Is homosexuality something God can redeem?

[meshak]

In the above scripture account we have a God who instructs the Israelites to kill everyone else but to keep the virgin girls for themselves. We don't have to elaborate any further, do we? Is this an example of the right of God to be God and to tell us what is good for us? Really?

Am I rejecting the above account because I'm too stupid to understand why God would demonstrate 'what is good for us' in the form of such cruelty and immorality? If I'm wrong for questioning how such tales of attrocities can possibly come from a holy source then maybe you can help me understand ...?


I know you don't realize this but it's YOU that is asking this question of me as though YOU are speaking for God.


Again, you've made yourself the mouth-piece for God. You KNOW that God will be displeased with my questioning His actions as described by the authors of the Bible. Some people don't even bother to question. They just reject the entire Bible as a myth. At least I'm still here.

On what basis am I 'right' and God 'wrong'? Well, using the above presented scripture as a case in point I believe that I'm right to condemn the author's account of the tyrannical and immoral actions of God on the basis THAT such actions ARE tyrannical and immoral! Do you never stop to consider that such scriptures do not describe God at all but are simply the author's fanciful account of an imagined deity? I realize that my saying that immediately raises red flags within the 'fundy' mind. "This man cannot possibly be a Christian and yet he's on a Christian forum ...ban him!"

There are so many questions to which I have no answers. And yet, I can still relate to Jesus ...a man who, evidently, came to save mankind from the wrath of the God of the Torah. I cannot relate to the OT God at all! Another red flag for the 'fundies'. And yet, as said, there is something very special about Jesus. How DOES one reconcile Jesus with God? After all, both the OT and the NT were written by human authors. Well, that's what I'm still trying to work out.


I don't require scripture to tell me what is immoral and what is not immoral. The pillaging of one's tribe, the brutal killing of its occupants, the raping of young girls as okayed by God as being WRONG is NOT simply my personal opinion ...whether popular or otherwise. I also don't require scripture to support my 'opinion' that gay people should not be subject to vicious condemnation by some who REALLY seem to believe that they are 'the mouth-piece for God'.



<sigh> I call myself a Christian for the sole purpose of irritating you, meshak.

By the way, where does Jesus tell His followers that they are not of this world? Perhaps He does but I can't recall. Chapter and verse would be nice.

I ask the same - chapter and verse - of Jesus having scolded his followers for 'advocating GLBT' in their profile.

Here you go Kid, about His followers not being of this world:

John 15:19
If you belonged to the
world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the
world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have
given me, for they are yours.

John 17:14
I have given them your word and the world has
hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

John 17:15
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect
them from the evil one.

.John 17:16
They are not of the world,
even as I am not of it.

.John 18:36
Jesus said, "My
kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my
arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

 

[KCKID]

This is a belief that comes from God. And the freedom of the homosexuals are not being limited. They already have the right to marry. They just don't like to follow the restrictions of marriage, which everyone must follow.

You say that 'this' (the 'law' that pertains to marriage) comes from God. Well, to be more accurate, it comes from the Bible that was not written by God but by men. Yes, I realize that you believe the penmanship of these authors to have been guided by God, no ifs, ands or buts - and that could well be the case - but there is no actual evidence that this WAS the case. So, while you are placing all of your faith not in God but in the writings of men, it is possible for others who ALSO refer to themselves as Christians to come at it from a different perspective. I don't necessarily disregard the Bible's teachings - MUCH of the OT, to be sure - but I do try to be careful to consider the context of what society, the culure, the religious views, etc. were like when it was written. These days, I am trying to look at the sriptures and meditate on the deeper meanings and how they apply to the 'here and now'. I believe that one is doing the scriptures a great disservice by forcing their black and white interpretations on others who would rather interpret these same scriptures in varying shades of black and white. I use Jesus as my moral compass but I don't close myself off from lessons I could learn from elsewhere or from biblical interpretations that might differ from 'the traditional'. When any Christian, as a number of Christians do here, claim that they know all there is to know then that is when I see a red flag raised and am immediately put off whatever they have to say. It IS still quite Christian to use the phrase, "I don't know" or, "You could be right." Unfortunately, these terms don't appear to exist in the vocabulary of the prideful.

Your comment about homosexuals being allowed to marry is most insensitive, Selene, for obvious reasons. And, your additional remark about the restrictions of marriage that everyone must follow is about as militant and as cold and uncaring as one could get. What you say=you must live a lie and commit yourself to either unnatural celibacy or to someone of the wrong chemistry in order to pass muster with me (God?)

<sigh>

 

[Selene]

You say that 'this' (the 'law' that pertains to marriage) comes from God. Well, to be more accurate, it comes from the Bible that was not written by God but by men. Yes, I realize that you believe the penmanship of these authors to have been guided by God, no ifs, ands or buts - and that could well be the case - but there is no actual evidence that this WAS the case. So, while you are placing all of your faith not in God but in the writings of men, it is possible for others who ALSO refer to themselves as Christians to come at it from a different perspective. I don't necessarily disregard the Bible's teachings - MUCH of the OT, to be sure - but I do try to be careful to consider the context of what society, the culure, the religious views, etc. were like when it was written. These days, I am trying to look at the sriptures and meditate on the deeper meanings and how they apply to the 'here and now'. I believe that one is doing the scriptures a great disservice by forcing their black and white interpretations on others who would rather interpret these same scriptures in varying shades of black and white. I use Jesus as my moral compass but I don't close myself off from lessons I could learn from elsewhere or from biblical interpretations that might differ from 'the traditional'. When any Christian, as a number of Christians do here, claim that they know all there is to know then that is when I see a red flag raised and am immediately put off whatever they have to say. It IS still quite Christian to use the phrase, "I don't know" or, "You could be right." Unfortunately, these terms don't appear to exist in the vocabulary of the prideful.

Your comment about homosexuals being allowed to marry is most insensitive, Selene, for obvious reasons. And, your additional remark about the restrictions of marriage that everyone must follow is about as militant and as cold and uncaring as one could get. What you say=you must live a lie and commit yourself to either unnatural celibacy or to someone of the wrong chemistry in order to pass muster with me (God?)

<sigh>

Marriage is not just in the Bible, but it is also in tradition. Tradition tells you that marriage has always been between a man and a woman. There is no record of any marriage between a man and a man or between a woman and a woman. Therefore, marriage between a man and a woman is upheld not only in the Bible but in the traditions of mankind. The gay activists are the only ones who wants to change God's command and the tradition of marriage as it has always been.

 

[KCKID]

Here you go Kid, about His followers not being of this world:

John 15:19
If you belonged to the
world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the
world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have
given me, for they are yours.

John 17:14
I have given them your word and the world has
hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

John 17:15
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect
them from the evil one.

.John 17:16
They are not of the world,
even as I am not of it.

.John 18:36
Jesus said, "My
kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my
arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Okay, meshak ...you came through!

Next question/s, can you explain what 'not being of the world' means? Then, speaking in PRACTICAL terms, can you explain how YOU are 'not of this world'?

Seems to me that quoting terms such as these are no more than Christian rhetoric that are used only to, 1. make the listener feel inferior to the speaker, and, 2. to make the speaker feel superior to the listener. It's narcissism pure and simply. Do you, meshak, partake in the accumulation of wealth? Do you have a TV and (gasp) watch things that don't pertain to Jesus? Have you sold all of your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor as instructed by Jesus? Do you visit the sick and those who are in prison to encourage them with the message that you care? Maybe you do but I would guess that you and others that print pious words on a computer screen do not. 'The world' as spoken of by Jesus involves thought, motivation and ideas that all culminate in l-o-v-e. I actually see very little of this going on here and so I would have to seriously question how many of you are actually 'not of this world.'

 

[meshak]

Okay, meshak ...you came through!

Next question/s, can you explain what 'not being of the world' means? Then, speaking in PRACTICAL terms, can you explain how YOU are 'not of this world'?

Seems to me that quoting terms such as these are no more than Christian rhetoric that are used only to, 1. make the listener feel inferior to the speaker, and, 2. to make the speaker feel superior to the listener. It's narcissism pure and simply. Do you, meshak, partake in the accumulation of wealth? Do you have a TV and (gasp) watch things that don't pertain to Jesus? Have you sold all of your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor as instructed by Jesus? Do you visit the sick and those who are in prison to encourage them with the message that you care? Maybe you do but I would guess that you and others that print pious words on a computer screen do not. 'The world' as spoken of by Jesus involves thought, motivation and ideas that all culminate in l-o-v-e. I actually see very little of this going on here and so I would have to seriously question how many of you are actually 'not of this world.'

Ok, it is easy to know what Jesus is saying if you have been serving Him.

I have been serving Him so I can explain to you what Jesus is saying about the world.

This world is working for themselves, but His followers are working for God's kingdom. His followers concentrate on spreading God's kingdom.

Do you get so far?

Any problem before I go on?

 

[JackSafari]

This is a belief that comes from God.

It is simply your religious belief, others are equally allowed to disagree and believe God fully supports all sexual orientations.

Marriage is not just in the Bible, but it is also in tradition. Tradition tells you that marriage has always been between a man and a woman. There is no record of any marriage between a man and a man or between a woman and a woman. Therefore, marriage between a man and a woman is upheld not only in the Bible but in the traditions of mankind. The gay activists are the only ones who wants to change God's command and the tradition of marriage as it has always been.

Within your religious beliefs you are fully entitled to believe as you like. Others are entitled worship God in their own way, and decide for themselves who they want to marry.

 

[KCKID]

Ok, it is easy to know what Jesus is saying if you have been serving Him.

I have been serving Him so I can explain to you what Jesus is saying about the world.

This world is working for themselves, but His followers are working for God's kingdom. His followers concentrate on spreading God's kingdom.

Do you get so far?

Any problem before I go on?

Well, what you say is extremely vague. I more wanted a blow-by-blow rundown of what you do and don't do on a daily basis to indicate that you are 'not of this world'. I mean, how do OTHERS know that you are 'not of this world' when they encounter you? I was going to make some cheap crack about Mr, Spock and his pointy ears but I DO want to keep this at least partially serious.

Anyway, you asked if I had any problems (yes, I do) before you go on so there is evidently more to come . . . How about referring to the questions I asked of you?

The Old Testament is read in the light of the New Testament. Even in the New Testament, homosexuality is viewed as a sin. Anyone who commits sexual immorality will not enter God's kingdom. In the Old Testament, those who commit sins were killed because they were already dead. They will not have eternal life. That is the meaning behind the Old Testament.

As you see, Noah and his family were saved from the flood while the entire earth was flooded. The Bible stated that the entire earth was filled with wickedness except for Noah and his family. The moral of the story is that those who commit wicked deeds will be dead. They will not have eternal life in God's kingdom.

"The Old Testament is read in light of the New Testament." I have no idea what that means or why this excuses God of attrocities that caused pain and suffering for human beings whether they were wicked or not.

"Even in the New Testament homosexuality is viewed as a sin." I've covered this several times already so no point in doing so again.

"Anyone who commits sexual immorality will not enter God's kingdom." Well, there are a whole list of prohibitions pertaining to those who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And, we are ALL on that list to some degree or another. Why are homosexuals always 'the sinners' that are singled out from the list? Well, actually ...I sort of DO know.

"In the Old Testament, those who commit sins were killed because they are already dead." Well, that's a new interpretation of getting God off of the hook for having committed attrocities. So, how does the killing of babies and the raping of young girls fit into that interpretation?

"They will not have eternal life." But those who killed and raped (as commanded by God) will?

"That is the meaning behind the Old Testament." Well, okay ...that's a new interpretation that I should give due attention. It doesn't make much sense, but ...hey.

As for Noah and his family being the only ones who were not wicked, well, that's hard to believe. One cannot be human and not be at least a tad 'scripturally wicked'. That said, one might think that these ante-deluvians would have been fairly primitive with not much of a life or a life-style as comparative to ours. Surely, there would not have been too many opportunities available with which to encourage wicked behavior ...? I would take a guess and say that these people were into idol worship more so than their being sexually immoral per se, into murder or theft, etc. As we have already seen, God doesn't much care about the plundering of one's land, the slaughtering of its inhabitants and its livestock, ravaging it's women and raping its young virgins ...but he gets REALLY uptight when people worship any other god but He! So, I would guess that the ante-deluvians were into such things and THAT is why God drew plans to destroy their world as per the scripture. And, this is clearly the thread that we see running through the entire Bible ...that the majority of 'sins' have little do do with bad human behavior per se but have EVERYTHING to do with their NOT worshipping God. And THAT brings me back to the original topic and the New Testament references to homosexual behavior as associated with idolatry and pagan worship practices.

 

[KingJ]

There is another thread pertaining to why are people on this forum so nasty when they're supposed to be Christians ...something like that. Well, Bruce Gerencser spent 25 years pastoring Evangelical churches. He wrote an article entitled: Why Are Some Christians So Nasty?" The link to this item is here: http://brucegerencser.net/2011/07/why-are-some-christians-so-nasty?

While Gerencser left Christianity behind I'm not suggesting for one second that anyone here even consider doing so. There is a great deal to Christianity - to Jesus and what Jesus stood for - that is worth believing in and preserving. Even Gerencser believes that even though Christianity is not now for him personally. His article is an interesting read and I hope it helps people to realize that there may be things about themselves that, if recognized and changed if need be, will make them a more competent and more readily accepted witness for Christianity.

Kckid, surely you are not surprised if Christians attack a heretic / false teacher? You have finally come clean. I asked you what your agenda was when you first posted. Now we all know it without a shadow of doubt. You are a heretic / false teacher and from this post you have finally jumped out of your sheepskin.

"The semantics of scripture cannot be discussed until you accept all scripture as truth. Which you don't as pointed out in the closed homosexual thread. Hence discussion/debate with you is best paralelled to eating dung."

So, all scripture is truth and, as Christians, we are not allowed to ask questions, even discuss the scriptures that go against the very grain of every decent human being? Is that what you're saying, KingJ?

Here is a scripture that I don't even question but ABSOLUTELY REJECT as being the actions of a 'holy' God. And if you, KingJ, or any other professed Christian, accept this as being the actions of a 'holy God' then heaven help you! The scripture:

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones. and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him. keep alive for yourselves."

The complete scripture (for those who can stomach it) is found in Numbers 31:1-18

Under the command of God and Moses, the Israelites waged war against the Midianites, eventually killing everyone except the virgin female children. What should we make of this passage of scripture? On one hand, we have an example of a raging, murderous, genocidal God. But the fact that the virgin female children are spared indicates that God and Moses approve of Israelite men having sex with young girls.

In your view, KingJ, do I have to accept the truth of this story since it comes from the Bible as well as approve of the terrible things that God commanded as if in a religious stupor? Are my views on this scripture - and there are plenty more - that such a God as decribed here is a tyrant paralelled to eating dung?

You are using a devilish tactic to discredit the word. You surely know better! You are so good at discrediting other verses but have not studied up on this one....you lying devil. A Christian believes and accepts Psalm 136:1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. God gave you your brain. If God thought you would expose Him as ''bad'' He would have made you dumber, duh? .....A Christian should judge God fairly.....A Christian should be patient / longsuffering and give God the benefit of the doubt surely....He did just happen to give His life for us.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=763.

Is the God we read about above the very same God who forbids gay marriage?

Yes and you oppose Him. Go read Ezekiel 13.

 

[JackSafari]

KCKID, Not too long ago I worked with a fundamentalist Christian, he truly had the Bible memorized, and could quote pretty much all of it from memory. He believed men having sex with men was evil and perverted, but said lesbian sex was OK because there was nothing specific in the bible that forbid two women from having sex... He also had a weakness for porn, his personal favorite vice was watching girl-on-girl porn. His rationalization was that God only disapproved of gay sex between men, not gay sex between women. Just made me chuckle because it demonstrates that everyone uses the bible to fit their beliefs, picking out what justifies their personal beliefs, and ignoring the contradictions.

There is another thread pertaining to why are people on this forum so nasty when they're supposed to be Christians ...something like that. Well, Bruce Gerencser spent 25 years pastoring Evangelical churches. He wrote an article entitled: Why Are Some Christians So Nasty?" The link to this item is here: http://brucegerencser.net/2011/07/why-are-some-christians-so-nasty?
.

Good Link. I shall add Carlton Pearson, a Christian minister of a church with 5000+. He felt the need to follow his own path rather than blindly accept teachings that rejected others (ie homosexuals). He was officially labeled a 'Heretic' and expelled from his church for preaching 'inclusion'. Its a great inspirational story as heard on This American Life: Heretics

 

[KingJ]

Just made me chuckle because it demonstrates that everyone uses the bible to fit their beliefs, picking out what justifies their personal beliefs, and ignoring the contradictions.

If that guy were here he would be torn to pieces on scripture just as has been done to you and kckid. Chuckle chuckle.

Evade, dodge and run in circles as much as you like, you have been exposed as a false teacher, deal with it before God deals with you.

 

[KCKID]

Kckid, surely you are not surprised if Christians attack a heretic / false teacher? You have finally come clean. I asked you what your agenda was when you first posted. Now we all know it without a shadow of doubt. You are a heretic / false teacher and from this post you have finally jumped out of your sheepskin.

How can this man be a false teacher if he has forsaken Christianity? How can he be a heretic if he's no longer a Christian? What do the experiences of this man have to do with 'my agenda' as you put it?

I gave my reasons for presenting the article. I also gave a viewpoint as to why Christianity is worth upholding. Did I strike a nerve or something?

You are using a devilish tactic to discredit the word. You surely know better! You are so good at discrediting other verses but have not studied up on this one....you lying devil. A Christian believes and accepts Psalm 136:1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good. His love endures forever. God gave you your brain. If God thought you would expose Him as ''bad'' He would have made you dumber, duh? .....A Christian should judge God fairly.....A Christian should be patient / longsuffering and give God the benefit of the doubt surely....He did just happen to give His life for us.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=763.

Yes and you oppose Him. Go read Ezekiel 13.

How am I using a devilish tactic? The Bible stories are there for anyone to read. I've already stated that I can't relate to the God of the Old Testament and I can't. And that's the truth. Does it make me devilish because I'm being honest?

If that guy were here he would be torn to pieces on scripture just as has been done to you and kckid. Chuckle chuckle.

Evade, dodge and run in circles as much as you like, you have been exposed as a false teacher, deal with it before God deals with you.

Is this Christianity?

 

[KingJ]

KCKID, on 04 Apr 2013 - 13:27, said:
How can this man be a false teacher if he has forsaken Christianity? How can he be a heretic if he's no longer a Christian? What do the experiences of this man have to do with 'my agenda' as you put it?

I gave my reasons for presenting the article. I also gave a viewpoint as to why Christianity is worth upholding. Did I strike a nerve or something?

I don't care what that guy said. You said ''There is another thread pertaining to why are people on this forum so nasty when they're supposed to be Christians''.

KCKID, on 04 Apr 2013 - 13:27, said:
How am I using a devilish tactic? The Bible stories are there for anyone to read. I've already stated that I can't relate to the God of the Old Testament and I can't. And that's the truth. Does it make me devilish because I'm being honest?

You have also said you reject Paul's teaching. You have shown you have a depth of knowledge on scripture, you can speak in higher English, you boastfully challenge me to take you on with scripture.....and yet you failed completely to see the truth of verses like Psalm 136:1 influencing your view of numbers 31 let alone the relevance of numbers 25. You are being dishonest in your posts.

KCKID, on 04 Apr 2013 - 13:27, said:
Is this Christianity?

Titus 1:11-13 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach for the sake of dishonest gain. 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

1 Thess 5:21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world

2 Tim 3:16 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

A Christian welcomes rebuke and correction from scripture. If some can tear my belief to pieces with scripture, I welcome it. If we live by our own opinions and the flesh we will die! Rom 8:13.

I am done talking to you and Jack. Truth goes in one ear and out the other. Your hearts are not right.

 

[meshak]

Well, what you say is extremely vague. I more wanted a blow-by-blow rundown of what you do and don't do on a daily basis to indicate that you are 'not of this world'. I mean, how do OTHERS know that you are 'not of this world' when they encounter you? I was going to make some cheap crack about Mr, Spock and his pointy ears but I DO want to keep this at least partially serious.

Anyway, you asked if I had any problems (yes, I do) before you go on so there is evidently more to come . . . How about referring to the questions I asked of you?



"The Old Testament is read in light of the New Testament." I have no idea what that means or why this excuses God of attrocities that caused pain and suffering for human beings whether they were wicked or not.

"Even in the New Testament homosexuality is viewed as a sin." I've covered this several times already so no point in doing so again.

"Anyone who commits sexual immorality will not enter God's kingdom." Well, there are a whole list of prohibitions pertaining to those who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And, we are ALL on that list to some degree or another. Why are homosexuals always 'the sinners' that are singled out from the list? Well, actually ...I sort of DO know.

"In the Old Testament, those who commit sins were killed because they are already dead." Well, that's a new interpretation of getting God off of the hook for having committed attrocities. So, how does the killing of babies and the raping of young girls fit into that interpretation?

"They will not have eternal life." But those who killed and raped (as commanded by God) will?

"That is the meaning behind the Old Testament." Well, okay ...that's a new interpretation that I should give due attention. It doesn't make much sense, but ...hey.

As for Noah and his family being the only ones who were not wicked, well, that's hard to believe. One cannot be human and not be at least a tad 'scripturally wicked'. That said, one might think that these ante-deluvians would have been fairly primitive with not much of a life or a life-style as comparative to ours. Surely, there would not have been too many opportunities available with which to encourage wicked behavior ...? I would take a guess and say that these people were into idol worship more so than their being sexually immoral per se, into murder or theft, etc. As we have already seen, God doesn't much care about the plundering of one's land, the slaughtering of its inhabitants and its livestock, ravaging it's women and raping its young virgins ...but he gets REALLY uptight when people worship any other god but He! So, I would guess that the ante-deluvians were into such things and THAT is why God drew plans to destroy their world as per the scripture. And, this is clearly the thread that we see running through the entire Bible ...that the majority of 'sins' have little do do with bad human behavior per se but have EVERYTHING to do with their NOT worshipping God. And THAT brings me back to the original topic and the New Testament references to homosexual behavior as associated with idolatry and pagan worship practices.

I just told you, His servant are working for God's kingdom, not for themselves.

You still dont get it do you?

Jesus tells His followers to "make disciples of all nations.... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

 

[KCKID]

I just told you, His servant are working for God's kingdom, not for themselves.

You still dont get it do you?

Jesus tells His followers to "make disciples of all nations.... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

Well, I see vague words on a screen. What I don't see is an answer to my question as to what an average day entails in your life that has other people that you encounter believing that you are not of this world. I even tried to help out by giving you some questions to respond to a few posts back. What do you say, what do you do, how do you act that would have people say, "Wow, meshak is not of this world!" ...?

 

[Selene]

Well, what you say is extremely vague. I more wanted a blow-by-blow rundown of what you do and don't do on a daily basis to indicate that you are 'not of this world'. I mean, how do OTHERS know that you are 'not of this world' when they encounter you? I was going to make some cheap crack about Mr, Spock and his pointy ears but I DO want to keep this at least partially serious.

Anyway, you asked if I had any problems (yes, I do) before you go on so there is evidently more to come . . . How about referring to the questions I asked of you?



"The Old Testament is read in light of the New Testament." I have no idea what that means or why this excuses God of attrocities that caused pain and suffering for human beings whether they were wicked or not.

"Even in the New Testament homosexuality is viewed as a sin." I've covered this several times already so no point in doing so again.

"Anyone who commits sexual immorality will not enter God's kingdom." Well, there are a whole list of prohibitions pertaining to those who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. And, we are ALL on that list to some degree or another. Why are homosexuals always 'the sinners' that are singled out from the list? Well, actually ...I sort of DO know.

"In the Old Testament, those who commit sins were killed because they are already dead." Well, that's a new interpretation of getting God off of the hook for having committed attrocities. So, how does the killing of babies and the raping of young girls fit into that interpretation?

"They will not have eternal life." But those who killed and raped (as commanded by God) will?

"That is the meaning behind the Old Testament." Well, okay ...that's a new interpretation that I should give due attention. It doesn't make much sense, but ...hey.

As for Noah and his family being the only ones who were not wicked, well, that's hard to believe. One cannot be human and not be at least a tad 'scripturally wicked'. That said, one might think that these ante-deluvians would have been fairly primitive with not much of a life or a life-style as comparative to ours. Surely, there would not have been too many opportunities available with which to encourage wicked behavior ...? I would take a guess and say that these people were into idol worship more so than their being sexually immoral per se, into murder or theft, etc. As we have already seen, God doesn't much care about the plundering of one's land, the slaughtering of its inhabitants and its livestock, ravaging it's women and raping its young virgins ...but he gets REALLY uptight when people worship any other god but He! So, I would guess that the ante-deluvians were into such things and THAT is why God drew plans to destroy their world as per the scripture. And, this is clearly the thread that we see running through the entire Bible ...that the majority of 'sins' have little do do with bad human behavior per se but have EVERYTHING to do with their NOT worshipping God. And THAT brings me back to the original topic and the New Testament references to homosexual behavior as associated with idolatry and pagan worship practices.

Haven't you heard the phrase "Dead in your sins"? (See Colossians 2:13). When a person commits a sin (even if that sin is homosexuality), they are separated from God. That is what is means to be "dead in your sins". Those who are separated from God do not have eternal life. They are dead in their sins.

It is simply your religious belief, others are equally allowed to disagree and believe God fully supports all sexual orientations.



Within your religious beliefs you are fully entitled to believe as you like. Others are entitled worship God in their own way, and decide for themselves who they want to marry.

God created men and women. He did not create homosexual tendency or pedophilia tendency or any person attracted to animals. Those are all disorders and choices that people make.

 

[meshak]

Well, I see vague words on a screen. What I don't see is an answer to my question as to what an average day entails in your life that has other people that you encounter believing that you are not of this world. I even tried to help out by giving you some questions to respond to a few posts back. What do you say, what do you do, how do you act that would have people say, "Wow, meshak is not of this world!" ...?

How? because I and my family dont abide by the world's standards and getting involve with political stuff like gay rights movement.

We dont even vote. We dont cerebrate any worldly cerebration. We are rescued form those burdens. Jesus says His yoke is easy. It is so stressful to live by world's standard, trying to catch up with the Joneses.

Your posts are so depressing. It seems that all you are concerned is yours and other's sexuality.

If you dont like Jesus' standards or teachings, you should not claim to be His follower or Christian, friend.

Are you still confused?

 

[KCKID]

I don't care what that guy said. You said ''There is another thread pertaining to why are people on this forum so nasty when they're supposed to be Christians''.

But, there IS a thread by that or by a similar title that I had nothing to do with. Did I say something that isn't true?

You have also said you reject Paul's teaching. You have shown you have a depth of knowledge on scripture, you can speak in higher English, you boastfully challenge me to take you on with scripture.....and yet you failed completely to see the truth of verses like Psalm 136:1 influencing your view of numbers 31 let alone the relevance of numbers 25. You are being dishonest in your posts.

If you feel that I'm being dishonest - and that would be unintentional - then you need to let me know specifically where I'm doing so instead of being so vague. You know as well as I do that - while slightly off-topic - the God of the Old Testament is poles apart in temperament than is Jesus of the New Testament. THAT is a FACT! There are MANY texts - as you also know - in the OT where it would be difficult to separate God from Satan based on many of God's cruel and tyrannical actions. Why are you also not appalled by these things? Are you afraid that if you question the actions of God you'll tick him off?

Anyway, the reason I've even brought up such texts is to demonstrate that whatever occurred in the Old Testament is totally foreign to our way of thinking. That also applies to the bizarre commands and the over-the-top punishments for not adhering to those commands as found in the OT. Okay? That said, I've said - and I repeat - that I'll discuss/bebate/whatever those texts pertaining to homosexuality as found in the NT with you. You believe mainstream Christianity's version of those texts that appear to forbid homosexuality across the board. "I" don't and I'm willing to tell you and others WHY I don't.

Titus 1:11-13 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach for the sake of dishonest gain. 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

1 Thess 5:21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world

2 Tim 3:16 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

A Christian welcomes rebuke and correction from scripture. If some can tear my belief to pieces with scripture, I welcome it. If we live by our own opinions and the flesh we will die! Rom 8:13.

I am done talking to you and Jack. Truth goes in one ear and out the other. Your hearts are not right.

It seems that the majority of Christians don't know that 'the scriptures' referred to as 'welcoming rebuke and correction' were those as found in the Torah. The NT did not exist at the time of writing these epistles. These people could not possibly have known that their writings would one day finish up alongside the Torah and become known as 'the New Testament.' So, this brings us back to 'which' scriptures contained in the Torah do we use for 'rebuke and correction'? I mean, do we still execute disobedient children (as per the Torah) to discourage rebellion against parents? Do we still stone to death (as per the Torah) those who profane the command to keep the Sabbath? Are adulterers to be stoned until dead as per the Torah? Etc. Etc. WHERE do we draw the line as to the commands we are still to keep and the commands that are no longer in force? Since we are not told which commands were revoked and which are still in play from the scriptures, how do we KNOW which commands still apply and which don't? Why is is taboo for Christians to say, "We don't know everything" ...? Why is it taboo for Christians to say, "You could be right" ...? Why do they instead say angrily, "WE know everything because we have the Spirit residing in us and YOU don't" ...? Why do they instead say angrily, "YOU are wrong!" ...? I just don't understand why it has to be this way.

How? because I and my family dont abide by the world's standards and getting involve with political stuff like gay rights movement.

We dont even vote. We dont cerebrate any worldly cerebration. We are rescued form those burdens. Jesus says His yoke is easy. It is so stressful to live by world's standard, trying to catch up with the Joneses.

Your posts are so depressing. It seems that all you are concerned is yours and other's sexuality.

If you dont like Jesus' standards or teachings, you should not claim to be His follower or Christian, friend.

Are you still confused?

Well, I'm less confused than I was, meshak. Your post speaks volumes about you. I must confess that, since I choose not to live in such a pious (boring?) bubble as you appear to, I cannot possibly refer to myself as being a Christian as per your standards. You make your hope of heaven sound like a real fun place! Oh, that's right ...having fun is a no-no . . .

Anyway, you are who you are and I believe that is your right.

 

[meshak]

But, there IS a thread by that or by a similar title that I had nothing to do with. Did I say something that isn't true?


If you feel that I'm being dishonest - and that would be unintentional - then you need to let me know specifically where I'm doing so instead of being so vague. You know as well as I do that - while slightly off-topic - the God of the Old Testament is poles apart in temperament than is Jesus of the New Testament. THAT is a FACT! There are MANY texts - as you also know - in the OT where it would be difficult to separate God from Satan based on many of God's cruel and tyrannical actions. Why are you also not appalled by these things? Are you afraid that if you question the actions of God you'll tick him off?

Anyway, the reason I've even brought up such texts is to demonstrate that whatever occurred in the Old Testament is totally foreign to our way of thinking. That also applies to the bizarre commands and the over-the-top punishments for not adhering to those commands as found in the OT. Okay? That said, I've said - and I repeat - that I'll discuss/bebate/whatever those texts pertaining to homosexuality as found in the NT with you. You believe mainstream Christianity's version of those texts that appear to forbid homosexuality across the board. "I" don't and I'm willing to tell you and others WHY I don't.


It seems that the majority of Christians don't know that 'the scriptures' referred to as 'welcoming rebuke and correction' were those as found in the Torah. The NT did not exist at the time of writing these epistles. These people could not possibly have known that their writings would one day finish up alongside the Torah and become known as 'the New Testament.' So, this brings us back to 'which' scriptures contained in the Torah do we use for 'rebuke and correction'? I mean, do we still execute disobedient children (as per the Torah) to discourage rebellion against parents? Do we still stone to death (as per the Torah) those who profane the command to keep the Sabbath? Are adulterers to be stoned until dead as per the Torah? Etc. Etc. WHERE do we draw the line as to the commands we are still to keep and the commands that are no longer in force? Since we are not told which commands were revoked and which are still in play from the scriptures, how do we KNOW which commands still apply and which don't? Why is is taboo for Christians to say, "We don't know everything" ...? Why is it taboo for Christians to say, "You could be right" ...? Why do they instead say angrily, "WE know everything because we have the Spirit residing in us and YOU don't" ...? Why do they instead say angrily, "YOU are wrong!" ...? I just don't understand why it has to be this way.



Well, I'm less confused than I was, meshak. Your post speaks volumes about you. I must confess that, since I choose not to live in such a pious (boring?) bubble as you appear to, I cannot possibly refer to myself as being a Christian as per your standards. You make your hope of heaven sound like a real fun place! Oh, that's right ...having fun is a no-no . . .

Anyway, you are who you are and I believe that is your right.

I dont think Jesus' teaching are boring. In fact it is so peaceful that we dont have headaches and depression like many non-believers experience.

That's why you should not call yourself you are Christian because you think His teachings are boring.. Do you get that?

BTW, it is not my standards, It is Jesus' standards I chose to live by.

 

[KCKID]

Haven't you heard the phrase "Dead in your sins"? (See Colossians 2:13). When a person commits a sin (even if that sin is homosexuality), they are separated from God. That is what is means to be "dead in your sins". Those who are separated from God do not have eternal life. They are dead in their sins.

Whenever anyone presents such a scripture I feel that I have to throw it back at them. Do you, Selene, sin? If you do then you are separated from God ...right? Are you therefore dead in your sins? Why then, do you appear to be applying this verse to others but excluding yourself?

Also, where does Jesus as being the bearer of our sins fit into this?

God created men and women. He did not create homosexual tendency or pedophilia tendency or any person attracted to animals. Those are all disorders and choices that people Make.

Homosexuals ARE men and women ...as created by God as you say. And, if you're going to give a blanket statement that God did not create (I'll stick to homosexual) homosexuals then you need to back that up ...either scientifically or with the scriptures. Opinions are none other than opinions. If homosexuality is a disorder or a choice or natural or something else then you need to back that up with facts. This is a Christian DEBATE forum, in this case pertaining to a particular topic in which opposing arguments are put forward. Again, one's personal opinion doesn't constitute 'an argument'.

I dont think Jesus' teaching are boring. In fact it is so peaceful that we dont have headaches and depression like many non-believers experience.

That's why you should not call yourself you are Christian because you think His teachings are boring.. Do you get that?

BTW, it is not my standards, It is Jesus' standards I chose to live by.

Alright, by your definition I'm not a Christian ...okay? Are we friends again . . .?

 

[meshak]

Whenever anyone presents such a scripture I feel that I have to throw it back at them. Do you, Selene, sin? If you do then you are separated from God ...right? Are you therefore dead in your sins? Why then, do you appear to be applying this verse to others but excluding yourself?

Also, where does Jesus as being the bearer of our sins fit into this?


Homosexuals ARE men and women ...as created by God as you say. And, if you're going to give a blanket statement that God did not create (I'll stick to homosexual) homosexuals then you need to back that up ...either scientifically or with the scriptures. Opinions are none other than opinions. If homosexuality is a disorder or a choice or natural or something else then you need to back that up with facts. This is a Christian DEBATE forum, in this case pertaining to a particular topic in which opposing arguments are put forward. Again, one's personal opinion doesn't constitute 'an argument'.



Alright, by your definition I'm not a Christian ...okay? Are we friends again . . .?

It is not by my definition. It is by your action. Be honest and we are friends again.