Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

[Hidden In Him]

One thing about this . . . I do not believe that the power of God corrupts us.

People are tempted to sin because they are enticed by lusts.

Is it the new creation that is enticed by sin? Or the old?

Not the new creation, LoL. The new creation when it couldn't handle greater temptation, and ended up in the gutter because it wasn't fully consecrated unto God, LoL.

Marks, believers fall for temptation all the time. What makes you think it somehow becomes different when they receive greater gifts?

In saying that God only entrusts His power to those whom He deems fit, because some have been corrupted because they couldn't handle it, you are saying that God "deems fit" some who will prove "they could not handle the temptations" that came with it?

Think of it this way. A father may not give a 14 year old who has never driven before the keys to a car, and say, "Take off! Drive to the next city and back!" But if he thinks his son or daughter might be able to handle at least getting behind the wheel a little, he may take him to an empty parking lot and have him or her drive around in circles some to get used to it. The father wants the child to learn how to drive, so he will give him or her an opportunity to do a little of it. But does that mean the child is guaranteed not to make any mistakes just because the father deems the child ready to drive around a parking lot? No. The child may not realize how sensitive the gas pedal is, and end up wrapping it around a concrete post, LoL. He may not see a car coming, turn in front of it, and end up causing an accident. These are things that come with learning, and our God wants us to grow in these things. Unfortunately, most of us are not even in the place where He can trust us to take a spin around the block yet, so to speak.

When we talk about the 'charisma' that is from God, I think we are talking about the power that is from God out of His goodness towards us, that is the power for this creation to exist, the power for us to be reborn, power to walk daily in holiness, power to do works of righteousness, power to transcend the natural order of things in special gifts and works and revelation.

I think this power is central to being a new creation, and living as such. And I think that if it's either me or God who is holding me back from attaining to more, it's got to be me!

Ok, now don't take this badly. It's not meant as a criticism, but just something I want you to notice. Your words above reveal that your mind is still centered largely around yourself and attaining things in God, and that is not what the power of God is really given to believers for. It is given so that they might reach the lost, by confirming the word with signs and wonders following. Certainly some of the gifts are for edifying the church, but many are for ministry to the unsaved, and if you don't take that into account, you may not see the need for the greater gifts and the principles involved. Supernatural gifts like the power to heal the sick, raise the dead, etc. give one the power of INFLUENCE, and here is where the temptation comes in, and at no time will God ever simply obliterate our desires to sin. Our freewill remains fully intact, and while we may be able to handle temptations on one level, we may not be able to handle far greater temptations on another.

 

[marks]

Your words above reveal that your mind is still centered largely around yourself and attaining things in God,

I hope that you don't take this the wrong way . . . but if you continue to make these kinds of assumptions about me . . . we're just not going to get far.

I'm really curious.

What in this I wrote says such?

When we talk about the 'charisma' that is from God, I think we are talking about the power that is from God out of His goodness towards us, that is the power for this creation to exist, the power for us to be reborn, power to walk daily in holiness, power to do works of righteousness, power to transcend the natural order of things in special gifts and works and revelation.

I think this power is central to being a new creation, and living as such. And I think that if it's either me or God who is holding me back from attaining to more, it's got to be me!

You are realizing I didn't specify what we attain to? So that you filled in that it must be about me, or must be limited. Right?

Do you see how this adds something I didn't say, and then turns the conversation towards the person instead of the topic? Once again?

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but can't we keep this to the topic?

Do you not wish to attain to the greatest fruitfulness and holiness in your life that you can? Will this not mean towards saved and unsaved, whomever God would touch through each of us?

It's like we go along in our conversation, and you let me know in some way or another that you assume me to be unspiritual in some way or another, and I don't get it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not the new creation, LoL. The new creation when it couldn't handle greater temptation, and ended up in the gutter because it wasn't fully consecrated unto God, LoL.

This doesn't seem to make sense.

Was it the new creation or the old creation that is enticed by lust to sin?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I hope that you don't take this the wrong way . . . but if you continue to make these kinds of assumptions about me . . . we're just not going to get far.

Well I'm not really making assumptions. I was just responding to your words is all. There was a lot of "me" and "goodness towards us" and "power for us to be reborn" is all. Don't sweat it. It's not an insult. Just an observation.

This doesn't seem to make sense.

Was it the new creation or the old creation that is enticed by lust to sin?

You keep making me laugh : )

Marks, it is the old nature, the old man.

Maybe we should examine a passage together and see how you interpret it.
How do you interpret the following passage concerning the old man. Do you interpret these things as already having been accomplished in the believer's life, or something they as new creations still need to see worked out in their lives?

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conduct the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[marks]

Well I'm not really making assumptions. I was just responding to your words is all. There was a lot of "me" and "goodness towards us" and "power for us to be reborn" is all. Don't sweat it. It's not an insult. Just an observation.

Your assumption is that what I want to attain to is for myself.

God's power is directed towards us to accomplish both in us and through us to others. This isn't about whether I feel some slight, these assumptioms color how you read my words, and therefore the effectiveness of my communication.

Marks, it is the old nature, the old man.

That's right.

The old nature is tempted to sin.

Marks, believers fall for temptation all the time. What makes you think it somehow becomes different when they receive greater gifts?

It's not the gift.

The old nature is tempted by it's lusts. It will lust after whatever it is.

OK. Think of Simon . . . he's like the old man, watching Peter, the new man. The Holy Spirit baptizes those whom Simon is watching, and he thinks . . . I want this power! I want this fame! But will it do him any good? Of course not! Because it doesn't work that way.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Again, where this reads, God forbid, the Greek is



No may it be becoming . . . It doesn't become that . . . it doesn't work that way . . . That is to say, being under Grace instead of being under Law does not become that we shall be sinning.

The Law works "the motions of sin" in our members, but Grace does not. We truly need to understand the power God has given to us in making us a new creation. The Grace - charisma - of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Maybe we should examine a passage together and see how you interpret it.

I thought we were doing that with Romans 6?

 

[marks]

22 That ye put off concerning the former conduct the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

There is a old man, that is corrupt, and a new man, that is not. We're to wear the new man, not the old, by changing our thinking.

OK, that's somewhat simplistic, but still . . .

 

[Hidden In Him]

There is a old man, that is corrupt, and a new man, that is not. We're to wear the new man, not the old, by changing our thinking.

It says we are to put on the new man, and he was saying this to born again believers. That implies that they could be born again and still have occasions where they were not putting Him on. And according to Paul, not putting Him on would result in their continuing to not put away lying, not speak truth with their neighbors, give place to the devil, let corrupt communication proceed out of their mouths, etc.

Simply being a new creation, even if granted exceedingly great gifts and revelation, is still no guarantee of not becoming tempted and giving oneself up to temptation and sinning. I think you agree with this, only your terminology sometimes seems to betray it, hence I try to clarify your position on things.

 

[marks]

It says we are to put on the new man, and he was saying this to born again believers. That implies that they could be born again and still have occasions where they were not putting Him on. And according to Paul, not putting Him on would result in their continuing to not put away lying, not speak truth with their neighbors, give place to the devil, let corrupt communication proceed out of their mouths, etc.

Simply being a new creation, even if granted exceedingly great gifts and revelation, is still no guarantee of not becoming tempted and giving oneself up temptation and sinning. I think you agree with this, only your terminology sometimes seems to betray it, hence I try to clarify your position on things.

Yes. Failing to live the new life will default back to the old life.

You were talking about God holding back gifts from some, because some He gives those gifts to fall because of them.

But having spiritual gifts or not, it's a separate matter. It's about whether or not I'm focused on God. I can have little power or great power, it doesn't matter. If I get my focus off God and onto me, sin results. With or without gifts.

But I find that God's grace is power to not sin. And God assures us that He doesn't test us in any way that we are not able to endure. That includes the temptations arising out of the lusts of the flesh.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

And God assures us that He doesn't test us in any way that we are not able to endure.

Um... I think you are quoting the verse that says He always provides a way of escape. That's a different thing than saying He would not give us a gift unless we were guaranteed not to fall into temptation as a result of it. Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[marks]

That's a different thing than saying He would not give us a gift unless we were guaranteed not to fall into temptation as a result of it. Or am I misunderstanding you?

I'm sorry, what?

No, I'm not saying that spiritual gifts guarantee we will not sin. That's an entirely separate matter. It think you were connecting these thoughts, that God holds back the greater gifts to give to the more spiritual lest they become corrupted by the power and fall into sin.

I don't think it works that way. We may fall into sin, but it would be this or that. If you are going to sin, at least in my understanding, you're going to sin anyway.

To the pure, all things are pure.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Do you interpret these things as already having been accomplished in the believer's life, or something they as new creations still need to see worked out in their lives?

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conduct the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Just follow the verb tenses. That's what I do.

Vss 20-21, hopefully accomplished.
Vss 22-24A, to be accomplished.
Vs 24B, already accomplished.
Vss 25-30A, to be accomplished.
Vs 30B, already accomplished.
Vss 31-32A, to be accomplished.
Vs 32B, already accomplished.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

It think you were connecting these thoughts, that God holds back the greater gifts to give to the more spiritual lest they become corrupted by the power and fall into sin.

Yes, although I am saying the more mature in Christ, not more "spiritual." That would be ok if taken properly, but it could be misconstrued to mean more "holier than thou." That would not be what I'm saying.

I don't think it works that way. We may fall into sin, but it would be this or that. If you are going to sin, at least in my understanding, you're going to sin anyway.

Well, it's like the difference between being offered the chance to rob a register for $200, or the opportunity to rob a bank for $2,000,000. If it's only the $200, some might not be all that moved by it. But the $2,000,000 would get most people's attention, even if not everyone would be tempted much by the thought of having that kind of money.

Vss 20-21, hopefully accomplished.
Vss 22-24A, to be accomplished.
Vs 24B, already accomplished.
Vss 25-30A, to be accomplished.
Vs 30B, already accomplished.
Vss 31-32A, to be accomplished.
Vs 32B, already accomplished.

Woe... marks, that is a very different way of interpreting the passage...

Trust me, I'm not saying it to mock you. I'm your friend. But that's a very different way of interpreting the passage. I don't know you would find a commentator anywhere who would take the same position, not that that necessitates it would be wrong, but it's just that I'm not sure it is a sound interpretation to be bouncing back and forth like that...

But you likely are firm in your view. We could post a thread on it if you like, but it would be some work to break down, and I'm not sure if debating the passage was what you were after to begin with.

I say we let this thread sit at this point (God willing, LoL). Maybe we can pick up that passage again somewhere at some time in the future.

God bless you, man, and thanks for the conversation. It was my honor : )

 

[farouk]

Yes, although I am saying the more mature in Christ, not more "spiritual." That would be ok if taken properly, but it could be misconstrued to mean more "holier than thou." That would not be what I'm saying.

@Hidden In Him We never stop learning, right?

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him We never stop learning, right?

Absolutely : )

 

[farouk]

Absolutely : )

Indeed so...

 

[marks]

Woe... marks, that is a very different way of interpreting the passage...

Different from you? I can imagine.

But there's no need to pronounce Woes!

I don't know how you could read it differently.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

Vss 20-21, hopefully accomplished.

Hopefully you have learned Christ, and have been taught by Him.

22 That ye put off concerning the former conduct the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man,

Vss 22-24A, to be accomplished.

This is what you are to do, put off the old, and put on the new.

which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Vs 24B, already accomplished.

God already did this, recreated you.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,

Vss 25-30A, to be accomplished.

These are for you to do, to be accomplished in your life.

whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Vs 30B, already accomplished.

You've already been sealed.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another,

Vss 31-32A, to be accomplished.

even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Vs 32B, already accomplished.

You disagree with this?

Trust me, I'm not saying it to mock you. I'm your friend. But that's a very different way of interpreting the passage. I don't know you would find a commentator anywhere who would take the same position, not that that necessitates it would be wrong, but it's just that I'm not sure it is a sound interpretation to be bouncing back and forth like that...

But you likely are firm in your view. We could post a thread on it if you like, but it would be some work to break down, and I'm not sure if debating the passage was what you were after to begin with.

But rather than give any specifics, OH, Just No One would agree with you! But no point in discussing it . . . "you are likely firm in your view".

Humph!

Again you turn this into something personal.

As if being firm in a view somehow equals an intellectual dishonesty, that I'd hold to any view contrary to sound reasoning and learning in the Word.

I was after exposition of Romans 6.

Much love!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If being born again is the very moment one is justified (and I believe it is, both biblically and experientially) from whence does the carnal (not born again) person find either the will or the strength to obey? And to obey what? Who?

Man has the strength, the ability within him to serve sin or serve obedience unto righteousness and man will serve who he chooses to serve.

WHAT man is to obey is the gospel of Christ or be in flaming fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
WHO man is to obey is Christ, Hebrews 5:9.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If obedience brings grace, how is it that you can obey? I would answer that obedience comes through grace. By faith we have access into the grace in which we stand. To stand, I believe, includes obedience. Rather, standing means remaining true to our nature.

Much love!

One simply chooses to obey. God has given man His word, the gospel and man must choose to obey that gosle or be lost, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

The disobedient do not receive grace, mercy Jeremiah 18:10 while to obedient do Jeremiah 18:8.

Noah had to first obey (build the ark) THEN his house was saved from the flood (grace) Heb 11:7. Namaan first dipped (obeyed) then cleansed (grace). Again, the disobedient never receive grace.

Grace has been offered to all men Titus 2:11 but only those that conditionally obey receive it. Grace is in Christ (2 Timothy 2:1) and it takes obedience in being baptized to get in Christ and put on Christ. Gal 3:27.

Again from Rom 6, one must obey God's will else one is serving sin unto death (v16) and those serving sin unto death obviously are not in God's grace. It takes obedience to keep from serving sin unto death and it is the obedient who receive grace. Salvation = obedience and grace. Grace is not a license to sin being Paul's point in Rom 6, one must still be obedient to keep from serving sin unto death.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thanks for explaining your position, Earnest T.
I don't know that I have the time and energy for a long-winded back and forth on it, but I will just state what I think contradicts this (in a nutshell):

V.22 seems to reverse the process, stating, "But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." Also, the analogy in this passage is of being purchased out of slavery to sin through Christ's blood. Thus, "being made free from sin" is a reference to when ownership is transferred from sin over to Christ, i.e. it takes place (I believe anyway) the moment we put faith in His having died for our sins.

Rom 6:22 "But now being made free from sin, ...."

What happen that took them from being servants of unrighteousness (v17) to being made from sin (v18)? They "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, being then made freed from sin".

Obedience came BEFORE justification/freed from sin.