderstood parts of this but...
Whats your level of certainty?

 

[Cristo Rei]

Im hitting the sack now but im also interested in reading other interpretations to Satan being the prince of this world

 

[JohnDB]

Ok, iv heard that one. It takes it all metaphorically... U seem to have misunderstood parts of this but...
Whats your level of certainty?

It's not all metaphoric... well it is and isn't at the same time.
Hebrew is a metaphoric language and extremely not precise.
Even their alphabet is pictographic, symbolic and phonetic.
It's really not something that readily translates into English well when it's poetry.

Concepts are derived...and you can't go beyond what is written...but it is possible to understand correctly if you do the homework.

And there's no mention of Satan in the entire Torah.

There is a serpent. But that's not Satan. Stating that the Serpent is Satan is going beyond what is written.

The serpent is similar in nature to the symbolism of an owl today. We say that owls are wise...in this case the serpent is cunning and smart. And in Egyptian society including the Hebrews it was a symbol of Man's intelligence. Egypt was THE superpower in the world at the time. They had all the sciences and arts down pat. (Advanced for this time period) they also had all the money and groceries. (Joseph had helped them become this way)

On the headress of the Pharos there was a serpent usually carved into it as a symbol of his intelligence...(man centered of course)

So to a Hebrew student...this is a tale like brer rabbit talking to people. But saying more at the same time.

Satan doesn't come into play until Job or Chronicles or yet another of the prophecy letters.

 

[JohnDB]

U seem to have misunderstood parts of this but...
Whats your level of certainty?

I misunderstood parts of this?

Can you explain what you mean by that?

My certainty level is fairly high after doing a crash course of two years in length of approximately 60-80hr each week working on understanding Hebrew and ANE thought. I spent a fortune in books and rescources...my bookshelves are full and I was overjoyed at things when many rescources became available in electronic format... because I wouldn't be literally buried in rescource books at the table anymore.

PS.
I didn't use or read commentaries either.

 

[Brakelite]

I'll answer in red...

In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth...
That would be the beginning of time.
Do u take the the 7 days literally?
Yes.
If so then how could Satan already be tempting Eve on the 7th day? He wasn't. We aren't told how long, it could be days, it could be years
There was a big war in heaven and Lucifer was cast out along with 1/3 of the angels. A war typically goes for longer than 7 days, right? Yes, it would have gone for a long time because God is patient and would have given Lucifer and the angels plenty of time to change their minds. It wasn't a war using weapons as we know them. It was a war of ideas and words. Politics.

And the snake is Satan? So? Yes.
KJV Revelation 12:3-4, 7-9
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


How do u guys account for the light at the start. The most probable view for me, is that there was a chunk of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way it continues suggests it as well i think.

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep"

That could be a metaphor for the evil one. "The surface of the deep", i don't know what that could be but it conjures up evil i in my mind.
Good and evil have been battling since the beginning. The bible says that im fairly sure. And to begin His work God flushed out the darkness with his light. Its the classic metaphor of light and dark, good and evil.

So He separates light from dark and names them day and night. I think that is the same metaphor cos on the forth day thats when builds the sun, moon and the stars to
"govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness"
To govern things. This sounds like its literal i think.

Day 2 God didn't need the sun but after day 3 then he really does have to get it up there in order for the plants to grow.

Im just thinking out loud. There are heaps of interpretations of it and im not claiming to be infallible. On the balance of probability i lean towards this... the gap theory between verses 1 and 2 in Genesis 1 has been around for a long time. Such would explain the age of the earth in geological terms. We don't know however for sure, it's only assumption.

You?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth...

Do u take the the 7 days literally? If so then how could Satan already be tempting Eve on the 7th day? There was a big war in heaven and Lucifer was cast out along with 1/3 of the angels. A war typically goes for longer than 7 days, right? And the snake is Satan? So?

How do u guys account for the light at the start. The most probable view for me, is that there was a chunk of time after God made the heavens and earth. The way it continues suggests it as well i think.

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep"

That could be a metaphor for the evil one. "The surface of the deep", i don't know what that could be but it conjures up evil i in my mind.
Good and evil have been battling since the beginning. The bible says that im fairly sure. And to begin His work God flushed out the darkness with his light. Its the classic metaphor of light and dark, good and evil.

So He separates light from dark and names them day and night. I think that is the same metaphor cos on the forth day thats when builds the sun, moon and the stars to
"govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness"
To govern things. This sounds like its literal i think.

Day 2 God didn't need the sun but after day 3 then he really does have to get it up there in order for the plants to grow.

Im just thinking out loud. There are heaps of interpretations of it and im not claiming to be infallible. On the balance of probability i lean towards this...

You?

There is nothing in Scripture to say Satan fell by teh seventh day. It appears He didn't. We do not even know how long it was from the time God put Adam and Eve in the garden and the time they fell. It could have been centuries for all we know! But that time elapsed is a given. Adam had to name the animlas. They did tend teh garden and they did walk with God in the cool of the evening.

 

[JohnDB]

They did tend teh garden and they did walk with God in the cool of the evening.

"Cool of the day" is sunrise and not evening...missed the time slot.

But it's not uncommon for those who haven't been to Israel. You have to experience it yourself to really understand.

 

[Base12]

OP. If you are really interested in this topic, I recently made a film answering your questions...

 

[Enoch111]

This view is disputed, but the most likely thing that happened is that God made the earth in good order. His first governor was Lucifer.

This is pure conjecture. Please see the Ten Commandments for confirmation.

 

[Cristo Rei]

We do not even know how long it was from the time God put Adam and Eve in the garden and the time they fell. It could have been centuries for all we know!

Yes good point. I had pondered that as well