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Featured Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Which of these are different? What makes for an "egregious sin"? Are not all sins works of the flesh? Things done outside of faith?

    Isn't the reality that there are all manner of deeds done from the flesh? Some that we would count small, some not, but all end in death?

    It's not a matter of not doing the more egregious sins, it's a matter of putting off the old man, so sinfulness is not being entertained, is it not?

    Not a matter of making sure we don't commit too many, or too terrible of sins, but rather taking the affirmative step in putting on the new man, living in the best trust and faith we can, rejoicing that God does not impute our sins to us.

    Because if He did, who could stand?

    Much love!
     
  2. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, I think there are some that can react like this. And I think the Lord takes special care with such people that they don't misunderstand what issuing said. But for me the power to live godly is not emotion-based. Rather it is His actual Presence. Only through His Presence do we have His power, and it is not something that we simply believe we experience "by faith."
    I said the Jews, not the Pharisees, LoL. That would be taking it up a notch. I also didn't say you were "rejecting Jesus and His apostles," marks. Just saying that you have a tendency only to go by what is written, and to me that bears very strong resemblance to when Jesus said to them, "you think you have life in the Scriptures, when the scriptures speak of Me." When someone shares with you something that needs to be discerned in order to be seen in the word, you just have this chronic tendency to reject it out of hand. You did so again this time. you were apparently also rejecting what I would have said about what the feasts represented prophetically because you expressed no interest in even hearing what I meant, and you express no interest if something is not spelled out for you word for word in your Bible.

    I was not trying to insult you. I was simply bringing up the way I perceive your responses. You have no interest in what I see, and discredit it out of hand on a continual basis. But as I said, it's really not a big deal. I don't say things expecting others to always receive what I teach, because much of what I have received has been over several decades, as a result of extensive prayer and decades of study. You will likely think I'm being dismissive when I say that, but I'm just telling you that I have learned to deal with it, and be at peace nonetheless : )

    No offense. I was not trying to offend you with any of it.
     
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but temporarily losing patience with someone and having to repent of it is not the same as denouncing Christ, isn't it? :confused:

    I sometimes get the impression that you're just wanting to debate, LoL. We've been over this territory before, you know that, right?
     
  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, to me, I'm just following the conversation.

    To me, losing patience and denouncing Christ are both equally works of the flesh. Either we are walking in the Spirit, in which case, we do not sin. Or we are walking according to the flesh, in which case, the works of the flesh will result.

    Much love!
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I was staying on point is all.

    If you choose to ascribe to me that which I've not said, nor even think, and then respond as if I do, that's not going to get us anywhere.

    This seems to happen a lot.

    I don't think you know me very well. Perhaps if we were talking over coffee!

    :)

    The truth is I'm primarily here to discuss what's written in the Bible, and not unspoken, unseen personal revelations. Just the same, any revelation from God will not change what's written, and if it's from God, the truth given will be given in the Bible. There will be no contradictions.

    I stand corrected . . . Just like the Jews rejecting the revelation of the New Testament. So then what did you mean?

    And why do we have to leave the discussion of the Bible, now once again you've turned this around to me. It's just not good.


    Much love!
     
  6. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    A Ha Ha!! :) Marks, take a look at your previous two statements and then read this one again. :p You think we would talk over coffee, but it would be exactly as it is here, LoL. You would invariably tell me to just "stick to the scriptures," LoL!!!

    I love you, man! : ) But we're really not gonna be getting anywhere anytime soon, LoL. Ha!

    [Funny picture, only I'm chuckling too much to go find one atm, LoL!] : )
     
  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you'd be more open about your revelations. Eye to eye contact can replace an awful lot of written words. Perhaps you'd see my reticence to discuss my own spirituality for what is really is.

    I don't discount revelation! I don't discount visions! I have a spiritual walk with God, and in all honesty, what I think, nothing has any meaning until He gives it meaning, and He uses many many ways to do that. Dreams and visions, knowledge and revelation, and miracles. I know. And we believe the visions we have, and the dreams and the revelations, and in everything I make certain that what I think I know is equally found in Scripture, and in this I believe I am both safe and complete.

    As you've pointed out . . . strange, is it? That dreams and visions so often coincide with each person's doctrine? Or some do, and some don't, and some we receive, and change our view, and some we reject, and say, This was not from God. Why? Why do we receive some and reject others? Is it based on a feeling? I would hope on spiritual discernment, but how do we actually know? Is there a way we can know, outside of our own feelings?

    I don't talk much about supernatural works God has done in my life. I hardly know how, and even if I did, putting it all into a context would be terrifyingly complicated, not to mention unpleasant. Certain things you'd have to understand to really appreciate what He has done in me.

    I know God speaks to us personally, and He does things and reveals things in ways and times as He sees fit.

    Following a course doesn't mean it's the only course, it means it's my course.

    In my case, I look to the Written Word to inform and confirm every last single thing in my mind. I believe that to have Scripture as the pattern for my mind is to have the mind of Christ. I find that following that path appears to make it so. This wisdom is being justified by her children.

    And in as much as I am mindful of God with me, and His love for me, all matters of sin and obedience resolve themselves into - no - I won't say perfect - but into obedience out of faith in God's saving grace in my life, not faith in God's grace, faith in God, my Faithful Creator.

    He is my Faithful Creator. He made me because He wants me. He wants to give Himself to me, because He is goodness.

    So instead of giving me the opportunity to prove myself to Him in how faithful I can be, He has instead repaired the breach, and restored me to fellowship with Him.

    I think perhaps the difficulty, my friend, is that we've reverted to discussing doctrinal themes, rather than the exposition of the passage. Perhaps returning to that?

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  8. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I always fall back on "My sheep know My voice, and another they will not follow." You have your senses trained to discern good and evil is the best way I would put it, and that verse is just coming to me while writing this. But you get a witness about something, and that witness turns out to be true over time and with more prayer and study.

    Regarding visions specifically, the really powerful ones anyway, He has a language all His own. I call it "mechanic speak" to use a parallel. A mechanic can say three words to another mechanic like "change the alternator," and the other mechanic knows instantly that what that is actually saying is to follow a series of about 6 steps and then repeat the process backwards to finish.

    Well, God has this way of speaking on a higher level like that in strong dreams and visions. Not always, but often. He speaks in a way that makes you have to "catch up" to what's being said by seeking Him rather than simply spelling it out for you from the start. He was doing the same thing with the parables, and sometimes chastised the disciples for not getting what was being said without it having to be explained to them.
    This is good. It's why I have no problem with your insistence on discussing the word. I just think there are things there that require a leading of the Spirit to see - many things actually - and we miss them unless we have ears to hear, and are not dull of hearing (not you; I'm talking about everyone here).
    This is also good. If you'll notice, I never argue with this.
    That's what I love most : ), only things never stay there for long. A single diversionary interpretation and "Off we go again!" LoL, off on another tangent.

    Way it is. Like I said, I'm cool with it : )
     
  9. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree...this passage, like pretty much everything Paul wrote, is highly theological in nature. It's true, he's not pontificating in general like an intellectual idiot, he IS speaking to an audience, but what he's addressing them about is quite profound and goes beyond just something that could be said to be true just for those particular people. In fact, if we begin saying that there are portions of Paul's work that are specific for only the early Church and not applicable for the whole church...for the Christian body in general, then we suddenly start drawing lines in Paul's work that depend largely upon who we view and interpret it, rather than how he's written it. Because there appears nothing in his passages to directly tell us which theology is directed to them, and which could be applied to all Christians. That distinction would come only from those reading in afterwards.

    Just because someone might think it 'grand' to have all the perks but none of the 'down sides', as they might see it, does not mean they were truly born again. In fact, I would argue that it's proof that they absolutely never 'got' what it meant to be a Christian.
    There are plenty who might be keen for 'forgiveness' and 'heaven' and 'spiritual gifts' and a church they could call home. But anyone who refuses to open their hearts to repentance, to others, to pass that forgiveness on, to march towards denial of self because they KNOW that in that is found the joy of God....then these people never really committed, they never had a new heart and were prepared to turn their backs on the world.


    Do you think your obedience flows out of your love and your relationship with him, or out of a conscious concern that you not 'fall away'. Every Christian I have ever spoken with...or read about, I suppose...most have been either eager for growth, or frustrated by their lack of it...not because of what may happen should growth stop or stagger backwards, but because of what lies in wait for us there! Did you ever read the Narnia books? The very last one; the Last Battle, right at the end, where he is describing his version of heaven, I suppose, where the characters keep saying "further up, further in!" Christ invites us to be in deeper relationship with him, not because we'll be punished without it, but because of the wonders of what we'll find within it.

    that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. -Ephesians 3:16–19

    Do you feel how rich and full of promise that passage is? Not in a 'strive towards obedience' way, but in a 'run towards joy' sort of way.

    Well, yes, and you know those verses well. How can these verses mesh with the understanding of people who 'hear...truly hear and accept and are changed'...but then go away and are choked by life....how does that understanding of the parable of the sower mesh with all the verses that promise Christ's faithfulness with us...that HE, not the cares of the world, or our faithlessness, or fickleness is what leads us away...?
    Because truly, doesn't it make MORE sense to see the parable of the sower as a picture of what we see in scripture already? What about all the 'disciples' Christ lost when his 'sayings' became too hard? What about Paul telling Christians that those who 'went out from us were never of us'? What of people like Simon the magician who see the power of God and long for it, but never really GET it? Just because people see and hear the gospel, and have the cognitive ability to understand to a certain level that there is something there that is good...something there that could change their lives...something there that might lead to transformation and eternal life...does not mean that they have had their hearts actually transformed. It just means they've peered in the window and enjoyed the look of the fire. But life, selfishness, grief, hatred, sin...all the things of the world, can tear them away from the window. The big difference between them and real Christians is...we're on the inside being warmed by the fire. Therefore when the hardships of the world come to us, we're viewing them through the window, sure, but from the inside, from in front of the fire. And we see all by the fire's light and will always be drawn back to the fire.


    I believe thus only because I see it promised repeatedly in scripture. And, I see his faithfulness in my own life through every storm and valley or foolish deed done by myself. I know full well it's not my own wisdom or greatness that draws me back to him.
     
  10. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting the feeling that we're starting to rehash topics we've already gone over....how about you? Is there much point in that, do you think?
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I suppose in wrapping things up, as we seem to be....I would say that I have never suggested that Christians do not have a responsibility. But said responsibility comes FROM salvation, not FOR it. I look after my husband, just as he looks after me, not to ensure our marriage covenant is upheld (although, one could argue that today...but speaking in biblical terms, the marriage is sure on the wedding day), but because we love each other and are committed to each other.
    I see the bible being very clear on this point; that salvation is a gift of God, as is the Spirit, and that man cannot earn it, nor keep it, through works. Works naturally come out of a new heart, but that is all.
    So...I suppose that I would say...I do hope that when your box opens, your cat will be found healthy! :p
    I'm probably going to sign off over Christmas, so I hope you have a very Merry, blessed Christmas with your family!
     
  12. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Hi Naomi. I would like to ask, do you have anyone in your church now, or have had in the past, who would answer to the above description? Were you once someone akin to that person? Young, immature, struggling perhaps with the correct theology, maybe not even understanding much at all about what is happening to him? Did you not accept him as a Christian...believe that such a person was indeed born again and doing his best to follow Christ and live a new life, yet not yet understanding the concept of surrender...holiness...righteousness by faith...and maybe not even understanding what it actually meant to be fully justified? I know I have...I was that person once.
    If you accepted such a one and believed the spirit of God was working in his life, (for there would be no other explanation for him/her to even be in church except the spirit drawing him to Christ)- and he was desiring a new life,a new beginning...would not God Himself accept him even more readily than you? Think of the prodigal son. All he had to do was start walking in the right direction and his Father came running.
    I think in writing someone off as having never been converted or repentant at all because they backslide into the world giving up on what they at one time were earnestly searching for but were overcome by temptation and lusts of the flesh, are we not in danger of judging some in the church presently as being in the same boat? Even some who perhaps have been with us several years, because some indeed turn their backs on God even after attending seminary and ministry.
     
  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who have had their hearts remade new, their eyes opened to the love of Christ, are not going to turn around and commit spiritual suicide. Would you?
    Let's push the idea a bit further, shall we? Everyone agrees that after Jesus returns the unjust will be judged and sent into punishment. There's disagreement over the TYPE of punishment, but the idea is that once Jesus comes back only those people who love him and are redeemed will remain in an Eden like paradise here on earth with him and all will be 'perfect'. Without sin, right? But...do we ever think HOW this will be? Are we going to be without will then? How is God going to make us all perfect without the possible chance that, like the Garden, some other Adam and Eve will come along and everything will go pear shaped all over again?
    I believe the answer to this, like our answer now, is knowledge. Then we will 'see clearly'. Imagine if, in the garden, both Adam and Eve were in full possession of the information; they knew what disobeying God would bring about; death, chaos, suffering...in their own lives and in the history of the world they were supposed to shepherd. Or if they had known, conversely, that ignoring Satan and obeying God would lead them directly into an incredible era where man dwelt with God and reflected his image upon the earth in how they cared for the land and animals, etc.
    Truly...if you were in Adam and Eve's shoes and had all the info....which way would you jump? The idea of us knowing and choosing to stay within the love and service of God does not cancel his Sovereignty. Either then, or now. Now, we are told that Christ died for us, that he has given us new life, new understanding, understanding of what our lives were without him, and what they are now with him. We understand where we are going, in purpose and in destination...we know why. We know where all the lost are going...and why. And this is something that ought to move us...not just in our position, but in how we interact with them.
    You see...when the bible says that Christ will bring to completion our faith, when he promises not to let us go...that's not him whisking away our free will to turn our back to him if that's what we want. It's his promise to us that IN him we will never want to. That he'll keep our eyes and hearts steady on the truth of him even when we stumble. It's that promise that will keep us holding onto him because we know...don't we know? That in him is the only life to be found. Truly, it's as Peter said...where else would we go? We KNOW this, this truth. This is not forced upon us, or made moot by the fact that only God's will in the matter means anything. No...our hearts, our minds, are made new, and we know.
    So I believe that people who have seen this truth, who have felt it...they will not let go of God anymore than God will 'let go' of us.
     
  14. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah....see, this is just delving into semantics, to my mind. Is God or is God not creator, Lord, and God of all the Universe? That's where I was going with that. When we see that all the 'unjust' will eventually face the judge...God...upon the Throne...then we know full well that they are indeed under the rule of God.
     
  15. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Ah...even though we're pretty much done...I'm sorry, I just have to say: o_O You say I say what?
    I said:
    How is me pointing out that God, who is also, through adoption, our Heavenly Father, who rescued us through his love and mercy and keeps drawing us back to himself in forgiveness...in ANY way saying that we may denounce and curse him? How is me pointing to the verses that tell us that Christ promises to never 'let us go and raise us up' or 'bring us to completion' or 'perfect our faith' in ANY way disassociating Christians from God in a way that suggests they want nothing to do with him anymore??
    And if you want to wonder at God being a mindless automaton who is 'stuck' with people, perhaps you ought to address the verses he had written that state such things with a little less pluck and a little more wonder at the state of grace you currently find yourself in. You, being one of the people he 'stuck' himself with. You know...whether he liked you or not.
    My response? For goodness sakes. If you honestly cannot understand what motivated Christ to die on the cross for people like you and me (that would be love, by the way...for ALL, not just the amazing people) then I suspect different conversations are more essential.
     
  16. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Quickly?

    Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faithPhilippians 3:8–9

    The long-winded version?

    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, -Romans 3:23

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. -Romans 6:23

    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. -Romans 10:4

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. -Ephesians 2:8–10

    The 'picking up the cross' metaphor? Those who are in Christ pick up their crosses. Because they are in him already, and are therefore worthy; they are walking in the works prepared beforehand....this includes challenges. We all know it.
    The 'picking up of the cross' is not what makes a person 'worthy'. Doesn't work like that. Never did.
     
  17. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I think I understand you a little better, and believe we are closer to harmony on these matters. I certainly agree that in the new earth, or in heaven for the first 1000 years as I believe, the free will to rebel well still be there yes, but with a greater knowledge, or may I say understanding and appreciation for the infinitely wonderful love our Father and His Son has for us all, then as one of the prophets says, affliction shall not arise a second time.
     
  18. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I was not speaking about new, fumbling Christians, and if you want to know, I don't advocate for a judgement based attitude...I think we need to keep an open spirit about everyone, whether we think they're new, fumbling, lost, seeking, or being lead back after a time of pain. It's not for us to know really, just to extend a hand of fellowship.
    But...I would have thought, perhaps, you should have known that that I wasn't speaking of new Christians. Even 'new' Christians would have some idea that they need to 'open their hearts to repentance'...as one cannot become a Christian without that first step of confessing to Christ that they are a sinner. A new heart in Christ will almost always turn to their brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm not saying if they don't bear that fruit we judge them unsaved...that's not for us, I'm saying that if we see people displaying a number of 'bad fruit' and then they just walk away from Christ....? I mean, really....leaving aside the bible verses completely for a second, is that anymore unbelievable than 'a person can just go from a spiritual state of alive to dead to alive to dead' any number of times in their lives? All I'm saying is that I HAVE factored in the verses, and with those, I find this to be the more believable and biblically viable option.

    Look, in the end, I believe we're weighing two options. Either people are being 'fickle' as they 'flip flop' between being a believer and a non-believer their whole lives....or we're accusing God of being fickle, and flicking a person on and off his hand of 'grace' depending on where they're 'at' in their life. Which, of course, depends on their work. Because as I pointed out to HIH...despite all the window dressing, that IS what you and he are presenting. A works based salvation; perhaps not to 'get it', but certainly to keep it. That places it solidly against several scriptures I can think off...no dancing necessary. Sorry to be so blunt, but I feel it's a rather essential topic and a lot of dancing has been had and I'm starting to get the feeling like even though the music is still playing the steel capped boots have been placed on. Which I'm not particularly cool with.

    So, perhaps I should just say, so there is no confusion and the 'misunderstandings' of my posts can cease: I do NOT believe God makes us sock puppets or meat suits. I do NOT think that 'assuming God's grace' allows us an attitude of abuse towards God. Good grief. And it's all well and good to try and focus the indignation of your argument upon the 'sock puppet' case, sure, but when you, and HIH largely brush aside the large 'work like elephant' in the room, which is currently hiding from all the verses that tell it not to exist, well, I'm inclined to start my holiday season early.
     
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I'm more inclined to believe that summertime ego was once walking with the Lord sms being blessed by Him, slowly, perhaps even imperceptibly, lost touch by allowing the pleasures of this world to take over his mind. I'm not advocating a sudden decision to forsake Jesus and invite Satan into the living room. I think many who backslide May not even be fully aware of the consequences of their actions, or the direction their decisions are trending. And I don't doubt for a moment that Jesus and His angels are by his side whispering in his ear, this is the way, walk ye in it, but they shut those voices out for the sake of instant gratification, which becomes a habit, which becomes over time eternal loss. I think when John warned the church that love for the world shuts out the love of God, he was talking to Christians, not the fly by nighters.
    Nevertheless,I get the points you are making, and ultimately i think I agree with you that the live of God is so strong and persistent drawing sinners to Christ, that the sinner must actively resist God to be eternally lost. Such an action coming from one who knew God's love and the tremendous sacrifice Christ made on his behalf, would be of at all possible, be extremely rare.
    It isn't a matter of judging anyone's works, but whether they continued to trust God with their lives. Someone who trusts in the things of this world is accepting idols as his benefactor...whether they be money, entertainment, or lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God.
     
  20. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello Hidden In Him,

    The epistles of Romans and Galatians impress upon us how strong is the desire of the flesh to find some ground of boasting, some little thing to do or to endure to make salvation secure and justification complete. The Apostle Paul has already stripped human nature of it's last rags of self-made righteousness, 'all the word' of 'Jew and Gentile' have had their mouths stopped, and all are brought in guilty before God. Redemption by the blood of Christ, and free unmerited grace, has been revealed as the only ground of acceptance with God. Boasting, law, and works have all been excluded, and the conclusion of the matter expressed in the words of Romans 3:28: 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law.'

    Praise God!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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