Jesus was talking about the completion of his mission to bear the sins of many for the forgiveness of sins. I don't think he was done representing God to the world or ruling as king.
Is God finished with Israel?
- Thread starter CadyandZoe
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I agree. The state of the state doesn't look good. And if my interpretation of prophecy is correct, the current state will betray her people and God will destroy it eventually.
I have a different interpretation of Matthew 21:42-44.
One might read Jesus to say that God is taking the kingdom away from the Hebrews and giving it to another people or peoples. That isn't what Jesus meant to say, though. Instead, Jesus means to say that the kingdom of God is being taken away from the chief priests and the Pharisees and given to another group of leaders. Presumably the kingdom is being given to the apostles.
Jesus tells a parable about a landowner, a vineyard and some vine growers. The vine-growers were renting the field and agreed to pay rent to the landlord. When it came time for the harvest, he sent slaves to collect his produce. The vine-growers killed the slaves. Then the Landowner sent his son, thinking that they wouldn't harm his son. But alas, the vine-growers killed his son also.
Matthew continues:
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. 46 When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet.
Jesus tells these men that the vineyard is going to be take away from them and given to other vine-growers, presumably the apostles.
All those wonderful OT promises and prophecies to Israel were fulfilled in the gospel. I don't think there is any question about that, since that is WHY those scriptures were quoted in the NT saying "this is that" which was prophesied or promised. Jesus DID raise up David's fallen tabernacle and sat on his throne. Jesus is a son of David according to the flesh as well as spirit (since David was a type/shadow of Christ's rule) and is rightful heir to David's throne.
Are we thinking that we're looking for Israel after the flesh to rule & reign, or isn't it the Israel of God that inherits the birthright? Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. I wonder if we need to look at Romans 11 in light of Romans 9. Romans 11 doesnt' nullify Romans 9...since no scripture nullifies another scrip. We need to be careful.....I believe it's a snare and dangerous deception to look for Israel after the flesh to rule and reign. Jesus said His kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. We like Abraham are looking for the city that is above, not earthly Jerusalem. Cast out the bondwoman and her son...Hagar is likened to earthly Jerusalem.
If the fullness of the Gentiles means only a remnant of the Gentile world (we don't ever expect to see the whole Gentile world believing in Christ, only a remnant of it), then why would we assume Israel's fullness means anything more than a remnant? It's always about a remnant, though we certainly hope and pray for a large remnant of Jews who will believe. Looking at the condition of the church today, it's not hard to believe many of the unnatural branches will be or are being broken off to make room for more natural branches to be grafted back in, so to speak. But grafted into what Tree and root? The tree and root is not Israel after the flesh.... Jesus Christ is that root and Tree of life, and the Israel of God.
Are we thinking that we're looking for Israel after the flesh to rule & reign, or isn't it the Israel of God that inherits the birthright? Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. I wonder if we need to look at Romans 11 in light of Romans 9. Romans 11 doesnt' nullify Romans 9...since no scripture nullifies another scrip. We need to be careful.....I believe it's a snare and dangerous deception to look for Israel after the flesh to rule and reign. Jesus said His kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. We like Abraham are looking for the city that is above, not earthly Jerusalem. Cast out the bondwoman and her son...Hagar is likened to earthly Jerusalem.
If the fullness of the Gentiles means only a remnant of the Gentile world (we don't ever expect to see the whole Gentile world believing in Christ, only a remnant of it), then why would we assume Israel's fullness means anything more than a remnant? It's always about a remnant, though we certainly hope and pray for a large remnant of Jews who will believe. Looking at the condition of the church today, it's not hard to believe many of the unnatural branches will be or are being broken off to make room for more natural branches to be grafted back in, so to speak. But grafted into what Tree and root? The tree and root is not Israel after the flesh.... Jesus Christ is that root and Tree of life, and the Israel of God.
Did Jesus sit on the throne of David? I think he was raised to the right hand of the father right?
Davy
Well-Known Member
I'm surprised at how few actually understand all those of Romans 11 that Paul was pointing to. Paul's brethren the Jews are only about 3 tribes of Israelites, not all the seed of Israel. I know why many brethren don't understand this; it's because many don't like the subject of history, so they don't study their Old Testament history either, even though studying Bible history is essential to understanding much of The New Testament Scriptures, because those like the Apostles understood Old Testament history. That is even why Apostle Peter admonished those in Christ to be mindful of the words of the prophets too (2 Peter 3:2).
1. God split old Israel into 2 separate kingdoms because of Solomon allowing his many foreigner concubines and wives to bring idol worship into Israel. (1 Kings 11).
2. The southern kingdom under Solomon's son, Rehoboam, was made up of only 3 tribes, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. These became known as JEWS, that name derived from the tribe of Judah. This kingdom with its capital city at Jerusalem, became known per God's Word as the "kingdom of Judah", or "house of Judah", or just "Jerusalem", or "Judah", after the split. (see 1 Kings 12 to 2 Kings 17).
3. The northern kingdom that God created at that split, was the "kingdom of Israel", and was made up of the ten northern tribes of Israel that lived in the northern lands. God made Jeroboam, born of the tribe of Ephraim, king over Israel, with its capital city at Samaria in the north. This northern kingdom was known as the "house of Israel", "Ephraim", "Joseph", "Israel", or "Samaria", all labels used to point to this northern ten tribe kingdom after the split of 1 Kings 11.
4. God gave prophecies specific to each 'house'. For example, the Book of Hosea is mainly a Book of prophecy God gave about the ten northern tribe "kingdom of Israel", or "house of Israel". There is very little mention of Judah and the southern kingdom there. Likewise, most of the Book of Ezekiel is written to the ten tribe "house of Israel", because God told Ezekiel He made him a prophet to the "house of Israel". And most of the Books of Jeremiah and Daniel are written about and to the Jews. These separate prophecies in God's Word have continued in history to this day. So if one doesn't know this history, then they cannot properly understand just 'who' those prophecies are about, and who they are for, and won't even recognize them when they come to pass.
5. Jeroboam, king of Israel of the ten tribe northern "kingdom of Israel" feared that the ten tribes would travel south to Jerusalem to worship (proper worship then). So Jeroboam made two golden calf idols for the ten northern tribes to worship in the north, and he also made common priests of the people. Thus the Levites living among the northern ten tribes couldn't perform their duties, so they left and went south and joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. A small remnant out of the ten northern tribes that refused Jeroboam's idols also left and went south to join with Judah. The majority of Israelites stayed in the north with Jeroboam, king of Israel (2 Chronicles 11).
6. The two kingdoms had war against each other.
7. After a while, God finally got fed up with Jeroboam's calf idol worship and rebellion by the ten northern tribes. Per 2 Kings 17, in the days of king Hoshea of the northern kingdom, God caused the kings of Assyria to remove the ten tribes out of the holy land, and made them captive to Assyria and the cities of the Medes. Only the southern kingdom of JEWS of the "house of Judah" was left remaining in the holy land at Jerusalem-Judea.
8. Once the kings of Assyria removed the ten northern tribes of Israel, they placed five pagan peoples from Babylon in the northern holy lands instead. These became known as the Samaritans. The Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" would not have anything to do with them, the Samaritans being foreign pagan Gentiles. Understanding this history of the five pagan peoples from Babylon links with what Jesus was speaking about with the Samaritan woman at the well.
9. God prophesied what He would do to the northern ten tribes of the "kingdom of Israel" once He removed them captive to Assyria and cities of the Medes. He gave many of these prophecies through His prophet Hosea. The ten tribes would be further scattered, and would go fully into their false Baal worship they desired, which caused them to forget Him, and they would lose knowledge of their heritage as the larger portion of the people of Israel. God would not lose them, but they, the Jews of the southern kingdom, and the world, would lose the identity of the ten tribes of Israel, as it is among the majority still today (but a remnant was always to understand per God's promise).
10. After the majority of Israelites of the northern kingdom were removed, that left only the 3 tribe "kingdom of Judah" in the southern land. These became known as Israel, because the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi indeed are Israelites, though only a small portion of total Israelites. And they were the only seed of Israel left in the holy land after God removed the ten northern tribes (see 2 Kings 17:18). They and the strangers living with them, all became known as JEWS (per the Jewish historian Josephus). That title did not apply to the scattered ten northern tribes. It only applied to those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" that were under the reign of the house of David in Jerusalem.
11. About 120 years after God had scattered the ten northern tribe kingdom, the "house of Judah" also began to fall away from Him and rebel. So God brought Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon upon this 3 tribe kingdom of Judah in the south, and removed them captive to Babylon for 70 years. Neb destroyed the city of Jerusalem and Solomon's temple. After the 70 years, a small... remnant of Jews returned from Babylon back to Jerusalem, and rebuilt the city, wall and 2nd temple. Because God had taken care of the Jews while captive in Babylon, the majority of Jews of the "house of Judah" chose to stay in Babylon. But a majority of those Jews that stayed would be scattered later through the countries from Babylon, like the ten tribes had been scattered.
12. So when God's Word points to the Jews of the "house of Judah" after the split, you are not seeing the ten northern lost tribes of Israel there at all, which actually made up the majority of Israelites of old Israel. And even then, after the Jews return from their Babylon captivity, you are only seeing a small remnant of the Jews, the larger portion having chosen to remain in Babylon.
Many of today's Jews like to claim they only are God's chosen people, but that is not Biblically nor historically true about the chosen seed of Israel. Apostle Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea about the "house of Israel" linked with ALL believers on Jesus Christ in final (see Romans 9:24-26, a link to Hosea prophecy). And before coming to Romans 11, one is supposed... to understand why Paul linked the ten tribe "house of Israel" with believing Gentiles per the prophecies in the Book of Hosea that he quoted.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
That's right, Lord Jesus is still sitting on the right hand of The Father. Jesus has not yet come to inherit David's throne, because David's throne is an earthly throne.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this is nonsensical.
If he is going to wipe them out. there is no need of a remnant. because there would be no jews left.
Just like every other nation. they would be absorbed into the nation and would not longer be a people.
How many edomites do you know today, How about philistines or canaanites?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
No.
God is not finished with Israel. Ez 37 as well as many other prophets show us Israel will be restored as one nation. never to be split into two again. and they will have repented of their sins.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
God knows who Israel is
God does not need science to prove who his people is
God kept a remnant of his people. As he promised never to make a complete end of them
Because he is not done with them
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
God does not restore them in unbelief
He restores them after they repent..
they are not restored yet.. even to this day. they are still in the same state as they were in romans 11
Yes. Of which the throne and tabernacle of David were types/shadows. David's earthly rule and kingdom was a type/shadow of the heavenly. Jesus IS king of Israel.....the Israel of God. At the time Jesus came to earth, David's throne and tabernacle had been broken down....Israel had broken covenant with God and usurpers were on David's earthly throne, who were not his descendants. Jesus restored the throne and tabernacle of David when He began to rule. (Most of Israel refused His Kingship though, which was by faith not by an earthly crown - which Jesus fled from when some tried to crown Him.)
Remember that David was a conquering King who conquered Gentile territory including Jerusalem, and ruled over Gentiles...he united the 12 tribes and also made Israel into a small expanding empire. And that is the context in which the Acts 15 verse is written, explaining the gospel which has come not just to gather Israel but to the Gentiles as well. David's throne/tabernacle were restored in Christ who also rules over Gentiles and takes Gentile "territory" with the gospel. My reading of Acts is that the writer was saying that that OT passage from Amos is being fulfilled in Christ and His gospel which extends not only to the Jews but to the Gentiles as well. The writer was speaking of the present time that was then, not of a far future time.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That of course is not true, and is simply a doctrinal tradition from men, and not from God's Word. The throne of David has always been, still is, and always will be, an earthly throne. Just because you listen to men instead of God's written Word about it is why you don't understand that David's throne is still on earth today, waiting for Christ's coming to inherit it, as written.
The throne of David was removed from Jerusalem because of Judah's rebellion against God in the time of Jeremiah the prophet. And king Zedekiah's son heirs were all killed by the king of Babylon, but not Zedekiah's daughters, which Jeremiah was guardian over.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
He did say that He came to fulfill many things, even "all", referring to that generation to whom He spoke, saying "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." Matthew 23:36 and also Matthew 24:34
As for the rest of the world, He foretold what He would do next, saying, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:16
As for ruling as King, He also gave the time as being after He was crucified, not speaking of a distant future but a future that those to whom He was speaking at that time would see, saying "I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Matthew 26:64
But these things were not believed...resulting in strong delusion over these many generations.
Yes, He has always kept a remnant of His People.
Identified not by their physical DNA, but by their spiritual DNA.
Two spiritual genes.
Faithfulness and obedience to God and His Son.
And nothing else.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
lol. Then why does God differentiate saved jews and saved gentiles?
This is nonsensical. and has nothing to do with what an Israelite of the promise is
Paul identifies two Israels, "all Israel" and "of Israel".
Only "all Israel" will be saved. (Romans 11:26)
Explain how a saved Gentile is less saved than a saved Jew.
Yes, to the dispensational futurist (df), faithfulness and obedience are nonsensical.
Entirely unsurprising.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I never said otherwise. this is not about who is saved and who is not saved. it has to do with the question is God done with the nation of Israel.
Whi composes of saved jews and unsaved jews (blinded)
lol. I see where your coming from.
Let me guess, You believe works are required to maintain salvation?
It is entirely about who is saved and who is not saved.
I don't have to guess. You believe in salvation by physical DNA.
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