Incarnation

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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It is basic that Christ was the Last Adam and Second Man. It is clearly stated. You want it not to be so, so you develop some sort of theological mystery goop and out comes Christ the Second Adam. Which is nothing but a lie.

You disagree with Scripture not me. And you are too ....... to admit it.

Stranger

Actually I believe it's you who are disagreeing with scripture. I of course don't expect you to believe that. I know you honestly believe yourself to be correct. You however, haven't convinced me that it wasn't The Only Begotten Son of God who is the Word didn't become flesh. The scriptures show us that Jesus Christ who is The Only Begotten Son of God is the one who became flesh not God. It was The Only Begotten Son of God who died for me, not God.
 

Stranger

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The scriptures show me in the context of what I'm speaking of here there were only " two Adams". Saying Jesus was the second Adam in the context in which we are speaking isn't wrong. It seems to me that you don't like what the scriptures are saying, which is that they always say Jesus is God's son or Only Begotten Son. As I said the scriptures themselves never say Jesus is a God man. It is my understanding that God Only Begotten Son came in the likeness of the first Adam. The first Adam was not a God man. A God man was not what was lost, a perfect 100% human is what was lost and the perfect human children that would have been produce by them. God was buying back what was lost, God didn't need a God man to do that, he needed a 100% perfect human who remained sinless who remained without spot or blemish right up to his death so that mankind could be bought back. Jesus Christ is the random sacrifice after all.

Scriptures are clear. (1 Cor. 15:45-47) Jesus is the Second Man. Not the Second Adam. He is the Last Adam.

Jesus is the God/Man. Jesus came as a man because Adam was in the image of God. Scriptures show Jesus to be both God and Man.

I never said Adam was the God/Man. I said Jesus is.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Actually I believe it's you who are disagreeing with scripture. I of course don't expect you to believe that. I know you honestly believe yourself to be correct. You however, haven't convinced me that it wasn't The Only Begotten Son of God who is the Word didn't become flesh. The scriptures show us that Jesus Christ who is The Only Begotten Son of God is the one who became flesh not God. It was The Only Begotten Son of God who died for me, not God.

The Only Begotten Son of God did become flesh.

The Only Begotten Son of God was God the Son.

God the Son, Jesus Christ, died for you. (Acts 20:28)

Stranger
 

Harvest 1874

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The scriptures show me in the context of what I'm speaking of here there were only " two Adams". Saying Jesus was the second Adam in the context in which we are speaking isn't wrong. It seems to me that you don't like what the scriptures are saying, which is that they always say Jesus is God's son or Only Begotten Son. As I said the scriptures themselves never say Jesus is a God man. It is my understanding that God Only Begotten Son came in the likeness of the first Adam. The first Adam was not a God man. A God man was not what was lost, a perfect 100% human is what was lost and the perfect human children that would have been produce by them. God was buying back what was lost, God didn't need a God man to do that, he needed a 100% perfect human who remained sinless who remained without spot or blemish right up to his death so that mankind could be bought back. Jesus Christ is the random sacrifice after all.

Agreed,

God has declared that the “wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:23), therefore in no way can he free the sinner from this sentence, the penalty must be fully met and that in accordance with the law which he himself has laid down as he expressed to Israel, “Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth” (Exod 21:23-24). It was a perfect man who had sinned therefore in order to meet the claims of justice it must be a perfect man who must pay the penalty, nothing short of this would do. And so Christ taking the form of a bond-servant (Phil 2:7) became flesh NOT simply part flesh, for example 50% flesh and 50% spirit, nor 100% human and 100% spirit as our Trinitarian friends might suggest, No! This would not do he must of needs in order to fulfill divine justice become an actual 100% human being, howbeit a perfect human being, for as you recall it was a perfect human being who had sinned. God’s justice being very exact, very precise therefore can accept nothing less than the exact requirements of the law, an exact corresponding price, something of equal value nothing more, nothing less; to be otherwise would be unjust.
 

epostle

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The scriptures say that those who deny that the Only Begotten Son of God who is the "Word" became flesh is the Antichrist.
Scripture does not say that. Re-read 1 John 4, 2 John 1

I've always said it was the Only Begotten Son of God who is the "Word" that it was the Only Begotten Son who beçame flesh. It's those who believe in the Trinity that say the "Word" is The Only True God and that it was God who became flesh, therefore they deny that The Only Begotten Son who is the " Word" became flesh.
That is a non-sequitur fallacy. Trinitarians affirm "The Only Begotten Son who is the " Word" became flesh." See John 1:1.
Also the scriptures say he who denies The Father and his Son is the Antichrist.
Scripture makes it clear that that the spirit of anti-Christ denies the Incarnation.
Re-read 1 John 4, 2 John 1
The Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist, so why do you reject the Substantial Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, made abundantly clear in John 6?
For the same reasons you deny, reject, or dismiss the writings of the earliest Christians of the first 300 years?
For the same reasons you reject the authoritive proclamations of the Council of Nicaea, 325 A.D.???
So WHO is denying WHAT here???
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Scriptures are clear. (1 Cor. 15:45-47) Jesus is the Second Man. Not the Second Adam. He is the Last Adam.

Jesus is the God/Man. Jesus came as a man because Adam was in the image of God. Scriptures show Jesus to be both God and Man.

I never said Adam was the God/Man. I said Jesus is.

Stranger[/QUOTE\]
Scriptures are clear. (1 Cor. 15:45-47) Jesus is the Second Man. Not the Second Adam. He is the Last Adam.

Jesus is the God/Man. Jesus came as a man because Adam was in the image of God. Scriptures show Jesus to be both God and Man.

I never said Adam was the God/Man. I said Jesus is.

Stranger

The scriptures show Jesus to be The Only Begotten Son of God. The scriptures don't say Jesus to be a God/Man. You will not find any scriptures saying Jesus being a God/Man. It's what you believe the scriptures say but there is no scripture written saying Jesus to be a God/Man. There are plenty of scriptures written saying Jesus to be the Son of God, but no scripture is written saying Jesus to be a God/Man.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Agreed,

God has declared that the “wages of sin is death” (Rom 6:23), therefore in no way can he free the sinner from this sentence, the penalty must be fully met and that in accordance with the law which he himself has laid down as he expressed to Israel, “Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth” (Exod 21:23-24). It was a perfect man who had sinned therefore in order to meet the claims of justice it must be a perfect man who must pay the penalty, nothing short of this would do. And so Christ taking the form of a bond-servant (Phil 2:7) became flesh NOT simply part flesh, for example 50% flesh and 50% spirit, nor 100% human and 100% spirit as our Trinitarian friends might suggest, No! This would not do he must of needs in order to fulfill divine justice become an actual 100% human being, howbeit a perfect human being, for as you recall it was a perfect human being who had sinned. God’s justice being very exact, very precise therefore can accept nothing less than the exact requirements of the law, an exact corresponding price, something of equal value nothing more, nothing less; to be otherwise would be unjust.

I agree. Exodus 21:23-24 is speaking of the True God Jehovah exact justice. A 100% perfect human was lost a 100% perfect human needed to be sacrificed to get the exact justice The True God Jehovah required so the ransom could be paid to buy mankind back.
 

Waiting on him

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I agree. Exodus 21:23-24 is speaking of the True God Jehovah exact justice. A 100% perfect human was lost a 100% perfect human needed to be sacrificed to get the exact justice The True God Jehovah required so the ransom could be paid to buy mankind back.

John 5:18 KJV
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Tecarta Bible
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Scripture does not say that. Re-read 1 John 4, 2 John 1

That is a non-sequitur fallacy. Trinitarians affirm "The Only Begotten Son who is the " Word" became flesh." See John 1:1. Scripture makes it clear that that the spirit of anti-Christ denies the Incarnation.
Re-read 1 John 4, 2 John 1
The Church is an extension of the Incarnation, united by the Eucharist, so why do you reject the Substantial Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, made abundantly clear in John 6?
For the same reasons you deny, reject, or dismiss the writings of the earliest Christians of the first 300 years?
For the same reasons you reject the authoritive proclamations of the Council of Nicaea, 325 A.D.???
So WHO is denying WHAT here???

I know what 1 John 4 says, do you? It seems to me you don't. 1 John 4 tells us that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ coming in the flesh is an antichrist. This scripture doesn't say Jesus is God or that it was God who became flesh, this scripture simply states that he that denies Jesus Christ coming in the flesh is the antichrist. You will find no scripture written down that says, Jesus Christ is God. There are plenty of scriptures written down that say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We have scriptures written down that God sent his Son to us. So since the scriptures make it clear that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and since the scriptures show us that The Only True God Jehovah sent his Son to us then its obvious that Jesus Christ who is the Only Begotten Son of God is the "Word." It was the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh.
The Eucharist that you speak of is a Catholic thing. I don't believe what the Catholics say about the Eucharist. What the scriptures show, that is written down in the Bible is that Jesus instituted the Lords Evening Meal. When Jesus gave his disciple bread to eat he said this means my body, in other words, the bread represented His body. Jesus didn't literally give them human flesh to eat nor do the scriptures show that Jesus said that after they ate the bread that it would magically turn into Jesus human flesh. Same with the wine it simply represented his blood, it wasn't literally his blood nor do these scriptures show that Jesus said that the wine would literally turn into literal blood.

If you were to read all the words of the Apologists, you would find that while they deviated in some respects from the teachings of the Bible, none of them taught that the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit were coequal in eternity, power, position, and wisdom.

This is also true of other writers of the second and third centuries, such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Origen, Cyprian, and Novatian. While some came to equate the Father and the Son in certain respects, in other ways they viewed the Son as subordinate to God the Father. And none of them even speculated that the holy spirit was equal to the Father and the Son. For example, Origen (c. 185 to 254 C.E.) states that the Son of God is “the First-born of all creation” and that the Scriptures “know Him to be the most ancient of all the works of creation.”⁠31

Any objective reading of these early church authorities will show that Christendom’s Trinity doctrine was not in existence in their time. As The Church of the First Three Centuries says:

“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and prophetic or holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact. The doctrine of the Trinity, as explained by these Fathers, was essentially different from the modern doctrine. This we state as a fact as susceptible of proof as any fact in the history of human opinions.”⁠32

Actually, before Tertullian, the Trinity was not even mentioned. And Tertullian’s “heterodox” Trinity was much different from that believed today.

The Roman emperor Constantine played an important role at Nicea 325 CE. Viewing religious division as a threat to the unity of the empire, he summoned a council of bishops at Nicea in 325 C E the bishops didn't summon this meeting. After two months of debate, the unbaptized emperor decided in favor of the Trinitarian advocates. Reports the “Encyclopædia Britannica” (Vol. 6, p. 386): “Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the [Nicean] creed, many of them much against their inclination.” Dissenters were banished.

Not long after this, however, the dissenters at Nicea were back in Constantine’s favor and a chief advocate of Trinitarianism was banned. Later, the Trinitarians were favored again, by Emperor Theodosius, who closed the places of worship of those who would not conform.

Thus, pagan philosophy and decrees of political rulers helped to shape the doctrine of the Trinity and give it the popularity it has today.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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John 5:18 KJV
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Tecarta Bible

Jesus didn't in any way say that he was equal to God, he simply said that God was his Father. The Jews who were Pharisees that Jesus said were disciples of Satan were always believing Jesus to be saying something or was doing something that Jesus didn't say or do. Jesus also wasn't breaking the Sabbath just because the Pharisees said he was and Jesus wasn't saying He was equal to God just because these disbelieving Jews believed Jesus was making himself equal to God because He said God was his Father. Stop agreeing with the Pharisees. God had this scripture written down to show you how the Pharisees twisted what Jesus said so you wouldn't agree with such people.
 
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Stranger

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The scriptures show Jesus to be The Only Begotten Son of God. The scriptures don't say Jesus to be a God/Man. You will not find any scriptures saying Jesus being a God/Man. It's what you believe the scriptures say but there is no scripture written saying Jesus to be a God/Man. There are plenty of scriptures written saying Jesus to be the Son of God, but no scripture is written saying Jesus to be a God/Man.

Well isn't this something. I give you exact Scripture that says Jesus is the Last Adam and the Second Man. Yet you want to ignore it and call Him the Second Adam. Yet now you whine about not having exact Scripture saying Jesus is the God/Man.

Scripture teaches that Jesus Is Man. Scripture teaches that Jesus is God, as I showed you in (Acts 20:28) Conclusion: Jesus is the God/Man.

Stranger
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Well isn't this something. I give you exact Scripture that says Jesus is the Last Adam and the Second Man. Yet you want to ignore it and call Him the Second Adam. Yet now you whine about not having exact Scripture saying Jesus is the God/Man.

Scripture teaches that Jesus Is Man. Scripture teaches that Jesus is God, as I showed you in (Acts 20:28) Conclusion: Jesus is the God/Man.

Stranger

ACTS 20:28

The New World Translation here reads;

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]."

The word "Son" has been added, as the square brackets indicate.

The New American Standard Bible reads here:

"..to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own Blood."

This would mean, that, as it was Jesus who was the one who died upon the "stauros," and whom the scriptures tell us "poured out his blood,"(Mat.26:28; John 6:54; 1 John 1:7)he is here referred to as "God."

In the NWT Reference Edition(1984) p.1580 there is supplied an appendix that gives two other translations that do likewise, that is, translates as the New World Translation. They are:

1903, The Holy Bible in Modern Speech, by F.Fenton

1966, Todays English Version, American Bible Society.

There are more that could be cited, they being:

The Authentic New Testament(Schonfield, 1954)

The New Testament: A New Translation(W.Barclay, 1963)

The Translator's New Testament(1973)

New Revised Standard Version(1989)

Contemporary English Version(1995)

The New World Translation Reference Bible of 1984 appendix 6C also says:


There are those commentators who say how The New World Translation and others that translate Acts 20:28 as: Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd to congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]," to be wrong, and others who say it isn't translated wrong. I believe people should look up as much information on how and why different translators translate this scripture differently so that they can make an informed decision as to how they truly believe it should be translated. Other people have the right to disagree or agree with their choices.
 

Stranger

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ACTS 20:28

The New World Translation here reads;

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]."

The word "Son" has been added, as the square brackets indicate.

The New American Standard Bible reads here:

"..to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own Blood."

This would mean, that, as it was Jesus who was the one who died upon the "stauros," and whom the scriptures tell us "poured out his blood,"(Mat.26:28; John 6:54; 1 John 1:7)he is here referred to as "God."

In the NWT Reference Edition(1984) p.1580 there is supplied an appendix that gives two other translations that do likewise, that is, translates as the New World Translation. They are:

1903, The Holy Bible in Modern Speech, by F.Fenton

1966, Todays English Version, American Bible Society.

There are more that could be cited, they being:

The Authentic New Testament(Schonfield, 1954)

The New Testament: A New Translation(W.Barclay, 1963)

The Translator's New Testament(1973)

New Revised Standard Version(1989)

Contemporary English Version(1995)

The New World Translation Reference Bible of 1984 appendix 6C also says:


There are those commentators who say how The New World Translation and others that translate Acts 20:28 as: Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd to congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]," to be wrong, and others who say it isn't translated wrong. I believe people should look up as much information on how and why different translators translate this scripture differently so that they can make an informed decision as to how they truly believe it should be translated. Other people have the right to disagree or agree with their choices.

Well, if you're going to go through that much trouble to change what the Bible says, don't be asking for verses to prove anything.

Stranger
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Well, if you're going to go through that much trouble to change what the Bible says, don't be asking for verses to prove anything.

Stranger

the King James Bible changed some things so people who read that Bible shouldn't use that Bible to prove anything, going by your reasoning
 

Stranger

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the King James Bible changed some things so people who read that Bible shouldn't use that Bible to prove anything, going by your reasoning

Again, then just find bibles that agree with you.

The King James, New American Standard, New International, New King James all say 'with his own blood'. See how easy that is?

Stranger
 

Harvest 1874

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God did not die for our sins, He is immortal (death proof) and therefore cannot die; nevertheless justice demanded a life for a life. It was a perfect man who sinned therefore justice would require a perfect man as a substitute or corresponding price and so it was that He sent his only begotten Son into the world to die for our sins, HIS OWN BLOOD, even as Abraham was willing to sacrifice His own blood, His son Isaac.

So we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor (human perfection), that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb 2:9)

Why anyone needs to make this more complicated is beyond me.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Again, then just find bibles that agree with you.

The King James, New American Standard, New International, New King James all say 'with his own blood'. See how easy that is?

Stranger

I use the, " New World Translation" it isn't translated that way. I understand you use your Bible, just as I use mine. Just as you will continue using yours, I will continue using mine.
 

Nancy

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@BARNEY BRIGHT said:

"Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called a “God-man”"

Ever study the Genesis genealogy? Here is a 2 minute video, would love to hear what you think?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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@BARNEY BRIGHT said:

"Nowhere in the Bible is Jesus called a “God-man”"

Ever study the Genesis genealogy? Here is a 2 minute video, would love to hear what you think?

No, I'm not going to look at any video or videos which is man made stuff. I said there is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus is a God man. That's the truth. If there is a scripture that says Jesus Christ is a God man where's it at? I'm not talking about your interpretation of a scripture either, I'm talking about a scripture that says Jesus Christ to be a God man.
 
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