Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming

[No Pre-TB]

Wait, the bottomless pit is literal? Than is the key to open it literal? Sounds like that tv show with the 2 brothers on SciFi network. That would mean the locusts that have women like hair are literal too.

We just entered the twilight zone.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Wait, the bottomless pit is literal? Than is the key to open it literal? Sounds like that tv show with the 2 brothers on SciFi network. That would mean the locusts that have women like hair are literal too.

We just entered the twilight zone.

No, if you had the key to understanding all this then maybe you could accompany the angel down there and see for yourself.
The key is real, not physical, but a spiritual key. Gates of Hades are gates whether spiritual or physical barriers, hense the key needed to unlock them.
The Bottomless Pit.
One may get hung up on this concept. How could this be?
Imagine this: Drill a hole through the earth, down to the center and out the other side. Drop a 360 degree camera with lights inside. When it reaches the center, gravity shifts and as it passes the center it slows down and falls back towards the center. Back and forth till it stops, suspended in a giant cavern. There would be no bottom, it would be surrounded by ceiling on all directions.

 

[WPM]

Your problem is with your hermeneutics!
You insert symbolism where it isn't called for. Literally, when something doesn't fit thr Amillennialists view, your mind switches to automatic symbolic mode.

God is talking down to us, making it clear and simple and you do not want to except it.

Not true. You are describing Premil in a nutshell.

"On earth as it is in heaven". Does that phrase sound familiar? Are we to apply your symbolic mumbo jumbo to that?
Peace on earth, a Paradise reborn with the Lord walking through the gardens with us is how it once was.
This peace on earth ( the first earth) is what mankind has been yearning for.
Your denial of the Millennial Kingdom voids God's covenants with Israel. He has not forsaken them. I suppose you are likely anti-Semitic as well.

Oh, so when we take scriptures literally, it's carnal? There it is folks, Premillennials are carnal. We literally believe Jesus will reign on earth snd that is carnal thinking?. Btw, this is what the all Israelites expected when the Messiah came, that He would be King on earth and destroy all His enemies, sit on David's throne and rule - up close a d personal. This is the Davidic Covenant.
The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the father of many nations. Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the promised Land.
>>>BUT specific boundaries were never possessed by Israel, not even under King Solomon. (see Numbers 34:1-12.)
So, it has not yet been fulfilled.

You do not know what God sees. He told you what He envisions and you reject it.
I could guess what He sees when Jesus looks down on you and shakes His head. "WPM doesn't believe I will physically come back in the clouds as I left, stand on earth, defeat my enemies, build a Temple in Jerusalem and be worshipped by all nations of the earth, for a thousand years as My Words have professed; he doesn't believe all the nations with their countless languages will visit Jerusalem yearly (as the earth revolves around the sun), worship and sup with Me. He doesn't believe I will literally lock up Satan and His horde for 1000 years."

Your perception of peace is in error. It is not talking about natural physical earthly carnal peace but rather the spiritual heavenly eternal peace that attends being part of the kingdom of God. That is true peace and the only peace that matters.

Isaiah and Micah received symbolic visions 500 years before Christ of an approaching new order of peace. They described the blessing that this new order would bring and the scale of its influence. Interestingly (and graciously for us) it was a new arrangement that would embrace “all nation.” Gentiles would be brought unto an equal footing with Jews in regard to the Gospel opportunity.

The “mountain of the Lord's house” here relates to the kingdom of God. It is not talking about some physical temple in some geographical physical location. We know that for several reasons (none more so that the New Testament outworking of this prediction) but also by the actual narrative itself. This mountain is said to be found “in the top of the mountains” (referring to the carnal kingdoms of men).

There is no reason to identify them with the eternal state whether in a supposed future millennium or on the new earth. The “swords” and “spears” in these passages are used to symbolize the weapons of war whereas the “plowshares” and “pruninghooks” are used to represent the tools of peacetime. The weapons of war refer to the arm of flesh whereas the tools of peacetime refer to our trust upon the Lord.

A few chapters after Isaiah 2:2 in Isaiah 9:6-7 we get further detail on what this new period would usher in: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this."

Prophesying of Christ the Old Testament prophet declared in Micah 5:2 & 5: “thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting ... And this man shall be the peace.”

The Old Testament prophets were constantly looking for Messiah and the true peace that He would introduce. Regardless of the success of Israel’s leaders (kings, judges, priest) they were imperfect and simply preparatory to the coming perfect King who was the eternal personification of peace.

Zacharias prophesied in Luke 1:76-79 of Christ, “And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Zechariah 9:9-10 predicted: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass … and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.”

The prophets recognized that this “peace” was not simply an ethnic thing pertaining exclusively to natural Israel but was a spiritual thing that would affect all nations. This is what Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 is speaking of. We learn: “the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.” What is more we don’t need to speculate about the time-period in view, the text confirms: “in the last days it shall come to pass.”

This passage vividly shows salvation going out to the nations of the world after the cross. It shows the establishment of the kingdom of God (described here as “the mountain of the Lord's house”), above all other kingdoms of the earth (described here as mountains) and smaller ethnic groups (described here as hills).

The weapons within the kingdom are not carnal. Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, the kingdom of God is not material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

The kingdom of God that Christ brought was a spiritual Kingdom and incorporates the whole domain of which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, His dominion and His intimate rule. It is the realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and righteousness is pre-eminent.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

 

[WPM]

More symbolic mumbo jumbo to distort the true meaning, that death will exist during that time period that decribes extended lifetimes that man once had to 1000 years old. Therefore 100 year old person would be in the childhood stage of physical growth.

Oh, God's prophecy to us is intended to mean the opposite what He says ... yeah, sure

You are all screwed up, twisting and distorting things.

In eternity, no one will age.
Let's look at this plainly.
Isaiah 65:20
“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, >that is not symbolism<

Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; > old man? I thought you said people would not age in eternity???<

For the child shall die one hundred years old, > death exists in this time period ... it is plainly communicated, why would you suspect it is symbolic?<

But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. >accursed, means sin still is present, not so in eternity<

Post #101 rebuts your claims. You avoided it in full.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No, if you had the key to understanding all this then maybe you could accompany the angel down there and see for yourself.
The key is real, not physical, but a spiritual key.

But you said the bottomless pit is literal. If it’s literal, they key has to be literal. You cannot just decide on your own what’s symbolic vs what’s literal. If the pit is literal, the key is too. Otherwise none of it is literal, but all spiritual and only the spiritually discerned can understand.

 

[WPM]

You do not know what God sees. He told you what He envisions and you reject it.
I could guess what He sees when Jesus looks down on you and shakes His head. "WPM doesn't believe I will physically come back in the clouds as I left, stand on earth, defeat my enemies, build a Temple in Jerusalem and be worshipped by all nations of the earth, for a thousand years as My Words have professed; he doesn't believe all the nations with their countless languages will visit Jerusalem yearly (as the earth revolves around the sun), worship and sup with Me. He doesn't believe I will literally lock up Satan and His horde for 1000 years."

We all believe He will physically come back in the clouds as He left and stand upon earth. But you do not believe He will defeat all His enemies. You usher millions of ungodly mortals into your supposed future millennium. Who are they? What qualifies them to inherit the kingdom of God on earth?

Where does Jesus say He will "build a Temple in Jerusalem and be worshipped by all nations of the earth, for a thousand years"? You seem to be only repeating what your teachers have taught you. Where does it even teach that in Revelation 20? Nowhere! For what purpose? Do you not believe He is the new and eternal temple? Why would you want to restart the abolished old covenant? That is ridiculous. Do you not believe He is the final sacrifice for sin?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that "all the nations with their countless languages will visit Jerusalem yearly (as the earth revolves around the sun), worship and sup with Him"? Amils believe that Jesus spiritually incarcerated and chained Satan and His horde for 1000 years.

 

[WPM]

But you said the bottomless pit is literal. If it’s literal, they key has to be literal. You cannot just decide on your own what’s symbolic vs what’s literal. If the pit is literal, the key is too. Otherwise none of it is literal, but all spiritual and only the spiritually discerned can understand.

What are your thoughts on what it means bro?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Post #101 rebuts your claims. You avoided it in full.

You are telling everyone in opposition to you the same thing. "It's just irrefutable". How about if I symbolically refute your thread then maybe someday you'll literally get it?

But you said the bottomless pit is literal. If it’s literal, they key has to be literal. You cannot just decide on your own what’s symbolic vs what’s literal. If the pit is literal, the key is too. Otherwise none of it is literal, but all spiritual and only the spiritually discerned can understand.

I did say it was a literal key.
You can't discern a simple sentence - what's the use to continue.

 

[Phil .]

For sure. What’s one more thought really.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You usher millions of ungodly mortals into your supposed future millennium. Who are they? What qualifies them to inherit the kingdom of God on earth?

Who claims that? All ungodly souls, all false religions and philosophies are destroyed during the Great Tribulation.
Only believers in Christ occupy the earth.
A remnant Israel population and anyone else in all the nations left behind AFTER the rapture (first resurrection), AND before the end of the GT, who haven't taken the mark of the Beast, will have seen Christ coming (for "every eye will see him"). Then those who were on the fence or so to speak, will believe. They will persevere until the final seven bowls of wrath have been poured out to the end of the GT (which is a 3 1/2 year period of time).
Did you happen to notice the numbers mentioned in Revelation a couple times in scripture: 1260 days, 42 months and in another supportive scriptured, 1290 days and 1335 days? I know Amils are in the habit of symbolizing number values, so probably these numbers are also meanlingless to you also?

Where does Jesus say He will "build a Temple in Jerusalem and be worshipped by all nations of the earth, for a thousand years"? You seem to be only repeating what your teachers have taught you. Where does it even teach that in Revelation 20?

I learned long ago that you need to understand Old Testament prophecy to clarify NT prophecy. Various chapters in Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, etc., are in harmony and support NT prophecy. Key events spoken of in Revelation and Matthew 14 are seen in the OT.

Do you not believe He is the new and eternal temple?

Jesus is not the Temple. That is like saying Jesus is the Temple of Himself.
God dwelled inside the OT Temple and then after Pentecost, Christiand became the New Temple of the Holy Spirit. But when He comes back and dwells on the planet, where do you think He would choose to reside? The Trump Towers in New York? Jerusalem will likely be destroyed. He'll need a place, a throne, which will be the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. He will build a Temple. The only sacrifice left on the altar will be the sacrifice of praise and worship, giving thanks to our King.
That said, Revelation 11:15 days that at the 7th Trumpet many events occur, one of which is the Temple on Heaven is open. So yes, the Father is on His Throne, Jesus beside Him. But then Jesus returns and the Kingdom "on earth as it is in heaven" begins.

Do you not believe He is the final sacrifice for sin?

Of course.

Where in Revelation 20 does it say that "all the nations with their countless languages will visit Jerusalem yearly (as the earth revolves around the sun), worship and sup with Him"

I gave you the OT scriptures, you are misplacing them. They align with Rev. 20.

Amils believe that Jesus spiritually incarcerated and chained Satan and His horde for 1000 years

Really, with all the evils in the world? Demon possessions did not cease. What you may not realize, is that Revelation was written around 95 AD, therefore none of those events happened in 70 AD. and most scholars agree with this based on many historical facts.
So Revelation 2:13, Satan is still above ground: I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. (The location of the ancient city Pergamos/ Pergamum is occupied by the modern town of Bergama, in the il (province) of İzmir, Turkey).
Satan has principalities, (demon generals if you will) in charge of certain territories on the planet: Russia, China, India, Islamic nations throughout, poverty stricken nations, Venezuela, countries that suffer in many ways ruled by the evil powers and leaders influenced by Satan. The world is on the precipice and will soon be given over to Satan, A New World Order/ One World Government for a short time, referred to as the Great Tribulation.
So all you Amills are in for a shock when you start seeing Revelation 6-19 events unfold. They will slap you in the face and wake you up!

 

[Phil .]

You can't discern a simple sentence - what's the use to continue.

 

[WPM]

You are telling everyone in opposition to you the same thing. "It's just irrefutable". How about if I symbolically refute your thread then maybe someday you'll literally get it?

This is more avoidance.

 

[WPM]

Who claims that? All ungodly souls, all false religions and philosophies are destroyed during the Great Tribulation.
Only believers in Christ occupy the earth.
A remnant Israel population and anyone else in all the nations left behind AFTER the rapture (first resurrection), AND before the end of the GT, who haven't taken the mark of the Beast, will have seen Christ coming (for "every eye will see him"). Then those who were on the fence or so to speak, will believe. They will persevere until the final seven bowls of wrath have been poured out to the end of the GT (which is a 3 1/2 year period of time).
Did you happen to notice the numbers mentioned in Revelation a couple times in scripture: 1260 days, 42 months and in another supportive scriptured, 1290 days and 1335 days? I know Amils are in the habit of symbolizing number values, so probably these numbers are also meanlingless to you also?

You are presenting a Pretrib scenario yet you have no Scripture.

Where then do the billions of wicked rebels come from "as the sand of the sea" to overrun the age to come?

I learned long ago that you need to understand Old Testament prophecy to clarify NT prophecy. Various chapters in Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, etc., are in harmony and support NT prophecy. Key events spoken of in Revelation and Matthew 14 are seen in the OT.

Jesus is not the Temple. That is like saying Jesus is the Temple of Himself.
God dwelled inside the OT Temple and then after Pentecost, Christiand became the New Temple of the Holy Spirit. But when He comes back and dwells on the planet, where do you think He would choose to reside? The Trump Towers in New York? Jerusalem will likely be destroyed. He'll need a place, a throne, which will be the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. He will build a Temple. The only sacrifice left on the altar will be the sacrifice of praise and worship, giving thanks to our King.
That said, Revelation 11:15 days that at the 7th Trumpet many events occur, one of which is the Temple on Heaven is open. So yes, the Father is on His Throne, Jesus beside Him. But then Jesus returns and the Kingdom "on earth as it is in heaven" begins.

Of course.

The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialism. It wrongly and strongly promotes the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

In the Premillennialist scheme, the Judaic priesthood will be fully restored in the form of the Levitical sons of Zadok. They will function in the temple, re-igniting the old covenant sacrifices and ordinances (Ezekiel 40:45-46, 42:13-14, 19, 43:19, 24, 27, 44:15, 31, 45:4, 46:2, 19-20 and 48:10-11, 13).

This is despite the fact that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, but can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. They will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premil invention! Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It makes clear: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

I gave you the OT scriptures, you are misplacing them. They align with Rev. 20.

Exactly! You have nothing in Rev 20. You force old covenant practices into your imaginary future millennium. If you had it you would present it. You are adding unto to Scripture.

Really, with all the evils in the world? Demon possessions did not cease. What you may not realize, is that Revelation was written around 95 AD, therefore none of those events happened in 70 AD. and most scholars agree with this based on many historical facts.
So Revelation 2:13, Satan is still above ground: I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. (The location of the ancient city Pergamos/ Pergamum is occupied by the modern town of Bergama, in the il (province) of İzmir, Turkey).
Satan has principalities, (demon generals if you will) in charge of certain territories on the planet: Russia, China, India, Islamic nations throughout, poverty stricken nations, Venezuela, countries that suffer in many ways ruled by the evil powers and leaders influenced by Satan. The world is on the precipice and will soon be given over to Satan, A New World Order/ One World Government for a short time, referred to as the Great Tribulation.
So all you Amills are in for a shock when you start seeing Revelation 6-19 events unfold. They will slap you in the face and wake you up!

1. Satan is a spiritual being.
2. Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.
3. Revelation is saturated in figurative language.
4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.
5. Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.
6. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

 

[WPM]

No it doesn't (support Amillennialism), and no it does not forbid that the thousand years commences after Christ returns.

The cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years do not cease in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture forbids any such fallacy, and many Amillennialists (though not all) wrongly interpret just one verse out of all scripture as "support" for their fallacious claim that these cycles of time will cease.



I agree.

Amillennialists do not all agree with you, though. Some, for example @Truth7t7, will tell you that what you say above is false and that all creation will be destroyed - thoroughly destroyed - by fire when Christ returns and a completely new creation created.



Actually it's another truth that negates Amil.

How does it negate Amil?

It negates Amil in the same way that it negates Premil - i.e, not at all. You make so many empty, baseless claims in your posts!

The new heavens and new earth coming at the time of the return of Christ does not mean that the cycles of days, weeks, months, seasons and years cease to exist in the new heavens and new earth. Scripture forbids any such fallacy.

There will be a thousand years in the new heavens and new earth during which Satan will be bound and those who had been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name will be alive in their bodies (zao) again, and the resurrection they experience is the first resurrection of the body (anastasis) of ALL those who belong to Christ at His coming.

Scripture forbids the Amil fallacy because not only are there quite a few New Testament verses and passages telling us directly, clearly and unambiguously that Satan is not currently bound, but the best "support" Amillennialists can offer for Satan being currently bound consists of scriptures pulled together by them through sheer conjecture that do not even say that Satan was bound at Calvary.

Scripture also forbids the comical (because it's ridiculous) notion that those who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name, could have been reigning during a symbolic thousand years which are actually thousands of years from long before the beast even ascended from out of the abyss.

Amillennialists completely change the meaning of what is written in Revelation 20:1-6.

The truth is that the thousand years - according to scripture - begins when Christ returns, and the new heavens and new earth descending out of heaven from God to the earth in the new heavens and new earth are describing the experience of the resurrected saints both during the thousand years and forever, and comparing it with the lake of fire | second death to be experienced at the close of the same thousand years by those who are outside.



THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME REGARDING WHAT THEY WILL EXPERIENCE DURING THE THOUSAND YEARS AND FOREVERMORE AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)
(5) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(6) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(7) They will have written on them the name of God, Christ's new name, and the name of the city of God (Revelation 3:12)
(8) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(9) They will reign on the earth (Revelation 5:10)
(10) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)
(11) They will reign with Christ a thousand years (Revelation 20:6)
(12) They will reign forever and ever (Revelation 22:5)

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcame).
βασιλεύσουσιν (they will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5:

“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they will reign (βασιλεύσουσιν) for ever and ever.”

There will be a minority of resurrected saints ruling over a majority of resurrected saints during the thousand years, i.e they will be reigning over the twelve tribes of Israel - the nations of those who are saved according to Revelation 21, who will walk in the light of New Jerusalem and bring their tribute into it.

Just as God permitted Satan to test mankind in the Garden of Eden after a period of time had passed, so Satan will be released one last time at the close of the thousand years just as the scriptures say - and all those who believe Satan's lie that "they will not surely die - the lie which implies that eternal life | immortality is in themselves - will be tempted to sin even while they are alive forever, just like Adam did.

Fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them all, those who join the armies of Gog-Magog.

After this the sea will deliver up the rest of the dead in them and all whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will experience the second death, which is the Lake of Fire.

Scripture forbids both the Amillennial fallacy and corruption, as well as the most common Premil notion that the new heavens and new earth follows the thousand years.

Take it or leave it. I.e take the scriptures for what they are saying, or leave it and continue to make up your own doctrine:



Amils likewise have to answer all that I spoke about above - things which they cannot answer and fail to answer and instead come up with things like the extremely comical (due to it's ridiculousness) notion that there is some sort of "back to the future time machine" in the New Testament whereby people who are beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name get to reign with Christ for a thousand years which is actually thousands of years before they were even born and a thousand years which are thousands of years before they were even resurrected; and a thousand years which are thousands of years before the beast even ascended from out of the abyss.

Amils also have to answer for the fact that quite a number of New Testament scriptures teach us that Satan was not bound at Calvary, and has never been bound as yet - something which Amils such as yourself have proved over and over and over again that they are completely incapable of.



It's a false assertion and you are making a fool of yourself by repeatedly making it because Premils do not believe the thousand years is blighted with the above, but it's quite obvious that your Amil "millennium" is indeed blighted with the above.

And you are fully aware that only some Premils believe that the millennium will be filled with animal sacrifices and a physical temple in Jerusalem - the majority of Premils do not.

You're wasting my and the reader's time again because your statement above is disingenuous and a false accusation regarding what "Premils" believe since only some Premils believe it - and you know it.



I agree partially with what he says too (not fully, because he places the time for when the dead will be judged - when the sea will deliver up the dead in it - at the wrong time, just like you do).

Forget about the commentaries of commentators who do not all agree with one another about all aspects of the prophetic Biblical message.

Read the Bible and comment yourself on what you believe the Bible is saying. If the person you are quoting is not able to speak for himself in these forums then let the Bible speak for itself - something you have proved over and over again that you are not very good at doing.

You are using Revelation 20 as a dumping ground for "the last days" (Isaiah 2 and Micah 4) and “the new heaven and new earth” (Isaiah 65) passages. Sensible biblical hermeneutics are non-existent. That is because Premillennialists make it up as they go. It is clearly an engineered doctrine.

 

[Johann]

Let me ask this then. The very moment the last trump sounds, has the great white throne judgement already preceded this, thus has finished entirely? Or is that meaning a time after the last trump already sounded first?

And let me ask this as well. The very moment the last trump sounds, has what is recorded in Revelation 19:19-21 already preceded the last trump? Or is that meaning after the last trump already sounde

The Great White Throne Judgment and the Last Trump are not the same event. The Last Trump, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52, refers to the parousia, which occurs after the Great Tribulation

. The Great White Throne Judgment, described in Revelation 20:11-15, occurs after the Millennium, which follows the parousia and the events of the Great Tribulation

. Therefore, the Great White Throne Judgment has not already preceded the Last Trump, as they are distinct events in the sequence of end-time events.

J.

 

[Johann]

That is because Premillennialists make it up as they go. It is clearly a engineered doctrine.

Premillennialism is a theological view that has been held by respected theologians throughout the centuries and is based on the interpretation of certain biblical passages. The view has been debated among scholars, but this does not suggest that it is a fabricated or engineered doctrine.

J.

 

[WPM]

Premillennialism is a theological view that has been held by respected theologians throughout the centuries and is based on the interpretation of certain biblical passages. The view has been debated among scholars, but this does not suggest that it is a fabricated or engineered doctrine.

J.

When Premillennialists are asked to submit clear and undeniable corroboration for their placement of Revelation 20 after the second coming and each of its main tenets, they cannot do it. It is therefore a private interpretation of one highly symbolic text 3 chapters before the end of the Bible.

 

[Johann]

When Premillennialists are asked to submit clear and undeniable corroboration for their placement of Revelation 20 after the second coming and each of its main tenets, they cannot do it. It is therefore a private interpretation of one highly symbolic text 3 chapters before the end of the Bible.

Then I can turn around and say it is a matter of private interpretation to you-Right?

what is the amillennialist interpretation of revelation 20
what is the postmillennialist interpretation of revelation 20
what are the main arguments against premillennialism's interpretation of revelation 20

J.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You are presenting a Pretrib scenario yet you have no Scripture.

Revelation 20 gives us a general template of the Millennial Kingdom, which is why I presented additional supportive OT scriptures. But you deny them.
Certainly in my above scenario, conjecture is used to fill in the blanks. Some aspects are left mysterious. But because of this mystery, we don't just object, deny, deconstruct and symbolize it into oblivion like the Amills do.

Where then do the billions of wicked rebels come from "as the sand of the sea" to overrun the age to come?

This is more prevarication on your part!

The Mk starts with ALL Christians, a Christian world. All other ungodly, false religions, philosophies, cults, atheism, any ways and beliefs void of the TRUTH are destroyed. This is the Utopia mankind has always yearned for. Paradise reborn and living with the LORD, walking with Him as Adam and Eve did before they sinned.
Yet not all have been resurrected. It is this remnant of Israel and all other nations after the resurrection, who realize that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. They repopulate the earth, bring up their children, who must receive the truth. And they do, since it is a wonderful, loving environment.
“the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14

Satan is locked up, so temptation for these folks are minimal - because they still have this fallen nature as we have now, the flesh.
Towards the end of the MK as the the scripture tells us, Satan is released once again to tempt these individuals. I don't know the numbers at that time, nor the number of people left behind. But wouldn't it be fair for God to test these people as we are tested now?
We are about to be ushered into a time called the Great Tribulation. Do you not see that?

The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialism. It wrongly and strongly promotes the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in the future

More prevarication. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. OT animal sacrifices will not be present, only praise and worship.
I am sure those who live in Israel now, who survive this GT, will have a feast in remembrance of the time they were saved by the Lord and protected: Feast of Booths, remembering when they all lived in tents, after the war which left their country in desolation during the coming GT. Does that term ring a bell, abomination of desolation?

Jerusalem was made desolate in 70AD and will be again in this war that we see now escalating.
Wake up! This world system is about to die and be replaced.

 

[WPM]

Then I can turn around and say it is a matter of private interpretation to you-Right?

what is the amillennialist interpretation of revelation 20
what is the postmillennialist interpretation of revelation 20
what are the main arguments against premillennialism's interpretation of revelation 20

J.

I am willing to give you support for Amil's placement of everything. But the burden of proof is with you to show us corroboration for all your main tenets. All I see for your core beliefs is Revelation 20.

• Where else in Scripture is a thousand years mentioned after the second coming?
• Where else in Scripture is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?
• Where else in Scripture is the binding of Satan?
• Where else in Scripture are the 2 future resurrections?
• Where else in Scripture are the 2 future judgments?
• Where else in Scripture is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?