Well...two things I think. Paul may have indeed be writing to them at that time, and they may have indeed been obeying. But, we also know the early Church was full of mistakes and stumbling Christians. They, like us now, don't have it all together. So, we shouldn't understand all passages like this as pointing to the early church and going 'they had it all together...we need to be like them to be okay'.
Nah. I wasn't implying I thought they had it all together. Just that the statements in the passage should not be read as theoretical statements but rather read literally and historically is all.
The second thing is...assuming that the bible is only a history book takes the divine nature out of it.
No, no. Not that the Bible is purely a history book either. There are plenty of statements that are made which are theoretical in nature rather than historical. I just don't think verses like Romans 6:17, 18 & 22 are theoretical. They're literal.
The truth of our stance in Christ under grace, our freedom from sin, is just as true as their stance. What Paul told them about obedience and freedom applies to us as well. And since Paul speaks so often about our standing in Christ, about grace and justification and the law, we must recognize that there is not, cannot, be a divide in those general status' between the Christian and Christ. Because I very much doubt things have changed a great deal between then and now. People still struggled with sex, pride, greed, envy, anger...all those things Paul talks of. And yet like the churches he addressed then, we too are under grace, not law. We too are slaves to righteousness, not sin. That is why we can turn our back on those things we struggle with. It's not easy, but we have this glorious future and promise to look towards. We have the Spirit's help.
No...I don't think we can claim with any sort of validity that Paul was only really talking to them. It divorces too much else from past to future, and that just starts a tectonic divide within scripture that won't stop.
What I mean is, statements like those made in Romans 6:15-16, 18 & 20 are universal, and indeed apply to the entire church throughout all time. But I believe you were applying v.17 and/or v.19 to the entire church as well, which I think is taking those verses out of context.
But...would you not say that anyone who 'persistently refuses to obey god' is probably not interested in loving him and following him anyway?
Nope. I think there are many who want what God has to offer them as long as it will cost them nothing, and they can continue to live however they want to and still be blessed by God. This is implied in the Parable of the Sower, where the seed fell in
all the soil, but did not take deep root in some soil and did not overcome the thorns in others. So, too, with many believers today. They want God but they want the world also. So they obey in some things and for a tie, but eventually their obedience comes to an end because they hit a wall they cannot surmount. I see Christians who persistently refuse to obey God all the time, actually.
Truly....answer me this: why do YOU follow and obey Jesus? Is it because you are worried that if you don't you'll miss the heaven train and end up in hell? Or, is it because you love him. Because you are just overwhelmed by what he's done for you, the sacrifice he made for you, the grace he's shown you?
Because I love Him. I'm not particularly fearful of Hell at this point because I've walked with Him so long and grown in my relationship with Him to the point where... tell you the truth, I never have been particularly afraid of it. I've always been too close to Him, like from the start. But there are still a great number of things I could be doing to serve Him better, hence my focus on obedience these days.
If it's the first, I'll pray for you! But I'm fairly sure, given what I know of you, that it's the second! And for most born again believers it is too. When we have our eyes opened to what Christ did for us...all that he did, our mouths just drop in astonishment. The enormity of that sacrifice, the love it showed. It is impossible NOT to respond in kind with love and with action that shows our love. Turning away from sin and following Christ every day, that is a natural consequence of love, gratitude and just wanting to be like him, with him.
Well yes! True Christians, and in this sense I would agree with you. But I believe there are also those who begin with Christ, and I mean
truly begin with Christ, but only very superficially. This is not only suggested by the Sower Parable, but by what I've seen in real life. They are excited for awhile, going to church, trying to depart from sin etc., but then they eventually lose interest in the things of God and in pursuing them and go back into the world, and end up dying in their sins.
And sometimes, Naomi, I'm tempted to place the blame partly on messages that tell them nothing they can do will separate them from God and their relationship with Him...
I'm hearing scriptures in my head that I'm guessing we are about to have to deal with now, LoL.
In fact, any person 'persistently refusing to obey God' sounds like the definition of an unbeliever to me!
Now this we fully agree on : ) Where we differ, however, is that you believe such a person could never have believed in Christ (i.e. received He who is the Word made flesh within them) to begin with. I believe that like the soil in the parable, there are many who indeed receive Him within themselves, but eventually they let the things of this world again choke Him out, to where He never bears fruit in their lives.