Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
We can be doctrinally worlds apart, but can be fully in agreement with the above.
Is apostolic succession biblical?
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
You want to argue, and I only inform. So go your way and receive your reward.
Whew,
Bobby Jo
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
The original 11 Apostles to whom Jesus spoke to were able to reach "all nations" with planes and helicopters, or they were disobedient to Jesus' command to "teach all nations" because it's impossible for 11 men to cover the planet on foot during their lifetimes. Common sense says the only way Jesus' command could be acted upon "until the end of the world" was through apostolic succession.
There has been some bellyaching over Apostles making more Apostles. This is NOT apostolic succession. The original office of apostle is not the same as succeeding bishops.
Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.
Being ordained with full apostolic authority does not mean: "POOF, you're of the original 12". That is a straw man fallacy because it is not what the Church teaches.
Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.” DUH!
Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.
Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.
Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.
Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.
2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.
1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.
2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.
2 Tim. 4:1-6 – at end of Paul’s life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.
2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
(this verse alone is solid proof-text of apostolic succession, denied by those who change its meaning)
Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 – shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Titus 2:15 – Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.
read more here: APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic
The question which honest Catholics must ask themselves is that if this teaching is true, how is it that so many popes and bishops were totally corrupt? True succession would mean that only godly men succeeded the apostles. But we have evidence that corruption ran deep in the Catholic Church for centuries, and some bishops have recently been exposed for their sexual crimes or their willingness to protect sexual predators.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Your anti-Catholic bias makes you say "so many popes and bishops were totally corrupt" We don't deny there were some corrupt leaders, but your constant exaggerations are just plain annoying, and playing the sex abuse card is beating a dead horse, pretending nothing has been done about it, and pretending Protestantism is so lilly-white holy.
Sin will always be with us. This is why we have Christianity in the first place: to save men from sin (duh!!!). It’s called . . . original sin . . . concupiscence, etc. Enoch111's brand of Christianity takes it even further than we do, holding that men have a “sin nature.” Yet he is surprised that sin — even very serious, especially evil sin, with cover-ups — occurs. But there is one truth, and that doesn’t change because some people in the ranks of where the Christian truth resides most fully, have sinned.
It’s a huge tragedy, disgraceful, abominable, unspeakably evil, but it doesn’t cause doctrinal truth to change. If Isaac Newton — heaven forbid — had been found having sex with a little boy, it wouldn’t alter the fact that gravity is a scientific truth. We wouldn’t reject his established, demonstrable teaching because he was personally a scoundrel.
St. Paul didn’t hesitate in calling the Corinthian assembly “the church of God” (1 Cor 1:2; 2 Cor 1:1; RSV) even though terrible sexual sin had occurred within its ranks: 1 Corinthians 5:1
Somehow, our Lord Jesus still called the assembly of Christians in Thyatira “the church” (Rev 2:18), despite the presence therein of wicked sexual immorality: Revelation 2:20-25
Again, for some reason God didn’t cease his eternal covenant with David (Ps 89:3-4, 26-37; 132:11-18; 2 Sam 7:12-17), even though he had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed (no small sin). God, knowing everything and being outside of time, knew this would happen, but it didn’t stop Him from making the covenant with David.
-He decided to choose Moses to be His lawgiver, despite his having murdered a man; selected betrayer Peter to lead His Church,
-and murderer of Christians: Paul to be His chief initial missionary to the Gentiles (and all four men wrote plenty of inspired Scripture).
Lots of very serious sin there...
No bad pope ever formally taught a heresy, and even if Enoch111 could find one, (which he can't) that pope would cease to be the pope.
Matt. 16:19 – for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
John 11:51-52 –Enoch111 may argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
OH YEAH?!? MY CHURCH IS PERFECT, -- except for a subsequent Pastor who was intimate with the Pianist; and the Youth Minister who took advantage of a 15 year of girl who had just lost her mother to cancer, and the Pastor who covered up the whole mess; and the Pastor who kicked out a Devout Christian because he believed the Bible over ONE (of many) of the Pastor's FALSE Doctrines; and the FALSE Teachings from the Pulpit; and the Pastor who was hauled off for Child Porn; and the TWO Pastors who LIED TO MY FACE; and ... (yeah, there's so much more to add, I just got tired of typing) ...
Wait a minute, -- I just realized that my DENOMINATION isn't PERFECT!!! Who'da thunk?
Bobby Jo
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Let's start over then. You asserted, "Either they ALL OPERATE or NONE OPERATE. " What do you mean by "operate"?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Good question.
In his writings, Paul likens the growth of the church to a construction project, as if the church is a building. In the following passage, for instance, Paul describes himself as one who lays the foundation.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
In his epistle to the Ephesians, Paul refers to the apostles and prophets as the foundation, and in accordance with that metaphor, he refers to Jesus Christ as the corner stone. And here again, Paul likens the church as a building.
Ephesians 2:19-21
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Christ is building his church. He begins with the foundation, which is the revealed word of God, disclosed through the OT prophets and the NT Apostles. Once the foundation is laid, there is no more need for apostles or prophets. They have done their job. And their work product has been preserved in both the Old Testament and the New Testament for us so that we might continue to learn from them. Evangelists, teachers, and preachers are building on that foundation.
Anytime someone, including me, argues from the scriptures we are building on that foundation. And the day will show whether or not I used materials that endure.
the verse you use to support evangelist, teachers, and pastors also include and even begins with APOSTLES!
please show me in the Bible where the Authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose has been revoked?
No Apostles! No Church!
Know Apostles! Know Church!
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
As I suggested, I'm not here to convince you, -- that's the job of the Holy Spirit. All I can do is point you in the in the correct direction, which I've done, and the rest is up to you! But either way, it's not Salvation dependent but it is a "check" on whether the Doctrines we're given are ACCURATE. And EVERY CHURCH and EVERY CHRISTIAN will give you INACCURATE Doctrines. So the Scriptures say to "try the spirits and see if the be of GOD", and to "judge the prophets".
So don't be lazy, -- challenge EVERYTHING you hear, because not all things are worth hearing.
Bobby Jo
No Bobby Jo I disagree there is only one church, only one body of Christ!
And the one true church CANNOT teach error!
Mt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
if the one true church is not perfect and can teach error, then Christ is not perfect and can teach error, and God is not perfect and can teach error!
do you see what I mean?
The church is the spotless bride of Christ!
And the one true church CANNOT teach error!
Mt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
if the one true church is not perfect and can teach error, then Christ is not perfect and can teach error, and God is not perfect and can teach error!
do you see what I mean?
The church is the spotless bride of Christ!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Remember, Peter gives the qualification for an apostle. An apostle must be an eye witness of Jesus ministry from his baptism to his resurrection. Second, Peter says we already have everything we need for godliness. Third, Paul argues that the role of the Apostle is to lay the foundation of the church. And now, since the foundation has been laid, the Holy Spirit no longer calls apostles.
Yes, Apostles and Prophets are on the list, but no where does Paul say that each generation must witness apostles and prophets. That idea is being added to the text, not found in the text.
The power of bind and loose has not been revoked. As I said, the power does NOT reside in an office; it was given to individual men.
There is no one alive who can qualify to be an apostle, because there is no one alive who is an eye witness of Jesus' ministry. Once the foundation has been laid, those who build the foundation are no longer needed. A builder does not continue to work on the foundation while the rest of the building is under construction.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Actually, both those who post and those who read share a common understanding of the process. When I read your posts, for instance, I take for granted that you are telling me the truth as you understand it. You, as the writer are taking the role of teacher; I, as the reader, am taking the role of the student. When we read each others posts, we adopt an ethic of reading whereby one is not immediately dismissive or skeptical of the author.
For this reason, wanting the conversation to move in a positive direction, and sincerely wanting to know what YOU believe and think, I asked you what you meant by "operate"? If you are done with this subject, I understand.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers. -- ALL or NONE, don't pick and choose which ones you like or dislike. they ALL OPERATE within the Body of Christ (the church).
But if you DO pick and choose, PLEASE GET RID OF THE "Pastors" because "HIRELINGS" have filled their ranks to OVERFLOWING!
Jhn 10:13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
Bobby Jo
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'm still not sure what you mean by "operate." I maintain that the Apostles are operational within the church through the New Testament scriptures. Therefore, I did not get rid of them.Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers. -- ALL or NONE, don't pick and choose which ones you like or dislike. they ALL OPERATE within the Body of Christ (the church).
But if you DO pick and choose, PLEASE GET RID OF THE "Pastors" because "HIRELINGS" have filled their ranks to OVERFLOWING!
Jhn 10:13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
... so we no longer have Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teachers?
As I said, if you're going to disbelieve Scripture, then at least get rid of the "hireling" Pastors ...
Bobby Jo
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
The Holy Spirit calls bishops to continue the foundation laid by the Apostles. Bishops are not Apostles. The Pope is not an Apostle, he is a bishop, the bishop of Rome, and serves that diocese as any local bishop. The anti-institutional, anti-church mentality is not biblical and defies historical truth. If new bishops were not ordained, the historical Church would not have grown beyond it's birthplace, and Christianity would have ended up as an obscure footnote in the putrid backwaters of history.
A straw man fallacy because nobody is saying that. Paul didn't have too spell out succession in text, he lived it when he ordained Timothy as bishop and instructed him to ordain more faithful men, who would ordain more faithful men... (2 Timothy 2:2) and so one until the end of the world. The Apostle John founded the 7 churches in Asia minor and they also grew. (Ephesians 2:2)
That is an opinion not found in Scripture. Jesus gave the power to bind and loose only to the Apostles, not any individual believer, and that power was passed down to ordained bishops. If any bishop can not trace their pedigree back to the Apostles, their bishopric is fake. Furthermore, binding and loosing is a rabbinical term understood by everyone, and anti-church bible fellowships have disowned their elder brother (Judaism).
What is the date that Jesus ceased to build His Church???
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