Is apostolic succession biblical?

[theefaith]

And acts 1 calls the office or habitation of Judas an apostle his bishoprick

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Yes, Apostles and Prophets are on the list, but no where does Paul say that each generation must witness apostles and prophets. That idea is being added to the text, not found in the text. ...

If you mean the text which describes the giftings to the church, I believe it cites FIVE: Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers.

And I don't find anywhere in Scripture that ANY of these GIFTINGS are REMOVED from the Church. But certain Denominations take their LIBERTIES with Scripture. And I don't think that GOD will hold that against them, -- or at least THEY SHOULD HOPE that GOD won't hold their lies against them.


Bobby Jo

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This thread has deteriorated into a huge bash fest. I’m out.

 

[Illuminator]

And acts 1 calls the office or habitation of Judas an apostle his bishoprick

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

This proves the OFFICE held by Judas was vacant, and a successor was "numbered with the Eleven". Matthias was not chosen directly by Jesus Himself, Acts 1:26 proves the Church has the same authority as if Jesus was visibly present.

 

[Illuminator]

This thread has deteriorated into a huge bash fest. I’m out.

I wanted the thread closed days ago. But I'll stick around to refute the lies and falsehoods pontificated by anti-Catholic bigots and CARMinion zombies. When the Catholic bashers get bashed by non-Catholics, it gets rather entertaining. We are at page 9. I wonder how many more pages of Catholic bashing must go on until the moderators enforce their own rules.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I wanted the thread closed days ago. But I'll stick around to refute the lies and falsehoods pontificated by anti-Catholic bigots and CARMinion zombies. When the Catholic bashers get bashed by non-Catholics, it gets rather entertaining. We are at page 9. I wonder how many more pages of Catholic bashing must go on until the moderators enforce their own rules.

I never find bashing acceptable. Including when it's bashing bashers, people bashing / lying about my faith, spreading other falsehoods, etc.
Bashing is just bad.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I wanted the thread closed days ago. But I'll stick around to refute the lies and falsehoods pontificated by anti-Catholic bigots and CARMinion zombies. When the Catholic bashers get bashed by non-Catholics, it gets rather entertaining. We are at page 9. I wonder how many more pages of Catholic bashing must go on until the moderators enforce their own rules.

Personally, I have no idea why anyone is accusing "Catholic Bashing". Certainly those who DENY what Scripture says deserves Instruction and Accountability, irregardless of any "faith" or "denomination" exactly as Scripture DEMANDS:

2 Tmothy 4:2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.​

If defending, convincing, and rebuking is "Bashing", then maybe it's semantics. But whatever it's called, it is Scriptural, independent of any "victimization".
Bobby Jo

 

[historyb]

I wanted the thread closed days ago. But I'll stick around to refute the lies and falsehoods pontificated by anti-Catholic bigots and CARMinion zombies. When the Catholic bashers get bashed by non-Catholics, it gets rather entertaining. We are at page 9. I wonder how many more pages of Catholic bashing must go on until the moderators enforce their own rules.

It's not just Catholic bashing, it's Christian bashing. Traditional Christians believe in Apostolic Succession too like Anglican, others like my Church. The problem is that many bashing are not that smart and think only their false ideas are right without even knowing history. I hate the way it is allowed here. There is so much heresy and paganism allowed here that sometimes one has to wonder.

 

[Sabertooth]

Is apostolic succession biblical?

What do you mean by "succession?"

If you just mean that they continued, Ephesians 4:11-13 says yes.

"And [Jesus] Himself gave

• some to be apostles,
• some prophets,
• some evangelists, and
• some pastors and
• teachers,

for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ,..."

Until when?
"...till we all come

• to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• to a perfect man,
• to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;..."

Are we there, yet...?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Holy Spirit calls bishops to continue the foundation laid by the Apostles.

Laying the apostolic foundation is not the role of a bishop. The intent of Paul was to establish one or more elders in a local church to guide new believers into the faith. What you call a "bishop" is not a bishop in the Biblical sense. The elder, as Paul called it, has a teaching and advisory role. Whereas the so-called Catholic Church has given the catholic bishop power and authority, the Biblical elder has no power or authority.

Matthew 28:16-20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Power and authority reside in Jesus Christ. As he said, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." His authority is inalienable and can not be transferred to his apostles or bishops or anyone else.

In addition, he instructs the apostles to baptize in HIS name, making disciples for Jesus Christ. If the apostles or anyone else should perform the ritual of baptism, they are obligated to make it very clear to the new convert that they have become students of Jesus Christ, not students of the baptizer. Elders are guides and teachers without authority to command anyone. We aren't obeying anyone except Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Notice that Paul includes himself in his warning concerning false gospels. From this example we understand that belief-authority rests in the true message, NOT in the person. Even if Paul himself were to preach a gospel contrary to what he previously preached, the church of Galatia is not obligated to obey Paul himself. Why? Because the authority rests in the message and the truth, not in the messenger.

Paul didn't have too spell out succession in text, he lived it when he ordained Timothy as bishop and instructed him to ordain more faithful men, who would ordain more faithful men... (2 Timothy 2:2) and so one until the end of the world.

Paul is not talking about a Catholic bishopric. His instructions to Timothy are meant for his local church, encouraging Timothy to assign teaching duties to elders. Nothing here about an institution or an office. We have seen above, the liberty we have in Christ Jesus. No man, other than Jesus, has the authority to tell us what to do or what to think. Elders are guides.

Jesus gave the power to bind and loose only to the Apostles, not any individual believer, and that power was passed down to ordained bishops.

There is no such power. Jesus didn't give the apostles the power or authority to bind and loose. No, that is incorrect. Rather, Jesus gave his apostles the ability to know what Jesus has already bound or loosed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

the apostles are guided by the Holy Spirit acts 8

Correct. Jesus told these men that he would send the Holy Spirit to help them. He referred to the Holy Spirit as "the spirit of truth" in John's gospel. Consider the following passages,

John 14:16-17
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 15:26
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:13-14
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

In the passages above, Jesus informs the 11 that he will send a helper, the spirit of truth. The helper will not only be among them but he will be in them. The spirit of truth will work in conjunction with the 11 as they testify about Jesus. This promise is made to those who have been with Jesus from the beginning.

Paul was also an apostle and he cites the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as prima fascia evidence of his role as a true apostle.

2 Corinthians 12:11-12
I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

 

[Illuminator]

Laying the apostolic foundation is not the role of a bishop. The intent of Paul was to establish one or more elders in a local church to guide new believers into the faith. What you call a "bishop" is not a bishop in the Biblical sense. The elder, as Paul called it, has a teaching and advisory role. Whereas the so-called Catholic Church has given the catholic bishop power and authority, the Biblical elder has no power or authority.

Matthew 28:16-20
But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Power and authority reside in Jesus Christ. As he said, "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." His authority is inalienable and can not be transferred to his apostles or bishops or anyone else.

In addition, he instructs the apostles to baptize in HIS name, making disciples for Jesus Christ. If the apostles or anyone else should perform the ritual of baptism, they are obligated to make it very clear to the new convert that they have become students of Jesus Christ, not students of the baptizer. Elders are guides and teachers without authority to command anyone. We aren't obeying anyone except Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Notice that Paul includes himself in his warning concerning false gospels. From this example we understand that belief-authority rests in the true message, NOT in the person. Even if Paul himself were to preach a gospel contrary to what he previously preached, the church of Galatia is not obligated to obey Paul himself. Why? Because the authority rests in the message and the truth, not in the messenger.

Paul is not talking about a Catholic bishopric. His instructions to Timothy are meant for his local church, encouraging Timothy to assign teaching duties to elders. Nothing here about an institution or an office. We have seen above, the liberty we have in Christ Jesus. No man, other than Jesus, has the authority to tell us what to do or what to think. Elders are guides.

There is no such power. Jesus didn't give the apostles the power or authority to bind and loose. No, that is incorrect. Rather, Jesus gave his apostles the ability to know what Jesus has already bound or loosed.

Easy for you to say. Your impotent store front bible cult has unbiblically abolished the office of bishop. You don't have legitimate bishops, so you arrogantly attack, with man made traditions, the ones who have preserved the office down through the centuries.

 

[Illuminator]

Correct. Jesus told these men that he would send the Holy Spirit to help them. He referred to the Holy Spirit as "the spirit of truth" in John's gospel. Consider the following passages,

John 14:16-17
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 15:26
When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John 16:13-14
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

In the passages above, Jesus informs the 11 that he will send a helper, the spirit of truth. The helper will not only be among them but he will be in them. The spirit of truth will work in conjunction with the 11 as they testify about Jesus. This promise is made to those who have been with Jesus from the beginning.

Paul was also an apostle and he cites the manifestation of the Holy Spirit as prima fascia evidence of his role as a true apostle.

2 Corinthians 12:11-12
I have become foolish; you yourselves compelled me. Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—(as in CadyandZoe's <10 year old bible cult) there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head, no accountability beyond the local congregation, no fellowship beyond the local assembly, no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.
by Daniel B. Wallace
Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary
With that premise, CadyandZoe grants herself authority to teach Scripture.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Easy for you to say. Your impotent store front bible cult has unbiblically abolished the office of bishop. You don't have legitimate bishops, so you arrogantly attack, with man made traditions, the ones who have preserved the office down through the centuries.

There you go, making stuff up again.
1. I have abolished the office of bishop. How can I abolish something that neither Jesus nor his apostles taught?

Ephesians 4:7-9
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, "“When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”

Here we see clear evidence that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to men, not to an office. Your doctrine of the office of Bishop is defeated.

2. My Bible church is impotent. Here again you make claims without proof. This is in keeping with your religion, which asks people to believe goofy ideas, not on the basis of scripture and sound reason, but on the basis of loyalty to a dogma. You know nothing about me or my church.

3. You don't have legitimate Bishops. Sure we do. The difference between our church and yours is the basis of legitimacy.

Titus 1:7-9
For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Here we see several points that bear on the issue. First of all, Paul says that the overseer (Bishop) must be above reproach. Logically then, if Titus is to choose whom to pick as an overseer, Titus must know the man personally or by reputation. Also, if someone is not available with these qualities, then Titus is not obligated choose an overseer. The same can't be said of an office. In the case of the Catholic Church, when the entire city is filled with pedophiles, then Titus would have no choice but to fill the office with a pedophile. When the church is reduced to an institution filled with offices, the offices must be filled with people no matter the person's character. And we all know how that turned out.

Those who hold "religious beliefs" can never be proven wrong. Why? Because their beliefs didn't arise from reasons or evidence.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—(as in CadyandZoe's <10 year old bible cult) there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head, no accountability beyond the local congregation, no fellowship beyond the local assembly, no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.
by Daniel B. Wallace
Executive Director of CSNTM & Senior Research Professor of NT Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary
With that premise, CadyandZoe grants herself authority to teach Scripture.

That's right. Get over it. We are disciples of Jesus Christ. My elders are wise, smart, educated, capable, humble, above reproach, and dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ. They are my elders because of these qualities, not because they hold an office.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... My elders are wise, smart, educated, capable, humble, above reproach, and dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ. ...

If this is TRUE, then why have your intellect. Just listen and heed EVERY WORD THAT COME FROM THEIR MOUTHS, and shut your brain down. -- DON'T CONSIDER that they are frail and have their faults, and are teaching FALSE Doctrines because THAT'S what THEY WERE TAUGHT. And continue to IGNORE Scripture, because you've already shut down your brain.

So is there anything to be gained from this conversation? -- I think not.
Bobby Jo

 

[CadyandZoe]

If this is TRUE, then why have your intellect. Just listen and heed EVERY WORD THAT COME FROM THEIR MOUTHS, and shut your brain down. -- DON'T CONSIDER that they are frail and have their faults, and are teaching FALSE Doctrines because THAT'S what THEY WERE TAUGHT. And continue to IGNORE Scripture, because you've already shut down your brain.

So is there anything to be gained from this conversation? -- I think not.
Bobby Jo

Would you say the same thing about parents?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Would you say the same thing about parents?

ABSOLUTELY! Are our Parents PERFECT? I THINK NOT! -- When my children said they didn't like my rules, I told them GOOD because I didn't want them to be like "SHIRLEY" (the older lady next door who never left home).

Or as I told the young man I was mentoring when he wouldn't be independently responsible, -- go get a sip from you mother ... (meaning "wet nurse"). Boy HE DIDN'T LIKE THAT ONE BIT, and so he had to become MORE INDEPENDENTLY RESPONSIBLE or I'd tell him AGAIN!


Do YOU need a wet nurse, or do you want to be INDEPENDENTLY RESPONSIBLE?
Bobby Jo

 

[BreadOfLife]

There you go, making stuff up again.
1. I have abolished the office of bishop. How can I abolish something that neither Jesus nor his apostles taught?

Ephesians 4:7-9
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, "“When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”

Here we see clear evidence that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to men, not to an office. Your doctrine of the office of Bishop is defeated.

2. My Bible church is impotent. Here again you make claims without proof. This is in keeping with your religion, which asks people to believe goofy ideas, not on the basis of scripture and sound reason, but on the basis of loyalty to a dogma. You know nothing about me or my church.

3. You don't have legitimate Bishops. Sure we do. The difference between our church and yours is the basis of legitimacy.

Titus 1:7-9
For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Here we see several points that bear on the issue. First of all, Paul says that the overseer (Bishop) must be above reproach. Logically then, if Titus is to choose whom to pick as an overseer, Titus must know the man personally or by reputation. Also, if someone is not available with these qualities, then Titus is not obligated choose an overseer. The same can't be said of an office. In the case of the Catholic Church, when the entire city is filled with pedophiles, then Titus would have no choice but to fill the office with a pedophile. When the church is reduced to an institution filled with offices, the offices must be filled with people no matter the person's character. And we all know how that turned out.

Those who hold "religious beliefs" can never be proven wrong. Why? Because their beliefs didn't arise from reasons or evidence.

So, is it the Biblical-prescribed hierarchy that you have a problem with - or just the Catholic Church's practice of a hierarchy?

And, as for your comment n RED - are you prepared to prove that the Catholic church is "FILLED" will pedophiles - or that there was a problem with a very small percentage of priests?

Are you ALSO prepared to address the fact that the problem is FAR greater among Protestant leaders?
Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse

Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson

Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis : NPR

Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics

There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy

Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor

Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches

Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups

U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse

Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors

Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse

 

[Bobby Jo]

... the fact that [sexual abuse] is FAR greater among Protestant leaders? ...

On the first day of "Statistics Class", the professor's OPENING Statement was: "Statistics Don't Lie, But Liars Statist". And YOU, @BreadOfLife are whom he was referring to!

First of all, statistics identify Catholics versus Non-Catholics -- which can include any non-affiliated churches. Thus the ACCURATE statistic is closer to:

... 48.9% of Americans identify themselves as some version of Protestantisim, whereas 23% identify themselves as being Catholic ...
https: // stopabusecampaign.org/​

So the statistic showing ABUSE:

... about 260 reports of sexual abuse per year from Protestant churches, and about 228 from Catholic churches.
IBID
​

... which is a ratio of 30.89 for Protestant versus 52.44 for Catholic, which calculates to 70% MORE ABUSE in the Catholic Church. And this makes sense in that "Priests" are supposed to be "celibate" when that's neither GOD's plan for mankind, and certainly not under the constraint of the Early Church. And it maybe beneficial for the Ministry to have an unencumbered Servant, ESPECIALLY when SOME Ministers sacrifice the needs of the FAMILY for the needs of the Church -- whose action is WORSE than an INFIDEL. Because THE FAMILY MUST ALWAYS COME FIRST.


-- But it's my experience that you, (@BreadOfLife), are MORE INTERESTED in defending your religion than the TRUTH!
Bobby Jo