Incarnation

[epostle1]

Your "Dr." Franz Delitzsc at the most, studied Greek for 2 years, which is not even the equivalent of a B.A. The title "Dr." is phony. The rest of the scholastic team probably just finished high school. The claim they were biblical scholars is a joke.

Jesus SPOKE Aramaic, not Greek. No human language is divine, especially Greek. Your NWT has been exposed as a fraud. JW invents their own Bible, then uses it to disprove everybody else. That is a massive straw man fallacy.

Dr. James Moffatt was a modernist, and like Franz & Co., changed certain verses to suit his opinions.

Pre-existence occurs in infinity, so "before Abraham was born" is a rather lame description.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Your "Dr." Franz Delitzsc at the most, studied Greek for 2 years, which is not even the equivalent of a B.A. The title "Dr." is phony. The rest of the scholastic team probably just finished high school. The claim they were biblical scholars is a joke.

Jesus SPOKE Aramaic, not Greek. No human language is divine, especially Greek. Your NWT has been exposed as a fraud. JW invents their own Bible, then uses it to disprove everybody else. That is a massive straw man fallacy.

Dr. James Moffatt was a modernist, and like Franz & Co., changed certain verses to suit his opinions.

Pre-existence occurs in infinity, so "before Abraham was born" is a rather lame description.

Yes the modern day Pharisees, like those in the past who judged Jesus and his Apostles of not having gone to thier theological schools when they were unlettered men. The fact you and others judge as you do speaks very well of you. Oh, it's impossible for God to use his Holy Spirit to teach people if they didn't go to the theological schools and have the authority that those people in those schools say they must have. You and others who believe in the God-Man doctrine will always judge this way as long as anyone disagree with you, yes those like you judge Jesus Christ and his Apostles the same as the Pharisees did back in that time. You honestly think I can't see who you and those who agree with you choose to be with all your judging and insults.

 

[Harvest 1874]

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD = SON OF GOD = SON OF MAN = GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH = THE MIGHTY GOD, = ETC ...

And we could list all the others names and titles of Christ.

So do you believe that the only begotten Son of God is indeed GOD (THEOS)?

We believe he is a god (Theos, a mighty one), but not The God (Ho Theos, the Almighty Himself).

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD = SON OF GOD = SON OF MAN = GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH = THE MIGHTY GOD, = ETC ...

And we could list all the others names and titles of Christ.

So do you believe that the only begotten Son of God is indeed GOD (THEOS)?

Christ Jesus perfectly represented his Father, doing the works of his Father and speaking, not of his own originality, but the words of his Father. (Joh 10:37, 38; 12:50;14:10, 11, 24) That is why Jesus could say, “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.”—Joh 14:9.
No I don't believe Jesus to be God, I believe him to the only begotten Son of God just as the scriptures say he is. That's what is written in the scriptures, your God-Man Doctrine is nowhere written in the scriptures, it's a human being or an organization of human beings interpretation of scripture.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We believe he is a god (Theos, a mighty one), but not The God (Ho Theos, the Almighty Himself).

Wow.

 

[APAK]

You should also read these verses to understand what the above means: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins...Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am... And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (John 8:24,58; Exod 3:14)

You still have not figured out that the Son of God is I AM = God. But it is right there before the whole world. And those who will not believe this shall die in their sins.

Enoch, stop being ignorant and read your Bible with the guidance of the spirit..

Here we go again, another trinity lover quoting verses in defense of a pagan idol, that they don’t understand and deliberately not supplying any substance.

This is really what you believe?

Incidentally I agree with BB in his post of this subject although with one exception. Jesus was in the mind of YWHW and did not exist until his birth about 4 BC.

John 8:24b
For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (KJV).

Trinitarians love to intimidate the meaning of the gospel by inferring in this verse for ‘he,’ the word ‘God.’ Thus they sometimes read this verse as:

For if ye believe not that I am he (God), ye shall die in your sins. (KJV). This is a blatant lie and distorts the gospel purpose.

The actual purpose of the gospel is written in verse John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is (NOT GOD) the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

if one chooses to not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, he will die in his sins.,,them go for it!

The NIV does a great job of John 8:24b:

“If you do not believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” (NIV)

And this thought is congruent with

John 13:19 when Jesus said to disciples at the last supper, “I am telling you this before it [his betrayal] happens so that when it does happen you will believe that I am he.”

There is no God Almighty reference here I the least. It would also be very illogical and nonsensical.

Now to rediscover the truth about John 8:58b again

“Before Abraham was, I am.” (KJV)

Saying “I am” does not make a person God Almighty. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement or usage of “I am.”

Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in many places in their translation, and this one here is a common one.

Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.

Ego eimi [“I am”] is a statement denoting in the strongest terms, it is me and no one else, It is not a special name for YWHW that was invented by Trinitarians.

Here are more examples where ‘ego eimi is used…

“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.).

At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25). No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.” The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God Almighty.

See how ridiculous and foolish these Trinitarians can be? They need to believe in the one and only YWHW and the one son of God, and not trying keep forcing a square in a round and smaller hole.

The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.

Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become ”or” I will be what I will be.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[epostle1]

Yes the modern day Pharisees, like those in the past who judged Jesus and his Apostles of not having gone to thier theological schools when they were unlettered men. The fact you and others judge as you do speaks very well of you. Oh, it's impossible for God to use his Holy Spirit to teach people if they didn't go to the theological schools and have the authority that those people in those schools say they must have. You and others who believe in the God-Man doctrine will always judge this way as long as anyone disagree with you, yes those like you judge Jesus Christ and his Apostles the same as the Pharisees did back in that time. You honestly think I can't see who you and those who agree with you choose to be with all your judging and insults.

Hmm...Jesus was a Rabbi. He astonished the most learned men in Jerusalem as a young teenager.(a.k.a. The Finding of Jesus in the Temple.) He was judged by the Pharisees because He had the audacity to claim to be the Son of God. That's why they killed Him.
John 10:34-36 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be set aside- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Then He taught the meaning of Psalm 82:6 and that shut them up. He always taught scripture, He never let scripture speak for itself.

Upon seeing the risen Christ, the doubting apostle Thomas exclaimed: “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

“Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and Our Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13)

Saint Paul is referring here to the second coming of Christ in “glory,” in contradistinction to His first coming in humility and meekness. The “great God” and “our Savior” are both predicated to the same Person, Jesus Christ.

And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal.” (1 John 5:20)

Saint John’s two epistles and the introduction of the first chapter of his gospel (the last of his writings chronologically) were written to refute the incredulous gnostics who, thinking to honor Christ as a mere man, they dissolved Him of His divinity, thus meriting for themselves this severe condemnation from the beloved apostle: “And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus is not of God: and this is Antichrist …” (1 John 4:3)

In chapter five of his epistle given above Saint John makes use of the demonstrative pronoun “this” in reference to its antecedent “true Son.” God and “life eternal” are interchangeable. Thus we find at the start of the same letter the concept “life eternal” supposited for Son of God: “We declare unto you the life eternal which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us” (1 John 1:2)

Jesus = Son of God = life eternal = true God

“From whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is over all things God blessed forever.” (Romans 9:5)

“In this we have known the charity of God, because He hath laid down his life for us …” (1 John 3:16)

It is Christ then, Who is “over all,” and Christ Who is “God blessed forever.” Whose love was made known by Our Lord’s sacrificial death? God’s love, says Saint John. Therefore God laid down His life for us. God was hung upon the cross at Calvary. Could the two apostles have made themselves more clear?

I have miles more. In order to sustain radically novel teachings, it is imperative to have a radically altered Bible. That's why arguing with you using scripture is a waste of time.

 

[epostle1]

No I don't believe Jesus to be God, I believe him to the only begotten Son of God just as the scriptures say he is. .

No, just as the heretic Arius says he is.
Your use of the phrase "only begotten Son of God" implies Jesus was CONCEIVED of the Father. Scripture doesn't say it the way you sloganize it. I'll give you a free lesson from my esteemed Protestant bretheren. You can ignore it at your peril.

It is important to note that the phrase “only begotten” in John 3:16 is not the same Greek word that appears in Acts 13:3; Hebrews 1:5 or 5:5. The phrase “only begotten” comes from the Greek word MONOGENES which means that Jesus is the unique or “one and only” Son. MONOGENES occurs only five times in the New Testament: John 1:14; 3:16, 18; Hebrews 11:17 and 1 John 4:9. In a question titled “Why was Jesus called the ‘Son of God’?” we discover that the phrase “Son of God” is defined by Jesus and it means “God.”

When we come to the word “begotten” in Psalm 2:7, we enter into a different arena of meaning. Here is Psalm 2:7,

I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, “You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.” Ps. 2:7 (NASB)

This Old Testament passage is quoted in Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5.

The Hebrew for “begotten” is YALAD and the lexical meaning is “to bear, beget, or bring forth.” The three New Testament passages help us understand how it should be understood in Psalm 2. For example, in Acts 13:30-34 we read:

But God raised Him from the dead; and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people. And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, “YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”” As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: “I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.”

Here we discover that Psalm 2:7 was a prophecy that Jesus would return to life. That is, He would be resurrected. He was “begotten” or was “brought forth” (notice that is an acceptable meaning of the Hebrew word) from the grave.

The root Greek word is GINOMAI and the tense of the word used here is a perfect active meaning that it is completed action in the past and had continuing effect to the time Acts 13:33 was written. That is, Jesus’ resurrection was so certain that it was spoken of as already having occurred. Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5 do not provide the explanation of Psalm 2:7 that is given in Acts 13:33 but merely quote Psalm 2:7. Only Acts 13:33 provides the explanation.

Also note that GINOMAI is translated as “begotten” only four times in the New Testament: Acts 13:33; Philemon 10, Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5. So there are two key Greek words that are sometimes translated as “begotten” in the New Testament. This can be confusing, and it is a cause of error for those in many cults.
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/what-does-begotten-mean-in-psalms-27/

Your catch all mantra to clinch the Arian heresy doesn't work.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hmm...Jesus was a Rabbi. He astonished the most learned men in Jerusalem as a young teenager.(a.k.a. The Finding of Jesus in the Temple.) He was judged by the Pharisees because He had the audacity to claim to be the Son of God. That's why they killed Him.
John 10:34-36 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be set aside- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Then He taught the meaning of Psalm 82:6 and that shut them up. He always taught scripture, He never let scripture speak for itself.

Upon seeing the risen Christ, the doubting apostle Thomas exclaimed: “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

“Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and Our Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13)

Saint Paul is referring here to the second coming of Christ in “glory,” in contradistinction to His first coming in humility and meekness. The “great God” and “our Savior” are both predicated to the same Person, Jesus Christ.

And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal.” (1 John 5:20)

Saint John’s two epistles and the introduction of the first chapter of his gospel (the last of his writings chronologically) were written to refute the incredulous gnostics who, thinking to honor Christ as a mere man, they dissolved Him of His divinity, thus meriting for themselves this severe condemnation from the beloved apostle: “And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus is not of God: and this is Antichrist …” (1 John 4:3)

In chapter five of his epistle given above Saint John makes use of the demonstrative pronoun “this” in reference to its antecedent “true Son.” God and “life eternal” are interchangeable. Thus we find at the start of the same letter the concept “life eternal” supposited for Son of God: “We declare unto you the life eternal which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us” (1 John 1:2)

Jesus = Son of God = life eternal = true God

“From whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is over all things God blessed forever.” (Romans 9:5)

“In this we have known the charity of God, because He hath laid down his life for us …” (1 John 3:16)

It is Christ then, Who is “over all,” and Christ Who is “God blessed forever.” Whose love was made known by Our Lord’s sacrificial death? God’s love, says Saint John. Therefore God laid down His life for us. God was hung upon the cross at Calvary. Could the two apostles have made themselves more clear?

I have miles more. In order to sustain radically novel teachings, it is imperative to have a radically altered Bible. That's why arguing with you using scripture is a waste of time.

Neither Jesus nor most of his disciples were educated in the rabbinical schools.—John 7:14, 15; Acts 4:13; 22:3

This is one of the reasons the Pharisees believed no Israelite should listen to Jesus or his followers.

You are modern day Pharisees because if anyone disagrees with those who come from whatever theological school of thought you agree with even though they are just imperfect people no matter what theological schools they come from, you judge these people harshly and insult them. I can understand the disagreeing part, everyone has the right to disagree. However I will always be against those who judge harhly and insult just because they disagree with you. You can disagree without judging or insulting anyone, I think you just don't want to stop judging harshly or insulting, and what, you think that is how Jesus Christ taught his disciples to be to people. It is more likely that he would want you to see people as potential brothers and sisters since he did sacrifice his human life for everyone.

 

[epostle1]

Three Secret Strategies of Satan
to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM (a Hermit of St. Michael) Satan has a secret. It is the secret about his three primary strategies to destroy us. If Satan can convince our culture to adopt the philosophy precipitated by these secret strategies he can brainwash our children, disrupt our families, manipulate our culture, and bring apostasy within the Church. All the problems that we see today in society and in our church can be traced to these three fundamental strategies. It is the basis of the politically correct movement and of the heresy of individualism.

These strategies are the fuel that powers feminism, the engine that drives liberalism, and the vehicle of the postmodern worldview that dominates our world today and that contaminates the Church. These three secret strategies are:
• All opinions are equal
• Never judge anyone
• Never step on toes

No one escapes the sinister tentacles of these devilish doctrines; we are all contaminated by these strategies—every one of us. The question is not whether we are immune from these strategies, for we are not; it is not whether we are indeed contaminated by them, because we are; the only question is what are we going to do about it? How are we to exorcise the contamination of this pervasive worldview from our minds? This essay will present the first step to help the reader to recognize these strategies in order to avoid Satan’s lies.
(I'll focus on "never judge anyone, you can read the whole thing from the link provided.)

Never Judge Anyone As just stated above, error has no dignity except as a possible motivator to lead us to truth. But if we are not confronted in our error, how can we be motivated to move toward truth? St. Paul instructs us to judge: —2 Timothy 4:2-4

We are to judge the teaching of teachers, the opinions of people, the attitudes and behaviors of people. If we don’t, then we allow sin and Satan to exploit the weak and ignorant and vulnerable with his lies. We are to preach the Truth and rebuke those who assert error—not in an attitude of rock throwing or some sort of controlling self-righteousness, but in a loving attitude of helping the person return to God (2 Timothy 4:2). We are our brothers’ keepers (ref., Mark 12:31; Luke 10:25-37; Matthew 7:12; 18:23-35; Luke 6:31). We have a responsibility to warn and admonish our brethren in the faith, just as we have a responsibility to our blood-brothers to warn them when they go astray because we love them. St. Paul to the Romans exhorted good Catholics to instruct one another (Romans 15:14). To instruct someone necessarily means to evaluate (another word for judge) the one to whom instruction is given.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states (No 1868): “… we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: by (among several actions on our part) not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so.”

We cannot “disclose” a sin without first assessing (yet another word for judging) that the sin is in fact there in the first place. In addition, one of the traditional seven Spiritual Works of Mercy is to “Admonish the sinner.” Again, we cannot admonish that which we refuse to recognize in the sinner. We must make an assessment (judgment) that the person is sinning and thus “needs” admonishment. All of this sometimes requires “tough love”.

Our model in this tough love is no less that Jesus Himself (who, contrary to popular opinion was not a 60’s flower child with flowers in his hair repeating a mantra of peace and love). Jesus preached a demanding love, a love so demanding that in some cases it would rip apart families:—Matthew 10:34-38

Truth cannot be compromised—even if it makes enemies of our relatives. Some people will not accept the truth and will hate those who preach it. Truth demands judgment; that is, truth demands we see things truthfully and to call things what they are. If we see sin or error, we must call it for what it is. The Bible is filled with passages talking about how we are to judge others. Before listing some of those, first let us look at the kind of judgment we are not to do.

The most famous of the several “do not judge” passages:Matthew 7:1-3 In this passage we see three kinds of judgment we are not to do:
http://saint-mike.org/warfare/library/wp-content/docs/secret.pdf

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Three Secret Strategies of Satan
to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church by Bro. Ignatius Mary, OLSM (a Hermit of St. Michael) Satan has a secret. It is the secret about his three primary strategies to destroy us. If Satan can convince our culture to adopt the philosophy precipitated by these secret strategies he can brainwash our children, disrupt our families, manipulate our culture, and bring apostasy within the Church. All the problems that we see today in society and in our church can be traced to these three fundamental strategies. It is the basis of the politically correct movement and of the heresy of individualism.

These strategies are the fuel that powers feminism, the engine that drives liberalism, and the vehicle of the postmodern worldview that dominates our world today and that contaminates the Church. These three secret strategies are:
• All opinions are equal
• Never judge anyone
• Never step on toes

No one escapes the sinister tentacles of these devilish doctrines; we are all contaminated by these strategies—every one of us. The question is not whether we are immune from these strategies, for we are not; it is not whether we are indeed contaminated by them, because we are; the only question is what are we going to do about it? How are we to exorcise the contamination of this pervasive worldview from our minds? This essay will present the first step to help the reader to recognize these strategies in order to avoid Satan’s lies.
(I'll focus on "never judge anyone, you can read the whole thing from the link provided.)

Never Judge Anyone As just stated above, error has no dignity except as a possible motivator to lead us to truth. But if we are not confronted in our error, how can we be motivated to move toward truth? St. Paul instructs us to judge: —2 Timothy 4:2-4

We are to judge the teaching of teachers, the opinions of people, the attitudes and behaviors of people. If we don’t, then we allow sin and Satan to exploit the weak and ignorant and vulnerable with his lies. We are to preach the Truth and rebuke those who assert error—not in an attitude of rock throwing or some sort of controlling self-righteousness, but in a loving attitude of helping the person return to God (2 Timothy 4:2). We are our brothers’ keepers (ref., Mark 12:31; Luke 10:25-37; Matthew 7:12; 18:23-35; Luke 6:31). We have a responsibility to warn and admonish our brethren in the faith, just as we have a responsibility to our blood-brothers to warn them when they go astray because we love them. St. Paul to the Romans exhorted good Catholics to instruct one another (Romans 15:14). To instruct someone necessarily means to evaluate (another word for judge) the one to whom instruction is given.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states (No 1868): “… we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them: by (among several actions on our part) not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so.”

We cannot “disclose” a sin without first assessing (yet another word for judging) that the sin is in fact there in the first place. In addition, one of the traditional seven Spiritual Works of Mercy is to “Admonish the sinner.” Again, we cannot admonish that which we refuse to recognize in the sinner. We must make an assessment (judgment) that the person is sinning and thus “needs” admonishment. All of this sometimes requires “tough love”.

Our model in this tough love is no less that Jesus Himself (who, contrary to popular opinion was not a 60’s flower child with flowers in his hair repeating a mantra of peace and love). Jesus preached a demanding love, a love so demanding that in some cases it would rip apart families:—Matthew 10:34-38

Truth cannot be compromised—even if it makes enemies of our relatives. Some people will not accept the truth and will hate those who preach it. Truth demands judgment; that is, truth demands we see things truthfully and to call things what they are. If we see sin or error, we must call it for what it is. The Bible is filled with passages talking about how we are to judge others. Before listing some of those, first let us look at the kind of judgment we are not to do.

The most famous of the several “do not judge” passages:Matthew 7:1-3 In this passage we see three kinds of judgment we are not to do:
http://saint-mike.org/warfare/library/wp-content/docs/secret.pdf

Everything you just said the scriptures are talking about those who are within the church, meaning those who are said to be Christian. Those who have already baptized members of whatever church you belong to. The scriptures are not talking about those outside the church, those who are not Christian. The Theologians and Scholars and members of the Church who believe in the Trinity Doctrine all say if you don't believe the Trinity Doctrine then your not a Christian. If I'm not a Christian then I'm not your brother and I'm not in the whatever Church you belong to, which means you are not supposed to be judging me, insulting me, rebuking me. Preaching to people about Jehovah God, his Only-Begotten Son Jesus Christ, and Jehovah God Kingdom who he has made his Only- Begotten Son king of, yes you preach that, but if you preach it in a judgmental way and insult people when they don't agree with you to those you consider not Christians you only show them an arrogant man who is self-righteous and thinks he's infallible.

 

[epostle1]

Calm down. I come across as harsh sometimes to get through thick walls. I am not an apologist, it's a hobby for me. I make mistakes. I think it's wrong to say a person is in error without proof. I gave proof. You should expect a lot of resistance coming in to a Christian forum. It's between you and God, not you and me. Never mind "church this, doctrine that", you are a human being and worth correcting.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Enoch, stop being ignorant and read your Bible with the guidance of the spirit..

Here we go again, another trinity lover quoting verses in defense of a pagan idol, that they don’t understand and deliberately not supplying any substance.

This is really what you believe?

Incidentally I agree with BB in his post of this subject although with one exception. Jesus was in the mind of YWHW and did not exist until his birth about 4 BC.

John 8:24b
For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (KJV).

Trinitarians love to intimidate the meaning of the gospel by inferring in this verse for ‘he,’ the word ‘God.’ Thus they sometimes read this verse as:

For if ye believe not that I am he (God), ye shall die in your sins. (KJV). This is a blatant lie and distorts the gospel purpose.

The actual purpose of the gospel is written in verse John 20:31

“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is (NOT GOD) the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

if one chooses to not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, he will die in his sins.,,them go for it!

The NIV does a great job of John 8:24b:

“If you do not believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” (NIV)

And this thought is congruent with

John 13:19 when Jesus said to disciples at the last supper, “I am telling you this before it [his betrayal] happens so that when it does happen you will believe that I am he.”

There is no God Almighty reference here I the least. It would also be very illogical and nonsensical.

Now to rediscover the truth about John 8:58b again

“Before Abraham was, I am.” (KJV)

Saying “I am” does not make a person God Almighty. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement or usage of “I am.”

Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in many places in their translation, and this one here is a common one.

Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God.

Ego eimi [“I am”] is a statement denoting in the strongest terms, it is me and no one else, It is not a special name for YWHW that was invented by Trinitarians.

Here are more examples where ‘ego eimi is used…

“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.).

At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25). No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.” The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God Almighty.

See how ridiculous and foolish these Trinitarians can be? They need to believe in the one and only YWHW and the one son of God, and not trying keep forcing a square in a round and smaller hole.

The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man.

Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become ”or” I will be what I will be.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

Bless you,

APAK

We agree with everything said here accept for the part about our Lord's pre-humn existence, we believe that he did indeed possess a body, a physical form and that it was a glorious spiritual body, not as glorious as that which he now has, but still a body nonetheless, and it was this body that he surrendered in order to become a man, flesh and blood, that he might be a ransom (anti-lutron or corresponding price) for mankind.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sorry for using the word 'stupid'. I argue and debate believers and atheists and these sometimes get pretty heated and words like this are tossed around frequently. Then when moving to another post, sometimes I forget to turn down the tone.

I’ve thought a lot about your reply here. “these get pretty heated” and I ask you to consider why they are heated and then spill over to others? Is it not feeding the flesh and what it wants? Isn’t this a clear sign of “these get pretty heated” that these words might be coming from a bad place? I’m not being ugly toward you; I’m only asking you to really consider why you love to fight and have conflict so much. Where does it come from?

 

[bbyrd009]

 

[Stranger]

I’ve thought a lot about your reply here. “these get pretty heated” and I ask you to consider why they are heated and then spill over to others? Is it not feeding the flesh and what it wants? Isn’t this a clear sign of “these get pretty heated” that these words might be coming from a bad place? I’m not being ugly toward you; I’m only asking you to really consider why you love to fight and have conflict so much. Where does it come from?

Well, it is the nature of debate to have conflict. So if one wants to enter a debate he needs to know his subject and he needs to believe that what he is saying is true. Thus the deck is stacked for conflict when a debate begins. Of course it will vary depending on the person you are debating and the subject matter. Yes it is easy in such situations to get in the flesh, which I am sure I have done at times. But that doesn't mean everytime I come across as hard or rough, that I am in the flesh. Sometimes that is needed.

Of course if I didn't like it, I wouldn't do it. Some things are worth fighting for.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes it is easy in such situations to get in the flesh, which I am sure I have done at times.

I’m no different. It happens here too.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Jesus Christ never was the second Adam. He is always the Last Adam. I guess your whole theology just went down the toilet.

Stranger

The scriptures show me in the context of what I'm speaking of here there were only " two Adams". Saying Jesus was the second Adam in the context in which we are speaking isn't wrong. It seems to me that you don't like what the scriptures are saying, which is that they always say Jesus is God's son or Only Begotten Son. As I said the scriptures themselves never say Jesus is a God man. It is my understanding that God Only Begotten Son came in the likeness of the first Adam. The first Adam was not a God man. A God man was not what was lost, a perfect 100% human is what was lost and the perfect human children that would have been produce by them. God was buying back what was lost, God didn't need a God man to do that, he needed a 100% perfect human who remained sinless who remained without spot or blemish right up to his death so that mankind could be bought back. Jesus Christ is the random sacrifice after all.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

In St. John's letters (1 John 4, 2 John 1), he tells us that the spirit of the Antichrist denies the Incarnation (the Son of God becoming man) and thereby also the Trinity (the Father and the Spirit, too). This is the spirit of the Antichrist. We got your number. Don't call us, we'll call you.

The scriptures say that those who deny that the Only Begotten Son of God who is the "Word" became flesh is the Antichrist. I've always said it was the Only Begotten Son of God who is the "Word" that it was the Only Begotten Son who beçame flesh. It's those who believe in the
Trinity that say the "Word" is The Only True God and that it was God who became flesh, therefore they deny that The Only Begotten Son who is the " Word" became flesh. Also the scriptures say he who denies The Father and his Son is the Antichrist.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If you can't get the basics down, why should anyone believe your theology? And you have proved you don't have the basics down. Answer: they shouldn't.

I've got the basics, I'll never deny Jesus Christ to be the Only Begotten Son of God, that it was The Only Begotten Son of God who died for me.

Stranger